Myrden Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You do understand the concept of a hypothetical question, right? Look, all I'm saying is that people do what they do. It's completely unreasonable to say that a guy who has killed hundreds of times might not kill again. Of course he will. That's who he is. There's no reason to expect him not to do something that he does constantly. So killing him off is the right thing to do? Doesn't sound very Jedi-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I can definitely see the point you're coming from. Unfortunately, if you follow the lore, it ties our hands. Good and Evil are certainly somewhat relative. But not completely. There are absolute moral values. But even within the Star Wars universe (which mirrors our own society from a moral standpoint), the will of the darkside is patently Evil, and the will of the lightside is patently good. Well you'd have a hard time making an argument that would convince me of any universal truth to there being a moral good and moral bad. At least in our universe... I think that's where Star Wars is different, and coincidentally where your argument has solid merits--the Force could be considered the universal law and measure of what is good and what is evil. The problem, though, lies in the interpretation of the Force's will. This is why there are different beliefs concerning the will of the Force (Living Force, etc.). If even the Jedi and Sith can't agree on the will of the Force, how could anyone know what is a morally good or bad action in the eyes of the Force? That's where the ideals of the Republic and the Empire step in--to impose a standard to which the society can measure its actions--which we then know are no real litmus test for the true will of the Force. Make sense? Or am I just rambling... lol Edited January 13, 2012 by Dezzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaManoNera Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My SMUGGLER got dark side points for SMUGGLING spice. Before you say, "but smuggling is bad!"...I ask, who is it bad for? Smuggling isn't bad for a smuggler. It's their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) You do understand the concept of a hypothetical question, right? Look, all I'm saying is that people do what they do. It's completely unreasonable to say that a guy who has killed hundreds of times might not kill again. Of course he will. That's who he is. There's no reason to expect him not to do something that he does constantly. Your argument falls apart when you realize that some people who have murdered others IRL, have repented (through religion or not) and have never killed or harmed another individual again. People are creatures of habit, yet habits can change. Edited January 13, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Hermit Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Personally, I agree with you. Killing a proven murderer is not immoral, IMO. However, it IS immoral by society's standards. If a Cop caught up with a known murderer that had escaped, had him at gunpoint and at his mercy... if he shot him, that Cop would go on trial for murder. That cop wasn't faced with a choice where the only two options were killing him or letting him go. He had the option of catching him. I didn't. So killing him off is the right thing to do? Doesn't sound very Jedi-ish. I'm not a jedi. I'm a trooper. It's literally my job to kill the enemies of the republic. Your argument falls apart when you realize that some people who have murdered others IRL, have repented (through religion or not) and have never killed or harmed another individual again. People are creatures of habit, yet habits can change. The vast majority of people in jail are repeat offenders. Name me one serial killer who has been "reformed" that wasn't serving a life sentence or on death row. Edited January 13, 2012 by Game_Hermit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlouismartin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It's only really a problem if you expect your light side jedi to be 100% light side points. Rather than willing to 'do what is necessary' for the greater good. [Yes I do find it slightly frustrating when people just click the light side option because they are a jedi rather than reading it and deciding what their character would do. ] Utilitarianism isn't the Jedi way though--- Utilitarianism states that maximizing happiness for the greater majority is moral. Human nature is too dynamic to predict. You could -- with effort -- moralize some pretty horrible stuff against a minority of people for what appears to be the greater good. Slippery slope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) That cop wasn't faced with a choice where the only two options were killing him or letting him go. He had the option of catching him. I didn't.Someone has said there was, though. Actually, there was a choice in there to capture him. Utilitarianism isn't the Jedi way though--- Utilitarianism states that maximizing happiness for the greater majority is moral. Human nature is too dynamic to predict. You could -- with effort -- moralize some pretty horrible stuff against a minority of people for what appears to be the greater good. Slippery slope.... Off-topic: I hate Utilitarianism and I hated studying it! Edited January 13, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrden Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I'm not a jedi. I'm a trooper. It's literally my job to kill the enemies of the republic. Of course it is, but the Jedi are the guys who are quite keen on the Light side, so if you were to think of it as "what would Yoda do?" then you'll probably be heading for the light route more. Just because it's your job, it doesn't make it "good." Edited January 13, 2012 by Myrden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookami_Nikurasu Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My SMUGGLER got dark side points for SMUGGLING spice. Before you say, "but smuggling is bad!"...I ask, who is it bad for? Smuggling isn't bad for a smuggler. It's their job. Well smuggling is illegal in SW, if you watch the cinematic "Return" you also see a smuggler being arrested for smuggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Hermit Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Someone has said there was, though. And I said that while there might be on a different conversation path, it wasn't given to me. Of course it is, but the Jedi are the guys who are quite keen on the Light side, so if you were to think of it as "what would Yoda do?" then you'll probably be heading for the light route more. Yoda wouldn't do anything. Across all 6 movies there's about 30 seconds of him actually doing something himself. Just because it's your job, it doesn't make it "good." I wasn't saying it does. I just mean that telling me I don't sound jedi-ish is pointless because I'm not supposed to. Edited January 13, 2012 by Game_Hermit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlouismartin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My SMUGGLER got dark side points for SMUGGLING spice. Before you say, "but smuggling is bad!"