Assassin Deception Spec significantly weaker per level than other classes?

[Cleverbits]

Reason?

 

No Heals

 

AT ALL.

 

Our spec revolves around surging charge and as such we cant really use dark unless we want to gimp our DPS.

 

Dark Charge is our Bear from.

 

You see....other classes like say...merc.

 

They have a heal spec but even if they dont spec for it they still get 2 heals to use in case of emergencies or to keep their tank pet up in gold mob fights.

 

Now take say Juggs

 

They have a tank spec...but even if they dont spec it they still wear heavy armor and have saber ward and a few other tank CDs.

 

Now take Sins

 

The ONLY way we can take effectivly is with Dark Charge....which boosts our armor and def to tank levels and gives us a nice little heal proc.

 

But again..doing that negates the whole point of deception in the first place...since we lose surging discharge and proc.

 

Thus we dont have the 1-2 tank goodies the other DPS classes have to make life eaiser or the 1-2 heal goodies like Sorcs.

 

 

Thus we have a Tank companion that we CANT heal or help in anyway (I swear khem is bugged or something as well...since he goes down WAAAAY too fast) or a heal companion in which case we cant get behind our targets to Maul.

 

So yea...its a lose lose but I still leveled 1-50 as deception out of spite

 

We have Deflection which increases melee and ranged defenses by 50% for 12 seconds.

 

We have Dark Ward which gives a 15% increase to shield chance for 20 seconds, or 8 blocks.

 

Both of the above skills can be used in any stance.

 

We can use Low Slash / Electrocute to stun the target and setup behind them for a Maul after Khem is dead.

 

We can use Jolt to silence a target and lock them out of that ability for 4 seconds.

 

The point is we have plenty of utility to survive, but you have to think about what you need to do to stay alive during the fight. When fighting Zash I kited her all over the pillars in the temple while waiting for my stuns to come off of CD after Khem died. Since a lot of the abilities she uses are on a cast timer, you can use LoS to stop her cast and get a hit in while running to the next pillar.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Cleverbits

[PessimiStick]

We have Dark Ward which gives a 15% increase to shield chance for 20 seconds, or 8 blocks.

 

Both of the above skills can be used in any stance.

 

Dark Ward doesn't actually do anything unless you're wearing a shield, which no one should be while leveling.

[IMPERIOR]

Hey Everyone,

 

SPOILER ALERT- there are some spoilers of the Inquisitor storyline below.

 

A BioWare GM asked that I post this issue here to the forums to see if we can get some community feedback regarding the underpowered nature of the Assassin Deception spec. I have found leveling mine to 50, and buying all the custom mods I can to beef up his abilities as I was leveling, that the Sith Inquisitor Assassin Deception spec is consistently unpowered for the level in comparison to other classes.

 

This has taught me to learn about and to use every single ability the assassin has and when to use it, but it still requires me to be much higher than the level and there are just not enough drops or commendations to equip both me and my companion(s). At 50 I can start decking out everyone with Xalek being the easiest one to deck out in my old gear.

 

So during my 50 level journey, I have found that I always need to be 3 levels higher than the zones I'm going in, especially when fighting gold mobs. At 3 levels higher, the fight is still very tough to win but doable tho companion death almost always occurs. At the level of the mob or 1-2 level above I have found it mostly impossible to win. It took me a while to realize that without the stealth attack combos at the beginning of each of these storyline and boss fights, Deception Spec'd assassins are always at a disadvantage. After a plethora of deaths, I quit trying to fight these mobs outright. I can remember the Vash and Thanaton in the dreamwalking quests as the examples that stand out most clearly.

 

Also for fights where the gold mobs has adds, I always have to kill the adds quickly, then Force Cloak before I die, heal, and then go back for the gold mob. Usually my companion is dead by the time the adds are all finally dead.

 

Has anyone else playing the Deception Assassin run into this issue?

