Big Bad Suggestion Thread

[ThisGuyThat]

(Just to get this out of the way, I'm 60 valor, full champ (now with BM implants/earpiece) and also have a long history with competitive PvP in MMO and various other genres)

 

Despite all the bugs and balance issues in PvP, I think it's generally agreed that the Marauder is a fun class to play. Rather than focus on these bugs and balance issues (which will be forever-changing and are difficult to properly analyze in a meta game where level 10s are running around and gearing varies wildly), I want to look at how the Marauder can be improved without significantly adjusting balance. And thus this thread: my intention is to propose adjustments to talents and skills which would make the play styles of the trees more varied, make more abilities distinct (changes that can be seen during play rather than +1% increases, which, while important, are boring and pure mathcraft). For example, I want each tree to modify deadly throw in a unique way. This makes each tree feel more distinct and gives each tree tools that that spec specifically needs, allowing for tighter balance adjustments. (It bothers me that many abilities are precisely the same between trees except for damage increases. Sure this causes specs to favor one ability over another, but it's a boring way of changing how each spec plays, like saying "now this is strong, use this".) Where I mention numbers specifically I do so only with the intention of illustrating the idea, not of actually using that exact number.

 

Feel free to respond with ideas you like, ideas you hate, or ideas of your own (which I would gladly edit in if you'd like).

 

Annihilation: My understanding is that this tree is meant to focus on stacking Juyo and maintaining deadly saber stacks and rupture, when appropriate.

• %health returned on bleed crit based on current stacks of Juyo forms (encourages players to stick in a fight even when low on health to get higher health returns, also lowers floor of health returns and increases ceiling, which smart marauders can use to fool opponents/recover tons of health via undying rage)
  
• %damage increase on bleeds based on current stacks of Juyo form. Again, lower floor and increase ceiling, reward the aggression and bleed focus Annihilators should be going for!
  
• %slow on rupture based on current stacks of Juyo form. Don't go halfway on the theme: this should be the dominating idea of this spec, stacking Juyo, always trying to get back into melee range to keep the stacks up, more stacks should give more damage, healing, and slowing: with respect to also maintaining bleeds!
  
• Deadly throw refreshes deadly saber ticks, gives a tool to maintain bleed even when cc denies us melee range (let us use our 2 min CD to break stuns instead of worrying about getting snared just out of melee range and being worthless
  
• Ravage Refreshes rupture on last slash (punish opponents for not interrupting, reward marauders for using this ability smartly rather than wasting it)
  
• Ravage CD lowered by 1/2 seconds for each stack of Juyo Form at time of activation (same reasoning as annihilate CD reduction, marauders that stay in the fight can speed up their rotation)
  
• Increase rupture DoT damage and duration rather than initial damage: rupture should be used for bleed, burst is for Annihilate: make talents indicate that, an annihilation-specced rupture should bleed longer and much harder than a rage-spec)
  
• Bleeds ticks add stacks of fury. Berserk and predation are incredibly strong in the Annihilation tree, adding more sources and fury would allow marauders to use these abilities more reliably, and essentially make them tools rather than infrequent trinket-y buffs
  
• Crippling slash increases bleed damage (think sundering armor except applicable to bleeds only). This would give more utility to crippling slash (currently underused due to rage cost, low damage and mediocre slow duration), and would give annihilation mrauders with a rage excess a good reason to use this ability without the guilt of damage loss (should be balanced to be MUCH weaker than vicious slash with 1 stack of deadly saber/rupture, accumulating to slightly stronger with max stacks of deadly saber AND rupture up, making it stronger than vicious slash in every way given ideal conditions and smart play)
  

 

Carnage: A focus on utility and 1v1 control. Where annihilation relies on attacking to recover health and do more damage and rage relies on heavy AoE burst, Carnage uses tools to deny an opponent his ability to run/control the fight, then uses superior melee damage to burst him down

• Move rage reduction to Carnage tree and apply it to more abilities (odd that we need to spec into annihilation to improve massacre utility, combine it with force scream rage reduction and maybe extend this rage reduction to deadly throw
  
• More effects from Ataru form procs! This is THE carnage specialty, Ataru form proccing. Give us flat +crit chance after a proc, flat global CD reduction, +surge, etc. There are lots of options, but as is massacre spam to hope Ataru procs more is only to set up scream and hope for more damage output, kind of lame
  
