[Official High Resolution Textures Post] Can we get a clarification on this?

[Mal-Sharran]

Pardon me for not reading the entire 5000+ posts, but has the issue of Beta running better with high-res textures than Live with low-res been addressed satisfactorily? The game now looks worse, and runs worse, than Beta. This is beyond my comprehension. I've read all the dev updates and didn't see anything beyond the generic response from Stephen yesterday.

 

My specs are pretty beastly, and most of the time at 1920x1080 I'm in the 80 to 111 (capped) fps range on [lol]high[/lol] settings. And then I can stare at some craptacular light display in the Nexus Room Cantina in Kaas City and drop to 50fps with maybe two other player characters and their companions in view. I can play BF3 on Ultra in a 64 player map, and be in the thick of battle (20+ out of the 64) all in my field of view without dropping below an unplayable frame rate. And I'm willing to bet one marine on ultra is worth at least three low res characters in TOR.

 

Please help me understand this...

[Mackuss]

http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

 

"We showed the game to our friend Gordon Walton. We had known Gordon for many years, back in the days when he worked for Kesmai, our late great competitor. Gordon had since been with Sony for its Star Wars Galaxies game among other places. He knows games, especially online games.

 

Not only did we show him the game, but because Gordon knew us so well we showed him the development tools we had built around our special process – building the game online, in realtime, with tools for the entire team all in one package.

 

“I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.”

 

We had thought about offering our engine and tools to developers but we had expected that we would have to actually ship a game first, like Epic did with Unreal Tournament before they licensed the original Unreal Engine.

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

 

He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.”

 

Straight from the game engines website.

 

 

I read that too.....dubbayew tee eff.

[mArchangel]

You had me up until there^, then you lost me

 

Let me re-phrase: We don't need new content as number ONE prority. Of course the game content has to grow, but if the development of the fixes takes more ressources than are available to achieve both at the same time then I would want to see them opt for fixes first.

[daemian]

There was someone, earlier today, that claimed forcing AA + enabling mipmap would actually make the textures look no different than if there were high res textures in the game. He kept spamming a crappy looking screen capture saying it looks great.

 

I just wanted to prove that while AA and mipmap will improve the game's look, it will improve the looks even more with high res textures.

 

he was saying- AA +mipmap = high res textures

 

I'm saying AA+mipmap + high res textures > all

 

 

 

It was a fun morning for this thread.

 

Not sure if you're talking about the pics I posted.

 

I was showing the best I could get the game to look without high res textures, using AA & force mipmap filter. But I never claimed it could turn low res textures magically into high res. Some of the pics people were posting as comparisons were just laughably low quality, not representative of the actual game at all.

Edited January 13, 2012 by daemian

[Zorvan]

Anyone confirm beta had two SWTOR.exe running? Any screenshots?

 

Yes, there were 2 swtor.exe files running in beta.

 

It was assumed one was just a debugger, and EAware did nothing to dispel that assumption, of course.

[Zorvan]

wait...are you serious....? SWTOR doesn't multi thread? You got a source?

 

The only multithreading it has is what EAware cobbled into it.

 

Heroengine itself is singlethreaded, soon to be multi-threaded.

 

However, since it came right from the Heroengine developers keyboard that EAware has used no updates from Heroengine for the last 3 years, anything the Heroengine developers have done or continue to do to improve the engine means squat as far as the version we're all running on.

[mArchangel]

The only multithreading it has is what EAware cobbled into it.

 

Heroengine itself is singlethreaded, soon to be multi-threaded.

 

However, since it came right from the Heroengine developers keyboard that EAware has used no updates from Heroengine for the last 3 years, anything the Heroengine developers have done or continue to do to improve the engine means squat as far as the version we're all running on.

 

I am on the same page and disappointed with textures etc....enough said....but, do you guys truly believe you would even have the slightest clue at what stage the engine the game runs on is? I am sorry, I find this kinda ridiculous. BioWare would have further developed the engine to an extent we cannot fathom or understand(most of us). All such claims are unfunded and speculation unless confirmed by actual BioWare developers.

 

P.S. I find it offensive to call BioWare EAware btw. EA is JUST a publisher that's it. If this was a 100% pure EA product we would get jack all. Keep that in mind please.

[daemian]

However, since it came right from the Heroengine developers keyboard that EAware has used no updates from Heroengine for the last 3 years, anything the Heroengine developers have done or continue to do to improve the engine means squat as far as the version we're all running on.

 

True, but that doesn't mean it's the same engine they purchased back then. They've done extensive work on it. It sounds like you're implying they haven't made any improvements to it at all.

[Zezel]

True, but that doesn't mean it's the same engine they purchased back then. They've done extensive work on it. It sounds like you're implying they haven't made any improvements to it at all.