 

The Sith Inquisitor is a wonderful storyline, just wished the Deception Assassin wasn't so underpowered. Please chime in if you've either played or are playing a Deception Assassin Sith Inquisitor. Thanks everyone.

 

From my point of view the DECEPTION built assassin discussion has 3 different topics to cover, namely:

1. Getting to 50 a.k.a. leveling

2. Ops and quite a few FP's

3. PvP

 

Ad 1:

When leveling, many seem to ignore the equipment of their companion. A well-equipped companion makes questing or simple grinding much easier.

As for the selection of companions: Khem Val can be a nice tank, given that you instruct him properly. By this I mean that you shouldn't just send him in, but take control where needed, e.g. disable AoE taunt/damage when you are fighting in close quarters and have a stunned mob right next to you.

For fights against elites as well as big storyline fights, Talos and Dark Charge seem somewhat inevitable, because the trade-off in damage more than makes up in survivability. Noteworthy though, as the deception tree is focused on Surging Charge.

Endgame tanking PvE-wise is definitely Xalek in terms of efficiency, simply because he can take all the equipment you don't need anymore, therefore offering an easy way to equip a companion (most likely with) champion gear and alike.

Overall, I have to agree with the OP concerning elites: Keep the elite incapacitated as long as possible, kill all the trash around him. Revive companion. Kill elite.

 

Ad 2:

Big issue. Getting into OPs and even some flashpoints (Kaon anyone?) is rather difficult. This is mainly thanks to some design issues. AoE damage doesn't bother most ranged classes, as it is often focused arount the (boss) mob. Whilst melee dd's have to retreat, get damage etc. the ranged classes just keep firing. This means we have forced breaks where ranged dd's can keep up hitting and give the healer(s) additionally hard time. Furthermore, if enemies are coming in the ranged classes can start hitting earlier. We cannot even this out as our melee damage ain't higher than from ranged dd's and we also lack auras to compensate for our initial lack of damage, like the marauder can.

In its current state, I fully understand any ops leader prefering ranged dd's, as it increases the ops survivability of the team. The fun aspect of being dependent on "charity invites" is another topic...

 

Ad 3:

3 factors: Skill, Gear, Level. Pre-50 the real level also has an influence, therefore I will only comment on the 50 bracket. One issue is that - given good players in the warzone - an assassin will never be on top of the damage dealers. This is simply due to the fact that we are very limited in ranged and AoE damage, leaving us to single-target melee damage. Unfortunately, the Surging Charge tree (Saber Conduit, Static Charges) is utterly useless - not only in pvp - and a waste of 5 points. Basically, in pvp you will simply not be able to get the stack full. Do the maths and you will see why (or check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp4MOp6uZHA, around 1:40 onwards for the explanation). Stealth and esp. Force Cloak go down with dot's. This means that in chokepoints (e.g. Voidstar doors), you don't even have to bother to use it for vanishing purposes (though it still has the increased force reg. rate). Same goes for 1v1 with a half-decent opponent, as he will strike you with dot's to avoid losing you to stealth. Another thing is that Maul is somewhat bugged, where you simply can't use it although behind the target (and I am not talking about lag or ping issues here).

Essentially - at least for me - a deception assassin is stuck with dark charge unless in 1vs1 situations (rare in warzones) or you have a good puller/healer (almost always requires a pvp team).

 

To sum the text wall up:

- Leveling: Doable, needs more effort/time than e.g. a bounty hunter.

- Ops/FPs: Needs to be reviewed to make assassins - and melee classes in genereal - more viable.

- PvP: Given equal tier gear and skill, the assassin is kinda squishy compared to other classes.

 

On the plus side:

- Giving us a hard time makes us better at understading the class and will greatly benefit when the necessary buffs come.

- In ops and flashpoints, being underestimated at least saves us from being blamed.

- In pvp, it's rather simple to get 6+ medals as an assassin (heal, assassinate, guard = 3 certain medals each time).

 

Solution:

- Surging Charge: Make Saber Conduit and Static Charges worthwile.