• Increase disruption range and make it deny abilities of that type (tech, melee, force, etc.) for 4 seconds. Carnage is about control and smart ability use, holding off on the disruption until we see a heal or channeled ability from an important tree (like grav round) adds skill without
  overbuffing
  
• Deadly throw interrupts: again, more denial of opponent's control of the fight, something marauders currently lack
  
• Reduce obfuscate duration and drastically reduce cooldown. Obfuscate should be an important tool of timing, but it's long duration and CD encourage people to use it at first opportunity and forget about it for the rest of the fight. Allow us to use it to cause the important burst combo to miss (like just before an ambush-snipe), then again 15 seconds later when our opponent tries it again. (Imagine obfuscating a marauder just after a Gore, and then doing it again 15 seconds later. Much stronger than wasting the entire gore but not being able to do it again for a minute)
  
• Give us a channeled ability that works only on snared targets on a long cooldown (and that works in PvP): this could give us enormous burst the other trees don't need nor would they be able to use. The channel and long CD would allow opponents to interrupt or break the root to deny it. More skill/reward for awareness.
  
• Force scream as a slow/snare/stun when Blood Frenzy is active. This is our combo, make it count! (Currently a crit force scream does MORE damage when fully specked into Rage if Gore is not up, due to same 30% crit increase but passive damage bonus from Shi-Cho damage and armor penetration bonuses. Many ways to bring this back to an Ataru-form focus
  
• Each ravage hit interrupts (though the same ability can be immediate recasted). Ravage roots for control, but currently some classes can just unload abilities right back at the marauder, dealing back damage that the marauder can do nothing about. Ability interrupts would further force the quick interrupt, or deny channeled abilities if that interrupt was unavailable (instant cast is fair game)
  
• Make disruption/obfuscate cost no rage (rage is already quirky in carnage, but these abilities should always be available (except when on cd) as this is utility, and carnage sholud be about utility (assuming damage remains as-is)
  
• Give disruption range along with obfuscate, ranged interrupts can only be 'overpowered' if there's a channeled ability an enemy can spam while the marauder cannot get within range and Force Charge is down, which is actually often a problem and should be remedied somehow, this seems adequate
  
• Increase slow from crippling slash, this ability is currently way underused and not just because it is easily forgotten: slows for marauders are fantastic, but the rage cost and loss of damage is simply too high to use regularly
  
• Vicious throw critical chance increase with blood frenzy (it's only usable as a finisher anyways, it would be a great boon to carnage if a massacre-force scream combo could be followed up with a (likely) crit vicious throw, especially because this would be pseudo-burst which the class currently lacks
   
  

 

Rage: All about big bursty damage. Currently the most obvious spec, but also disturbingly linear in use and very predictable. More tools!

• Obliterate denies slows/snares for the duration of its movement increase: important to give rage marauders more mobility, particularly when smash is unreliable against faster fleeing enemies (I can't say whether it's lag or a lying hitbox, but it happens to me quite often). Also gives obliterate more situational utility rather than a pure setup to the inevitable smash
  
• Shockwave smash also increases crit chance by 2.5/5% (or perhaps 3/6%)per tick. A 20% chance to crit won't let rage users smash without charging/obliterating first (the risk of lost damage would be enormous), but would encourage rage users to diversify ability use before smashing (and thus eliminating shockwave charges). A 20% increase can be enough to hit 50% crit based on gear, and thus represents an enormous damage increase...but with the risk of pushing it too far and missing the chance to Smash. Risk management!
  
