Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well that's the problem though. I've mentioned time and again that playstyles vary, and hardcore raiding is also a playstyle that should not be alienated. So what if only a few guilds aim for server/world first? That doesn't mean other guilds don't play for the purpose of min/maxing. I can almost guarantee there's at least one or two guilds per server -- probably per faction -- whose sole purpose is to be server first, and even more with a min/max mentality. That's a lot of guilds. Elitism, sure. You'll get that with any game. We already have it in this one without parsers. Just drop into PVP and look at all the elitists there who bash on lowbies just because they're level 50 and got lucky with Champion bags. The benefits of parsing outweigh its negatives. It is not a wise business model to invest a significant portion of your development budget on a portion of users that are less than even 1% of the userbase. If Bioware had followed your line of thinking - they would not have done any voice acting or quest-based leveling process. Everyone would have just rolled a level 50 character and began gearing up for their pursuit of the world first - which ultimately means nothing. Last week, Bioware stated that most of the player base hasn't even crossed over level 30 yet. Seems like they are really interested in server/world firsts, eh? Over a million people began during EGA and most of them are still not past level 30. Let that sink in a bit. That is how important raiding is to the playerbase. They are MONTHS away from even thinking about it. We have a guild of 90 some players - it's been mentioned like twice since EGA in guild chat. We have a sign up thread on our forums. At this point - we have like 6 level 50s so far. We ain't even thinking about raiding yet and we all started on day 2/3 of EGA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The problem in this case isn't the utility, it's in fact the enrage timer. The enrage timer is an answer for the damage meter. Listen, you don't get to perfect your combat rotation without a consequence coming along. If you figure out how to do 30% more DPS, then the content will be that much easier. The developers will have to make it more challenging or you'll have people crying that Wrath, er... TOR is too easy. More challenge will come from somewhere - enrage timers were the tool used in the past by "another game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theothersteve Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Wouldn't this be better from a computer performance standpoint anyway? I know that running Recount in a 25-man tended to bog down my processor. *edit* I'd rather have a challenge that all players can understand than the 500 of us who actually do quality theorycraft. Just sayin. Edited January 17, 2012 by theothersteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hi Raeln. Meet my friend Slippery Slope. He's a logical fallacy. You can learn more about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope I see you didn't attempt to deny the logic presented. Just calling it a logical fallacy doesn't make it one - especially when it has already happened in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Your argument amounts to saying that the only way that developers can challenge players is to withhold information from them. I look forward to playing your hard-mode "no graphics or sound" MMO. That sounds like a ton of fun. You should read the context once again. Initial raids are done without "real" number requirements, but as soon as these tools are available they will be needed to get into use while designing new content to keep those who rely on meters and other things happy, no challenge = not happy. This will also require the majority that wants to clear these new instances to use these tools, since the majority of guilds got a mixed player base. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorrigTS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Enrage timers are far from the only way to increase the difficulty of the fight. Again, these metrics are not only to view DPS. It's terrifying to think players with access to more detailed information will allow developers to implement more complex encounters. I'd hate for things to actually be a challenge and interesting :/ Edited January 17, 2012 by KorrigTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behrit Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Why would you need to lie, unless you were slacking, being a leech. .......or, just playing a game for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And if the "damage meters" provided your personal output only, you would still be able to try to push for that extra 10-20 DPS in YOUR performance. Why should improving YOUR PERSONAL performance require you, or anyone else, to see numbers for anyone else in the group? Because knowing just your information without having anyone to compare it to is almost completely useless without personally asking everyone what their damage was. Read my previous post about balancing. A personal parse for regular raiding is fine, but for progression raiding, you really need to be able to gauge yourself against others in real time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Your argument amounts to saying that the only way that developers can challenge players is to withhold information from them. I look forward to playing your hard-mode "no graphics or sound" MMO. That sounds like a ton of fun. It's common sense man. The developers have to decide on what some percentage of character output will be average, just like they have to decide on what the average gear level will be on characters attempting boss #1 of the raid zone. They balance for those numbers, except - if the average character output turns out to be made higher by number crunching from damage meters, the content will end up being too easy. The developers will then need to decide whether or not to live with it being decried as too easy or make it more challenging, to be like they intended originally. If they make it more challenging, then very likely - everyone will have to use damage meters to pick up the slack and be able to complete the new content. They won't be optional at that point and you'll either see them go into massive use or raiding die. If raiding dies, then the raids will be nerfed - like another game that we like to refer to so often tends to do. Either method has negative side effects, either for the raiding population or the community in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) It is not a wise business model to invest a significant portion of your development budget on a portion of users that are less than even 1% of the userbase. Significant portion of development budget? The original Damage Meters was a player-made addon, which was maintained through every patch by a teenager with basic scripting knowledge. BioWare has spent millions developing the game and they can't do what a single teenager did? Last week, Bioware stated that most of the player base hasn't even crossed over level 30 yet. Seems like they are really interested in server/world firsts, eh? Over a million people began during EGA and most of them are still not past level 30. Let that sink in a bit. That is how important raiding is to the playerbase. You do realize that they're also counting trial (30 free days) subscriptions and alts, right? Same with WoW. The majority of its playerbase isn't past Lv30 either. Edited January 17, 2012 by CapitaFK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The enrage timer is an answer for the damage meter. Listen, you don't get to perfect your combat rotation without a consequence coming along. If you figure out how to do 30% more DPS, then the content will be that much easier. The developers will have to make it more challenging or you'll have people crying that Wrath, er... TOR is too easy. More challenge will come from somewhere - enrage timers were the tool used in the past by "another game". No, enrage timer is simply in place to make the content appear harder than it really is. Example: Boss is @ 20% and everyone is still max health moving along just fine.. Suddenly.. ENRAGE TIMER, and you die. Problem? Seeing