- Maul: Fix the bug, maybe even increase the positioning angle.

- Stealth: Do something about DoT's removing stealth.

- Getting cheeky here: Give us some sort of ranged damage without using recklessness.

 

Just my 2 cents, I'm pretty sure someone will disagree.

[Murderous]

A BioWare GM asked that I post this issue here to the forums to see if we can get some community feedback regarding the underpowered nature of the Assassin Deception spec. I have found leveling mine to 50, and buying all the custom mods I can to beef up his abilities as I was leveling, that the Sith Inquisitor Assassin Deception spec is consistently unpowered for the level in comparison to other classes.

 

 

No. Just no. Level up some of the other classes and then get back to us.

[Murderous]

I've found that, because it's a stealth class, I skip alot of trash. So I end up usually 2 to 3 levels below the recommended level when I travel to a new planet. When I start questing, I have no problem at all with any of the content...even the bosses. If I see 2 strongs or a single elite, within 2 to 3 levels of me, it's dead. I'm not sure what the problem is...I'm a mediocre gamer, certainly not anywhere near as good as some players I've encountered, and my Assassin is one of the strongest toons I have...and I have one of each.

[Murderous]

Dark Ward doesn't actually do anything unless you're wearing a shield, which no one should be while leveling.

 

 

If you would kind sir, please explain this statement.

[Mortec]

Just to go back a bit, because it's close to my thoughts.

 

Leveling fortunately isn't the issue as much as beating the storyline bosses and taking on multiple silvers or waves of opponents. The issue I and a lot of others had was that this spec feels weaker than all the others. [snip] But to be clear, playing a Dec Assassin is more challenging, but not less fun and the point of this thread is to see if we're missing something obvious or if the Dec Assassin spec itself really is underpowered.

 

For some reason, when/if someone states something similar to the above quoted, there will "always" be a response along the lines of "I had no troubles/learn rotations/skills/what-have-you".

 

Even if you had no troubles with content, (all of it/parts of it/none of it), does not mean that there's nothing - I don't want to say 'wrong', but something.. lacking - in this spec.

 

So far, I've not had any particular problems. By all means, I've had a fair share of beatdowns/troublesome encounters and so forth, (the one that gave me the biggest problem was that dang bug-queen-thingie on Balmorra, heh), but I've still managed.

 

I do think there is something lacking to the Deception tree - I really do. I wish I could point to a multi-page thesis on the subject with charts, comparisons etc., but I can't.

 

Maybe lacking isn't the right word.

 

Perhaps we need some tuning?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mortec

[punman]

Essentially - at least for me - a deception assassin is stuck with dark charge unless in 1vs1 situations (rare in warzones) or you have a good puller/healer (almost always requires a pvp team).

 

I'm sorry your experience with Deception was less than stellar. It's not that way for everyone.

 

hint: if you're stuck in dark charge, you're doing it wrong.

[IMPERIOR]

I'm sorry your experience with Deception was less than stellar. It's not that way for everyone.

 

hint: if you're stuck in dark charge, you're doing it wrong.

 

I do like playing my deception assassin and will do.

No complaining here, just stating how it is at least for many.

 

I'm not stuck in dark charge, for PUG's it's just more useful most of the time. To a large degree due to zerging. In groups it has its usefulness.

 

If your opinion is that surging charge is always (or even most of the time) better, please elaborate, because I highly doubt that for pvp.

[PessimiStick]

If you would kind sir, please explain this statement.

Leveling in tank gear is slower than leveling in DPS gear, and there is a HUGE difference in Force Power between Shields and Foci.

[LordbishopX]

Leveling in tank gear is slower than leveling in DPS gear,and there is a HUGE difference in Force Power between Shields and Foci.

 

 

If deception it's best to have both imho and switch when its is warranted vs harder gold elites and champions mobs dark charge mode and shield = easier fight for sure. For trash and strong mobs and normal elites surging charge and rock the house. I always have a focus and a shield at my current gear level.