• Force charge should perhaps grant cc resistance rather than rooting:roots are for carnage (which has base speed increase and can close gaps on stunned enemies quickly), cc is what cripples rage users (who might queue a smash on an immobilized target only to be knocked away and have the smash (shockwave and crit and cooldown) all wasted by what is an incredibly easy and panicky reaction by any class which has a knockback. Punish panic and reward deliberation and game knowledge: a stun will at least force the marauder to blow the 3 min CD, and the victim is still free to run
  
• Vicious and Deadly throw range increase: Rage gives these abilities a bonus Crit increase, bit more functionality would allow rage users to be effective even when gap closers are on CD
  
• Ravage grants shockwave ticks, 3 max. Honestly, I just feel like the channeling->power theme is strong and fun, and this adjustment would give rage users a real benefit to investing in making ravage uninterruptible. Still limited by smash cooldown, just reduces downtime or allows for the saving of obliterate/charge when it is unnecessary
  
• Force choke range increase. This would allow for some diversity where a force choke could be used while Force Charge is on CD, and followed up with the force charge+smash combo and would leave a lot of rage left over. Significant largely because it would give the marauder a way to stall for time while the combo was down while remaining in force charge range (or close), and more importantly would telegraph to the opponent what was coming (allowing them to counter if possible)
  
• Ability:Roll. To stick with the Shii-Cho damage mitigation theme, I propse an ability on a fairly long cooldown (something on the scale of 45 seconds to a minute) which would cause the marauder to roll forward 5-10 meters (essentially a force charge). The differences from force charge would be that it would cost rage (for balance reasons and because it should be used in combat exclusively) and that it would ignore damage, stuns, and CC applied during the roll (think teleports in DotA where incoming projectiles failed when the teleport was well-timed). This would give Rage marauders a crucial distance-closer as well as a tool to ignore obvious knockbacks/stuns which absolutely cripple their combo (which is on a long cooldown)
  

 

I've got more, but this is more than long enough for now. Any other ideas? Not just number buffs/nerfs (unless you feel that there is a number very important to making a change viable), but real changes that would change playstyle and preferably reward skill (MMO skills) and increase tools without significantly changing balance. What type of changes would you like to see happen to each tree? Construct, guys!

 

-TG, That

 

Added more to all trees (just slapped on the end, won't worry about ordering yet). This is essentially a self-necro, but my policy is to do so very rarely, and I kind of wanted to get this back out there when I read threads about generic "we are weak" "no we're awesome" arguments. We need some constructive chnages or else we'll slide endlessly between buffed and nerfed without seeing our core issues addressed, namely a lack of tools in PvP situations and a lack of true diversity between specs (which is only a problem for those who want each tree to require time devotion to understand fully and play with expertly)

Edited January 17, 2012 by ThisGuyThat
Additions and incorrect placement

[AcaciaDragon]

Despite all the bugs and balance issues in PvP, I think it's generally agreed that the Marauder is a fun class to play. Rather than focus on these bugs and balance issues (which will be forever-changing and are difficult to properly analyze in a meta game where level 10s are running around and gearing varies wildly), I want to look at how the Marauder can be improved without significantly adjusting balance. And thus this thread: my intention is to propose adjustments to talents and skills which would make the play styles of the trees more varied, make more abilities distinct (changes that can be seen during play rather than +1% increases, which, while important, are boring and pure mathcraft). For example, I want each tree to modify deadly throw in a unique way. This makes each tree feel more distinct and gives each tree tools that that spec specifically needs, allowing for tighter balance adjustments. (It bothers me that many abilities are precisely the same between trees except for damage increases. Sure this causes specs to favor one ability over another, but it's a boring way of changing how each spec plays, like saying "now this is strong, use this".) Where I mention numbers specifically I do so only with the intention of illustrating the idea, not of actually using that exact number.

 

Feel free to respond with ideas you like, ideas you hate, or ideas of your own (which I would gladly edit in if you'd like).

 

Annihilation: My understanding is that this tree is meant to focus on stacking Juyo and maintaining deadly saber stacks and rupture, when appropriate.

• %health returned on bleed crit based on current stacks of Juyo forms (encourages players to stick in a fight even when low on health to get higher health returns, also lowers floor of health returns and increases ceiling, which smart marauders can use to fool opponents/recover tons of health via undying rage)
  
• %damage increase on bleeds based on current stacks of Juyo form. Again, lower floor and increase ceiling, reward the aggression and bleed focus Annihilators should be going for!
  
• %slow on rupture based on current stacks of Juyo form. Don't go halfway on the theme: this should be the dominating idea of this spec, stacking Juyo, always trying to get back into melee range to keep the stacks up, more stacks should give more damage, healing, and slowing: with respect to also maintaining bleeds!
  