 

Have they?

[Khechari]

Not sure if you're talking about the pics I posted.

 

I was showing the best I could get the game to look without high res textures, using AA & force mipmap filter. But I never claimed it could turn low res textures magically into high res. Some of the pics people were posting as comparisons were just laughably low quality, not representative of the actual game at all.

 

Pretty sure it wasn't you.

[Mormack]

Have they?

 

Game Bottlenecks when more then 2 cores are present (Quad Core here, 8 threads...serious Bottlenecks)

 

Game runs a 2nd process with a Remote_Render.dll file.

 

Game has issues rendering high rez textures even on high end machines...

 

 

Doesn't sound too recent or optimal to me

[myrmexaw]

If i was ati or nvidia i'd be really pissed at electronic arts .... they're basically trying to turn their highest value video cards into console port ... Completely defeating the purpose of having to spend up to 500$ on high quality video card.

 

 

EA = Communist

[daemian]

Have they?

 

Well, they've modified it heavily beyond its original state when they licensed it. Whether or not that's an improvement, that's a matter of opinion.

Edited January 13, 2012 by daemian

[Mackuss]

Well, they've modified it heavily beyond its original state when they licensed it. Whether or not that's an improvement, that's a matter of opinion.

 

see

 

Game Bottlenecks when more then 2 cores are present (Quad Core here, 8 threads...serious Bottlenecks)

 

Game runs a 2nd process with a Remote_Render.dll file.

 

Game has issues rendering high rez textures even on high end machines...

 

 

Doesn't sound too recent or optimal to me

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Paragons]

Its funny you stand there for a sec and 50-60% of someones armor starts popping; looks pretty good but then you notice the other half looks like your playing the game in low; especially on sith an BH armors I notice this. It just looks like crap....Like nothings loading. I knew I wasn't crazy lol. (Then again could just be a fleet thing) The game does look worse then it did. And now I see it everywhere I look after reading this. I might be jumping on the witch hunt train now; but I swear it looked better before last patch. Tons of popping now...

 

Its still annoying that the higher end users even have to force most the candy on...Only saying that because the Beta client was better performance wise....

 

I saw a post saying in 1.2 this stuff was going to be worked on... 1.1 is only AA finally being enabled in game options.

 

Sure there are tons of other issues. Leaks etc...the people relating this issue to core(s), etc are just lol....This is texture related and on their end... This client is BS, even if it did fix certain things; it busted others...

 

And hey i'm a fan..I know its not easy and they are doing a decent job...but its just flabbergasted at how the client thing went.

[AnotherJaggens]

True, but that doesn't mean it's the same engine they purchased back then. They've done extensive work on it. It sounds like you're implying they haven't made any improvements to it at all.

 

And here we go to engine architecturing.

Engine got core. It operates basic functions and how different parts of engine collaborate with each other.

This is pure speculation, I don't have any facts, but what I believe is - they got engine 3 years ago. HE developer claims that since then they didn't contact for consultation. So TOR developers took what they got apart, threw away what they won't use, and then to enchance core BUT without touching integrity too harsh outsourced what they need in mysterious second "swtor.exe". And by magic (but not against logic) this solution isn't working well and very picky about what it likes. End of speculation.

[daemian]

see

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Yeah, I've seen a few comments about performance with multiple cores. My computer uses all 8 cores with only TOR running and a lot of services disabled. Not sure why it happens on some machines and not others.

 

For me it runs very well, and I have never had a single crash or corrupt client, not even in months of beta tests. But it's a lot more taxing on my system than I would have expected, based on performance in other games.

[Zezel]

If i was ati or nvidia i'd be really pissed at electronic arts .... they're basically trying to turn their highest value video cards into console port ... Completely defeating the purpose of having to spend up to 500$ on high quality video card.

 

Yeah I've been watching AMD for an official work around, so far nothing except a post from Vantharas.

 

"This game engine is a mumbo jumbo of mess. Bioware are already "looking into game engine performance. There are many people with 4ghz I7s and 68XX ++ / 560GTX ++ who are getting in the 20's. Its even worse in pvp for alot of people. Bioware has a LONG way to go as far as this game engine is concerned.

 

There is no need for you to say AMD this / That as it simply is NOT there problem. The only thing they need to work on is crossfire profiles. As it is non functioning atm."

 

 

http://forums.amd.com/game/categories.cfm?catid=229

[Mackuss]

Yeah, I've seen a few comments about performance with multiple cores. My computer uses all 8 cores with only TOR running and a lot of services disabled. Not sure why it happens on some machines and not others.