[Vonrictus]

If deception it's best to have both imho and switch when its is warranted vs harder gold elites and champions mobs dark charge mode and shield = easier fight for sure. For trash and strong mobs and normal elites surging charge and rock the house. I always have a focus and a shield at my current gear level.

 

No offense, but if I'm having to carry around two different sets of gear just to level there is something inherently wrong with the class. That means I'm spending twice as much time and credits as every other class that can just put their face in the keyboard and level past the content.

 

I'm level 41 and do 'ok' now that I have our healer, but all be damned if i'm going to go broke keeping myself in two sets of gear. The whole concept of different sets of gear is one that started in WoW and really ruins immersion.

 

It's like hold on hold on mr. Republic guy I'm not in my expertise gear or hold on hold on gold elite baddie I'm not in my 'tanking' gear....dont start fighting me yet. It is really a stupid mechanic that wasn't always this way in MMOs.

[StainedLotus]

I use a shadow and a sin and what do is go full infiltration/deception but use combat stance/dark charge. Get my healer companion and be a god of the battlefield. Need to use shadow strike/maul? You have a bunch of stuns to rotate between. You can survive while doing less damage. Switch back to surging charge when you do flashpoints with a true tank.

[Midnight_Malice]

The whole concept of different sets of gear is one that started in WoW and really ruins immersion.

 

Incorrect, different gearsets existed in early FFXI which came out 2 years before WoW. Most people carry around the equivalent of 3-4 gearsets, and macro in specific pieces for individual abilties. I had over 60 pieces of gear for my Monk alone at endgame.

 

You dont HAVE to do anything. If you choose to, fine, if you don't, thats your choice. You are the one that pays for the game, play how you want. I consistantly told this to people in FFXI when they said I NEEDED a certian piece of gear. I always said, pay for my sub, then you can tell me what I need. Same goes here, but you have to deal with the repercussions. Maybe you won't get that raid invite because you aren't as well geared as someone else. It's your choice.

 

And BTW, I leveled from 1-50 as Deception just fine in a single set of gear, upgrading where nessessary, and using tank companions the whole time.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Midnight_Malice

[Hxxr]

So far my Assassin is just level 30 and I can't plow through mobs without ever stopping like with my Bounty Hunter on 50 with Mako behind me. But then again I still lack a healing companion for the Sith.

But so far none of the 2+ heroic missions where any trouble for Khem and myself. So I can't really imagine how normal quests would be difficult any time soon.

[Baizak]

OP, I have to say I just don't see it. I use Khem as my companion, I am sure to keep his armor upgraded and we shred mobs. Whatever he is attacking I attack from behind and we fly through mobs, with little to no downtime at all.

 

Some fights do require crowd control and positioning, but I feel that is a good thing. It keeps combat from feeling static and hack and slash. At least IMHO

[Fistandamus]

I could finish the inquisitor story line thx to fore slow...

 

force slow, run, discharge, shock, foce slow, discharge, shock...

 

Electrocute when its up and 2 secs of melee attacks.

 

Deception assassin sucks... and im playing PvP with my deception spec and i spent more time dead than alive... really a weak class... if i know it i would lvl and operative...

 

My bigest PvP crit 2,5k

 

The high crit i recibe 5,5k

 

Bioware ur doing something wrong with the assassin...

[Midnight_Malice]

 

My bigest PvP crit 2,5k

 

The high crit i recibe 5,5k

 

Bioware ur doing something wrong with the assassin...

 

I don't think Bioware is to blame..... With average gear, no PvP gear at all I was critting for 3.5k with shock, discharge (Surging) and Maul against Champion geared opponents. Now with a couple champion pieces I'm around 4k+.

 

Maybe Assassin is a tad bit underpowered as far as bursting down on average, but if 2.5k is your highest, it is you, not bioware.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Midnight_Malice

[wardrich]

I hit Voss at 43/44, and started struggling against silver mobs my own level. My gear/mods are as up to date as my level allows and so is Trelik's. I got to 45 through quests but some of the class quests where I'm having to take on two gold's back to back are ridiculously difficult.