• Deadly throw refreshes deadly saber ticks, gives a tool to maintain bleed even when cc denies us melted range (let us use our 3 min CD to break stuns instead of worrying about getting snared just out of melee range and being worthless
  
• Ravage Refreshes rupture on last slash (punish opponents for not interrupting, reward marauders for using this ability smartly rather than wasting it)
  
• Ravage CD lowered by 1/2 seconds for each stack of Juyo Form at time of activation (same reasoning as annihilate CD reduction, marauders that stay in the fight can speed up their rotation)
  
• Increase rupture DoT damage and duration rather than initial damage: rupture should be used for bleed, burst is for Annihilate: make talents indicate that, an annihilation-specced rupture should bleed longer and much harder than a rage-spec)
  

 

Carnage: A focus on utility and 1v1 control. Where annihilation relies on attacking to recover health and do more damage and rage relies on heavy AoE burst, Carnage uses tools to deny an opponent his ability to run/control the fight, then uses superior melee damage to burst him down

• Move rage reduction to Carnage tree and apply it to more abilities (odd that we need to spec into annihilation to improve massacre utility, combine it with force scream rage reduction and maybe extend this rage reduction to deadly throw
  
• More effects from Ataru form procs! This is THE carnage specialty, Ataru form proccing. Give us flat +crit chance after a proc, flat global CD reduction, +surge, etc. There are lots of options, but as is massacre spam to hope Ataru procs more is only to set up scream and hope for more damage output, kind of lame
  
• Increase disruption range and make it deny abilities of that type (tech, melee, force, etc.) for 4 seconds. Carnage is about control and smart ability use, holding off on the disruption until we see a heal or channeled ability from an important tree (like grav round) adds skill without
  overbuffing
  
• deadly throw interrupts: again, more denial of opponent's control of the fight, something marauders currently lack
  
• Reduce obfuscate duration and drastically reduce cooldown. Obfuscate should be an important tool of timing, but it's long duration and CD encourage people to use it at first opportunity and forget about it for the rest of the fight. Allow us to use it to cause the important burst combo to miss (like just before an ambush-snipe), then again 15 seconds later when our opponent tries it again. (Imagine obfuscating a marauder just after a Gore, and then doing it again 15 seconds later. Much stronger than wasting the entire gore but not being able to do it again for a minute)
  
• Give us a channeled ability that works only on snared targets on a long cooldown (and that works in PvP): this could give us enormous burst the other trees don't need nor would they be able to use. The channel and long CD would allow opponents to interrupt or break the root to deny it. More skill/reward for awareness.
  
• Force scream as a slow/snare/stun when Blood Frenzy is active. This is our combo, make it count! (Currently a crit force scream does MORE damage when fully specked into Rage if Gore is not up, due to same 30% crit increase but passive damage bonus from Shi-Cho damage and armor penetration bonuses. Many ways to bring this back to an Ataru-form focus
  
• Each ravage hit interrupts (though the same ability can be immediate recasted). Ravage roots for control, but currently some classes can just unload abilities right back at the marauder, dealing back damage that the marauder can do nothing about. Ability interrupts would further force the quick interrupt, or deny channeled abilities if that interrupt was unavailable (instant cast is fair game)
  

 

Rage: All about big bursty damage. Currently the most obvious spec, but also disturbingly linear in use and very predictable. More tools!

• Obliterate denies slows/snares for the duration of its movement increase: important to give rage marauders more mobility, particularly when smash is unreliable against faster fleeing enemies (I can't say whether it's lag or a lying hitbox, but it happens to me quite often). Also gives obliterate more situational utility rather than a pure setup to the inevitable smash
  
• Shockwave smash also increases crit chance by 2.5/5% (or perhaps 3/6%)per tick. A 20% chance to crit won't let rage users smash without charging/obliterating first (the risk of lost damage would be enormous), but would encourage rage users to diversify ability use before smashing (and thus eliminating shockwave charges). A 20% increase can be enough to hit 50% crit based on gear, and thus represents an enormous damage increase...but with the risk of pushing it too far and missing the chance to Smash. Risk management!
  