how the mechanics in the current content are very... easy.. We can assume the problem is simply not enough DPS. Without meters for GM's to look over it becomes a game of cat and mouse on who the person or persons within the group is holding the guild back. People unable to clear content within a guild makes guildy's unhappy. Unhappy guildy's means strife within the community OH jeez slippery slope! As far as the dev's makign content harder because of meters.. Good. That's what Hard modes are for, and Normal modes are still available and TUNED for those who do not min max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Enrage timers are far from the only way to increase the difficulty of the fight. Again, these metrics are not only to view DPS. It's terrifying to think players with access to more detailed information will allow developers to implement more complex encounters. I'd hate for things to actually be a challenge :/ Oh that is where the boss mods come in, making the screen flash and bells ring out lout. Why force developers to implement much more complex encounters based on the existence of addons? The worst thing that then can happen is that they nerf the same content after some weeks/months so that all the casual players can get it done. But as often seen it gets nerfed laughable much. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 As a side note, it's kind of odd the way people are inverting the cause and effect with enrage timers and DPS charts. Enrage timers exist so that groups actually do have to pay attention to their damage, rather than stacking a fight with healers. They existed before games with damage meters, too, btw. DPS meters don't cause enrage timers; enrage timers cause DPS meters. If fights don't have some kind of hard time limit, there's no reason to care at all about anything other than outlasting the boss until your tank can whittle him down over the course of three hours. Enrage timers are just gub'mint make-work program for DPS classes. If anyone should be protesting the inclusion of enrage timers, or damage meters, for that matter, it should be all those poor healers and tanks who will be out of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oh that is where the boss mods come in, making the screen flash and bells ring out lout. Why force developers to implement much more complex encounters based on the existence of addons? Oh hi again, still waiting on those links of those amazing guilds who don't use anything to asses player ability. Also, no one is debating Boss mods that tell you how to move and what to do. Apples and Oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil-bob Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 That's how I interpret the quote, anyway. I don't interpret that quote to be exclusive to yourself. It seems much more general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Enrage timers are far from the only way to increase the difficulty of the fight. Again, these metrics are not only to view DPS. It's terrifying to think players with access to more detailed information will allow developers to implement more complex encounters. I'd hate for things to actually be a challenge and interesting :/ Remove your training wheel addons if you want a challenge? Still haven't figured out why people can't run fast enough to curse.com to get all their addons, yet decry that other game for then being too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorrigTS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Remove your training wheel addons if you want a challenge? Still haven't figured out why people can't run fast enough to curse.com to get all their addons, yet decry that other game for then being too easy. I'm not arguing for addons. I'm arguing for combat log. Have you been paying attention to the same argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Significant portion of development budget? The original Damage Meters was a player-made addon, which was maintained through every patch by a teenager with basic scripting knowledge. BioWare has spent millions developing the game and they can't do what a single teenager did? Development dollars had to be spent to make the API that the "teenager with basic scripting knowledge" used. That addon API just didn't design and debug itself. You do realize that they're also counting trial (30 free days) subscriptions and alts, right? Same with WoW. The majority of its playerbase isn't past Lv30 either. There is no difference at this point. If you bought the game you are counted - no one has been billed for a subscription yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No, enrage timer is simply in place to make the content appear harder than it really is. Example: Boss is @ 20% and everyone is still max health moving along just fine.. Suddenly.. ENRAGE TIMER, and you die. Problem? Seeing how the mechanics in the current content are very... easy.. We can assume the problem is simply not enough DPS. Without meters for GM's to look over it becomes a game of cat and mouse on who the person or persons within the group is holding the guild back. People unable to clear content within a guild makes guildy's unhappy. Unhappy guildy's means strife within the community OH jeez slippery slope! As far as the dev's makign content harder because of meters.. Good. That's what Hard modes are for, and Normal modes are still available and TUNED for those who do not min max. The enrage timer's only function is to provide a minimum DPS requirement. It is used largely in response to force players to output a certain threshold of DPS. Without it - you could bring 2 tanks and 6 healers to every 8 man boss and win. It might take 3 hours to kill the boss, but victory would be assured. Personally, I think that should be a viable strategy if 8 people want to throw away that much time, but that's off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oh that is where the boss mods come in, making the screen flash and bells ring out lout. Why force developers to implement much more complex encounters based on the existence of addons?Because it prevents them from producing encounters that are filled with trivially easy mechanics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) It is not a wise business model to invest a significant portion of your development budget on a portion of users that are less than even 1% of the userbase. Please listen: Combat logs MAKE CONTENT MORE ACCESSIBLE. They allow people to assess and improve their performance on content that they are finding difficult. Not knowing how to get better doesn't make content easier. Edited January 17, 2012 by Herbertllew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oh hi again, still waiting on those links of those amazing guilds who don't use anything to asses player ability. Also, no one is debating Boss mods that tell you how to move and what to do. Apples and Oranges. Other mechanics where mentioned where boss mods came into play in another game. That is how it came in, and it wasn't directed at you either. As for guilds who could do world first kill without addons just take a peak at Ensida and before. Neither did my guild use anything during Vanilla, there wasn't really much available either, we cleared out content anyway so who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm not arguing for addons. I'm arguing for combat log. Have you been paying attention to the same argument? Combat log = parser or damage meters. Same end result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbertllew Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Neither did my guild use anything during Vanilla, there wasn't really much available either, we cleared out content anyway so who cares. If you want Vanilla-WoW quality raid encounters, you'll get them with no combat logs. Edited January 17, 2012 by Herbertllew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonlinar Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Now, all we need is an app on each person's machine to report back individual data and then send it back to everyone but with everyone's data. Work around achieved! Yay!! Edited January 17, 2012 by Jonlinar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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