 

Two examples of this are the Area quest chain where the final quest requires you have to kill two silver BH's I can't solo at 46. Also have the Avatar of ...... quest and I also having difficultly completing, the dps output of deception is not keeping up.

 

I have a level 50 BH, had a few challenges but none where my spec was not competitive enough for me to complete.

 

I'm firmly in the 'please review assassindps spec's' camp.

[Pestilience]

I've been leveling as darkness since around level 16. Simply put, Khem Val sucks as a tank. He was holding aggro, but was so damned squishy. So I placed him in DPS mode, respeced to darkness, and all of a sudden life got easier.

 

 

Killed Zash at 28

 

 

The only issue is now on taris I'm only level 30 and my next class quest is 34. So I gotta wait to finish the bonus series and do some pvp to level up so I can finish taris.

[souloikj]

I basically had the the same issue, I found that killing mobs with same level become more and more difficult. I have to go do some warzones to keep myself 3 levels ahead of the zone level.

 

Not to mention my class quest, I ended up either level higher and come back for it or just call my bounty hunter friend to help me on it.

 

I think as melee class who only got light armor, low survive abilities and few cc is really not the way to go.

[Bahamude]

I've been messing around with my 50 Dec Assassin some more and I'm beginning to think the key is not to use your 4 interrupts in a normal hit rotation but to hold the interrupts for when you need to stop your opponent from casting or doing a special attack.

 

I think the tricky part is realizing that only one of the interrupts ignores cooldown whereas the other 3 are affected by the standard cooldown timers.

 

I know I used to use 2 of my cooldown-affected-interrupts in my hit rotation which probably explained some of the issues I was having early on trying to fight golds and multiple silvers with survivability instead of holding on to them to limit the damage of the mobs. Generally trash mobs aren't the problem- just the bosses and when you're getting hit by multiple silvers or a silver and a gold.

 

I've begun to suspect that the Dec Assassin is more about limiting your opponents' ability to do damage than trying to dish out a ton of damage yourself. The spec isn't built to be high dps. It's a steady stream of damage going out that relies heavily on limiting the amount of damage coming in.

 

Can anyone who's successful with the Deception Assassin taking out golds the SAME level as you confirm that this is how you're playing your Deception Assassin? I'll try it some more the next time I'm in game.

 

I could do things on my Sith juggernaut like wipe out a group of 6 trash mobs in under 8 seconds, seek out and kill gold mobs for fun, or solo 2 gold mobs- things I could never do on my Dec Assassin. 2 very different styles of play with very different damage outputs and defense strategies.

 

Any other 50s out there have thoughts on this?

[Aeyden]

I don't get this. I defeated Zash for example at lvl 29.. I do quest 2-3 lvls above mine. Ok, it can be hard.. But I never had any problems. I think its just a matter when to use your skills.

 

IMO the sin is good as it is.

[ArsMoritoria]

Can anyone who's successful with the Deception Assassin taking out golds the SAME level as you confirm that this is how you're playing your Deception Assassin? I'll try it some more the next time I'm in game.

 

Low Slash is an extremely situational ability. Assuming I am fighting something that can be be incapacitated, I use it for one of two reasons:

 

1) Incapacitate my target to gain position for Maul, while Exploit Weakness is up with at least 2-3 seconds left on the buff.

 

2) Interrupt the cast of an ability that requires 2+ seconds to cast.

 

Additionally, if I can, I will let the incapacitate effect run as long as I can before using Maul, to allow myself to regain an extra tick or two of focus. On top of that, where possible, I like to use it as an interrupt while I have 5-6 seconds on the Exploit Weakness buff, burn time for extra focus, and then Maul. That's the optimal situation, however, and can require some setup to execute correctly.