• Force charge should perhaps grant cc resistance rather than rooting:roots are for carnage (which has base speed increase and can close gaps on stunned enemies quickly), cc is what cripples rage users (who might queue a smash on an immobilized target only to be knocked away and have the smash (shockwave and crit and cooldown) all wasted by what is an incredibly easy and panicky reaction by any class which has a knockback. Punish panic and reward deliberation and game knowledge: a stun will at least force the marauder to blow the 3 min CD, and the victim is still free to run
  
• Vicious and Deadly throw range increase: Rage gives these abilities a bonus Crit increase, bit more functionality would allow rage users to be effective even when gap closers are on CD
  
• Ravage grants shockwave ticks, 3 max. Honestly, I just feel like The channeled theme is strong and gives rage users a real benefit to investing in making ravage uninterruptible. Still limited by smash cooldown, just reduces downtime or allows for the saving of obliterate/charge when it is unnecessary.
  

 

I've got more, but this is more than long enough for now. Any other ideas? Not just number buffs/nerfs (unless you feel that there is a number very important to making a change viable), but real changes that would change playstyle and preferable reward skill (MMO skills) and increase tools without significantly changing balance. What type of changes would you like to see happen to each tree? Construct, guys!

 

-TG, That

 

I like what you said about some of the Carnage ideas. Obfuscate, its only 6 seconds if i remember correctly, that means at most it should make 3 moves miss. If we reduce the duration, your only causing 1 move to miss and that requires us to foresee into the future what our opponent might do(except bounty hunters, Tracer missile, Tracer missile, Tracer missile), only really useful for casting classes at that point.

 

Ravage is a move thats kinda out there and not sure what to do with, but its kinda understand it has pretty weak rewards for what we risk in using it. What about this idea:

 

I remember playing the Elf warrior class(i honestly don't remember the actual name of it) in Warhammer. The idea behind it, you use one move, it puts you into stage 2, and grants different moves, then use another and it grants stage 3 moves, like finishers, after certain criteria are met your moves do more damage, you are building up to that, what if ravage was like this. you have to use it 3 separate times to get the full effect. using any other moves breaks the chain, and certain other moves could activate stage 2. This would make a few talents pointless, but another element could be added, different moves could activate stage 2 based on our forms. Each one could have a different effect, Rage could actually build shock wave buffs, Carnage can boost Gores duration if its up by a bit, or apply it at the end, And annihilation could reapply Dots, especially when used in conjunction with Deadly Saber. Just writing down ideas out loud, have yet to see this one in a forum and your post inspired me to think of it.

[Kibaken]

My favorite:

 

Disruption locks you out of the 'school' of ability, not just the ability being interrupted.

 

No more interrupting Healing Trance only to have them start casting Benevolence because Choke and Intimidating Roar are on CD.

 

 

And, of course, more hoods.

[mastersloup]

I like this thread, hope it get some devs attention

[ThisGuyThat]

I like this thread, hope it get some devs attention

 

Thanks! I'll be adding more ideas as others introduce them or as ones I have are fleshed out

[Wingzeron]

Wow! very good thread! Hopefully it will get the attention it deserves!

[ThisGuyThat]

Self-necro due to additions and frustrations with generic buff-nerf arguments (see eternal push-pull of humanity for details on when this will end, namely never)

[Draexnael]

A lot of changes, most of them are pretty spot on - What I'd like to see.

 

Obliterate - Changed to a Warrior Core ability (Talents change this to 10/20 Yard increase)

Savage Kick - Deals damage and knocks the opponent down for 3 seconds (stunning it)

Force Charge - Granted immunity from CC for 3-4 seconds after using this ability

[ThisGuyThat]

A lot of changes, most of them are pretty spot on - What I'd like to see.

 

Obliterate - Changed to a Warrior Core ability (Talents change this to 10/20 Yard increase)

Savage Kick - Deals damage and knocks the opponent down for 3 seconds (stunning it)

Force Charge - Granted immunity from CC for 3-4 seconds after using this ability

 

I like these, although I'd prefer more things to vary within talent trees than for marauders as a whole. For example, if savage kick was usable in pvp as - is perhaps carnage could get the stun, while rage gets the immunity after force charge. I feel like the generic sith warrior needs to be moved away from, as juggernauts have so much we do not in terms of utility and defense (not to mention heavy armor), and generic marauder abilities affect balance extremely wildly and must be regulated with more all-around marauder buffs/nerfs which can complicate existing talent tree balance.