...I ask, who is it bad for? Smuggling isn't bad for a smuggler. It's their job. That's what I don't like about the game. The force philosophy should only apply to force users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlouismartin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And I said that while there might be on a different conversation path, it wasn't given to me. Yoda wouldn't do anything. Across all 6 movies there's about 30 seconds of him actually doing something himself. Illegal and amoral don't always jive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well you'd have a hard time making an argument that would convince me of an universal truth to there being a moral good and moral bad. At least in our universe... I'm not saying there is one universal, absolute morality. However, I am saying there are aspects of our defined morality that are absolute. For example, Slavery (and be careful not to confuse slavery with indentured servitude... it's very different). Another one would be forced, child genital mutilation (practiced by certain religions). I think that's where Star Wars is different, and coincidentally where your argument has solid merits--the Force could be considered the universal law and measure of what is good and what is evil. The problem, though, lies in the interpretation of the Force's will. This is why there are different beliefs concerning the will of the Force (Living Force, etc.). If even the Jedi and Sith can't agree on the will of the Force, how could anyone know what is a morally good or bad action in the eyes of the Force? That's where the ideals of the Republic and the Empire step in--to impose a standard to which the society can measure its actions--which we then know are no real litmus test for the true will of the Force. Make sense? Or am I just rambling... lol You make sense, but I don't think interpretation is really an issue here. Lucas has defined the darkside and lightside as immoral and moral (respectively) according to our society's definition of morality. I think a point of contention is you're looking at the Force as a single thing that two organizations interpret differently. When in fact, there are two distinct Wills of the Force, not just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenjohnp Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My SMUGGLER got dark side points for SMUGGLING spice. Before you say, "but smuggling is bad!"...I ask, who is it bad for? Smuggling isn't bad for a smuggler. It's their job. Well you're exporting/importing illegal drugs. You're honestly telling me that if I were to buy/sell cocaine that because I was a "Drug Dealer" class, I would not be considered a Bad person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrden Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yoda wouldn't do anything. Across all 6 movies there's about 30 seconds of him actually doing something himself. I wasn't saying it does. I just mean that telling me I don't sound jedi-ish is pointless because I'm not supposed to. You're having a hard time grasping this, aren't you? I said "what would Yoda do?" as a kind of weak reference to that Christian thing that the God-botherers say. I had no idea you would be so pedantic about it, but here we are. Of course you're not a Jedi, but the Jedi are the blokes who are an example of how to reach the Light side of the Force. If one were to wish to reach the Light side, then the Jedi would be a good fellow to follow. No one's forcing you to though, just don't expect to be rewarded with Light points if you don't act like a Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 That cop wasn't faced with a choice where the only two options were killing him or letting him go. He had the option of catching him. I didn't. Ok, let's assume that the Cop didn't have a choice either... he could only choose to kill him or let him go. According to society, killing him would still be the immoral choice. Keep in mind that there is a difference between morality and ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Hermit Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well you're exporting/importing illegal drugs. You're honestly telling me that if I were to buy/sell cocaine that because I was a "Drug Dealer" class, I would not be considered a Bad person? It's completely victim-less. People can do what they want with their own body. If we're going to start banning things because they're bad for you we might as well ban McDonalds. IMO Governments have a duty to protect people from others. Not to meddle in a grown man's ability to make his own lifestyle choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) It's completely victim-less. Using / purchasing drugs is actually not victimless. Just because the immediate repercussions don't effect others doesn't mean there are no long-term effects on the community or society (on any scale). Edited January 13, 2012 by Bdatik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) It's completely victim-less. People can do what they want with their own body. If we're going to start banning things because they're bad for you we might as well ban McDonalds. IMO Governments have a duty to protect people from others. Not to meddle in a grown man's ability to make his own lifestyle choices. Ahh, the real issue comes out. See, the issue here is that you don't agree with society's accepted moral standards. That's fine... but someone's personal morals don't matter when being compared to their effect on society and society's standards. (Light and Dark side points are essentially a measurement of your societial morality) Edited January 13, 2012 by Kashaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrden Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Using / purchasing drugs is actually not victimless. Just because the immediate repercussions don't effect others doesn't mean there are no long-term effects on society (on any scale). I agree, though the same could be said of prohibition in the first place. lol, I knew we were going here eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlouismartin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Drug use and distribution by themselves aren't amoral. I think that theft, robbery, and murder are---- these typically ensue around hard illegal drugs. This is why I choose not to do them... That and the obvious detriment to health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliotic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 That's what I don't like about the game. The force philosophy should only apply to force users. Well, what do you mean by 'apply'? Given that there is no penalty for being light side or dark side in the game (beyond the colour of your weapon) then it doesn't really apply to force users either. Which is fine, because I want my 'dark jedi' to be able to go 'searching for power' so that he can fight evil more effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdatik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I agree, though the same could be said of prohibition in the first place. lol, I knew we were going here eventually. Lesser of two evils needs to be chosen on a case-by-case basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Drug use and distribution by themselves aren't amoral. I think that theft, robbery, and murder are---- these typically ensue around hard illegal drugs. This is why I choose not to do them... That and the obvious detriment to health. I don't mean to be a grammar nazi, but "amoral" and "immoral" are two VERY different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrden Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Lesser of two evils needs to be chosen on a case-by-case basis. A brilliant debate which I would love to partake in, but I don't think this is the place for it. Shame too. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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