 

Remember when using this ability that you always want to let it sit on the victim for as long as possible, most particularly when you have to use it as an interrupt. Unlike Jolt, our other interrupts do not prevent that ability from being cast again for a period of time, so burn whatever time you can to give you less time without interrupt coverage.

 

As far as Overload is concerned, I almost never use it. I Mind Trap in every possible situation, so the AoE tends to only get me killed when facing multiple targets. As well, between the delay and it being on the GCD mean the cast I wish to interrupt may get off before my knockback, wasting the effort entirely.

 

These are pretty much my keys to dealing with Elite and strong mobs in combat. While it works faily well, victory is never really assured with some of the tougher elites and I completely avoid solo fights with champions of my level (50 in all 126 gear). Trying to take on a champion is almost always a losing proposition, unless they are ranged and I have lots of obstacles for disrupting LoS.

 

As a last note, remember to turn off any companion attacks that apply DoT effects if you intend to use Low Slash at all. You companions will automatically stop attacking a victim of Low Slash, but their DoTs will still break the incap effect.

 

That's my 2p, hope it helps.

[malacanth]

As a dude who started miraculously tearing apart golds the second my professional archaeologist joined the party, as opposed to taking them through harsh, brutal battles with final golds in which Channel the Force figured prominently during takedown, I feel some of your pain. Deception Sins are necessarily going to have an awful time because Khem Val isn't as good at tanking as a Darkness Sin and he tends to get fried by the biggest gold fights. But if someone isn't tanking for you, you get torn apart because Maul can't be used on a guy who's constantly up in your face.

 

Go ahead and pour the damage on- Thrash should feature prominently for most Deception specs, and hopefully you're using Dark Charge with Energize, Induction, and Recklessness to really beef up your opening volley of Shocks. There's a lot of other options, but this is what I used. Don't get married to your damage chaining, though- if the boss looks like they're about to break out a nasty, long-channeling spell, Jolt. Then Low Slash when they try again, then Jolt, then Electrocute, Jolt, Low, etc. Hopefully you've done enough damage during this cycle to really wreck your opponent while keeping your health relatively high. When you get the boss down to a level where you can add Assassinate to the rotation, things will be outright wonderful for you. I haven't needed to turn on Channel the Force since I got Talos. If you find the fight going to hell? Well, you'd better have been smart enough to take down any adds in the area, at which point you can just use Force Cloak, run away, and fight the boss alone when you feel like getting back into it, with a rezzed companion.

 

Study how the boss attacks even as you're attacking them, try to control your companions appropriately, and use Talos to make gold fights trivial. There are a ton of L50 Sins out there, and most got there without major grief. Good luck!

 

I've been messing around with my 50 Dec Assassin some more and I'm beginning to think the key is not to use your 4 interrupts in a normal hit rotation but to hold the interrupts for when you need to stop your opponent from casting or doing a special attack.

 

I think the tricky part is realizing that only one of the interrupts ignores cooldown whereas the other 3 are affected by the standard cooldown timers.

 

I know I used to use 2 of my cooldown-affected-interrupts in my hit rotation which probably explained some of the issues I was having early on trying to fight golds and multiple silvers with survivability instead of holding on to them to limit the damage of the mobs. Generally trash mobs aren't the problem- just the bosses and when you're getting hit by multiple silvers or a silver and a gold.

 

I've begun to suspect that the Dec Assassin is more about limiting your opponents' ability to do damage than trying to dish out a ton of damage yourself. The spec isn't built to be high dps. It's a steady stream of damage going out that relies heavily on limiting the amount of damage coming in.

 

Can anyone who's successful with the Deception Assassin taking out golds the SAME level as you confirm that this is how you're playing your Deception Assassin? I'll try it some more the next time I'm in game.

 

I could do things on my Sith juggernaut like wipe out a group of 6 trash mobs in under 8 seconds, seek out and kill gold mobs for fun, or solo 2 gold mobs- things I could never do on my Dec Assassin. 2 very different styles of play with very different damage outputs and defense strategies.

 

Any other 50s out there have thoughts on this?