 

For me it runs very well, and I have never had a single crash or corrupt client, not even in months of beta tests. But it's a lot more taxing on my system than I would have expected, based on performance in other games.

 

Then I'd like to ask you a few questions.

 

Which client are you currently using and when did you download it? you said months of BETA testing, so clearly you were testing before Thanksgiving, but that doens't entirely mean you didn't redownload the client for that weekend.

 

Not trying to be mean, by your utmost honesty is crucial here. The CURRENT client you are using - when did you download it? (you could help diagnose this entire thing).

Edited January 13, 2012 by Mackuss

[daemian]

And here we go to engine architecturing.

Engine got core. It operates basic functions and how different parts of engine collaborate with each other.

This is pure speculation, I don't have any facts, but what I believe is - they got engine 3 years ago. HE developer claims that since then they didn't contact for consultation. So TOR developers took what they got apart, threw away what they won't use, and then to enchance core BUT without touching integrity too harsh outsourced what they need in mysterious second "swtor.exe". And by magic (but not against logic) this solution isn't working well and very picky about what it likes. End of speculation.

 

If I look at my task manager right now (I'm doing some crafting while I read), there are 2 swtor.exe processes running. It's been like that as long as I can remember. I have no idea what that implies, and neither do most people, I'm betting.

 

As for the modifications to Hero Engine, I know there were a lot of articles and interviews during development that talked specifically about it, if you want to know more. One example is this article from PCGames hardware:

 

"HeroEngine provides an excellent platform upon which to prototype our game. During the course of development we have modified HeroEngine as required to support the broad feature set of the game we have undertaken, and to scale to the level of usage we hope to achieve...

 

Physics in the game is our own and for our cinematic sound design, we utilize Wwise...

 

The Old Republic greatly takes advantage of multi-core. Multi-core both improves frame rate and smoothness by offloading work to the extra cores such as disk IO, rendering or audio..."

 

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,767634/Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-Bioware-considering-Direct-X-11-in-the-future/News/

[daemian]

Then I'd like to ask you a few questions.

 

Which client are you currently using and when did you download it? you said months of BETA testing, so clearly you were testing before Thanksgiving, but that doens't entirely mean you didn't redownload the client for that weekend.

 

Not trying to be mean, by your utmost honest is crucial here. The CURRENT client you are using - when did you download it?

 

I deleted the final beta client and all related files prior to the December early access period. And I regularly purge my registry, if that's relevant.

 

My final swtor folder at the end of beta was about 38 GB. Right now it's 19.4 GB. The client I'm using now was downloaded fresh and installed as soon as it was available for early access.

Edited January 13, 2012 by daemian

[Mackuss]

I deleted the final beta client and all related files prior to the December early access period. And I regularly purge my registry, if that's relevant.

 

My final swtor folder at the end of beta was about 38 GB. Right now it's 19.4 GB. The client I'm using now was downloaded fresh and installed as soon as it was available for early access.

 

Man this really lends more to a theory I've been having lately. I REALLY hope you're not lying (I'm REALLY not trying to come off as sounding rude but you know, there are a lot of trolls out there) - but I've had this theory that, even though Bioware said that people who took part in the Thanksgiving BETA weekend don't need to redownload it, that maybe that actually had a lot to do with it. After all, it only keeps in line with their trend of testing things for very long.

 

I've been considering deleting it and reinstalling a fresh client - but it's such a huge install I didn't want to do it all over again.....this isn't conclusive but it really does lend more credibility to my theory.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Mackuss

[Unruhe]

P.S. I find it offensive to call BioWare EAware btw. EA is JUST a publisher that's it. If this was a 100% pure EA product we would get jack all. Keep that in mind please.

 

"BioWare is a label of Electronic Arts"

 

There are 6 or 7 different "BioWare" studios now. Pretty sure that means 5 or 6 of them have nothing to do with BioWare except for the name on the front of the building.

[AnotherJaggens]

Physics in the game is our own and for our cinematic sound design, we utilize Wwise...

 

The Old Republic greatly takes advantage of multi-core. Multi-core both improves frame rate and smoothness by offloading work to the extra cores such as disk IO, rendering or audio..."

 

First part is peripherals, second one achieved only by modifications to core. And yknow, changing core without developer comments (i mean engine developer) have never never never NEVER NEVER NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!!

NEVER!!!!

been a good idea. Yeah, you may (or may not) get improvements in framefrate. And at same time **** up stability and, as i said, make it picky about hardware. Just because you did not develop it and did not consult with creator about "improvements" you are going to implement.

[daemian]

Man this really lends more to a theory I've been having lately. I REALLY hope you're not lying (I'm REALLY not trying to come off as sounding rude but you know, there are a lot of trolls out there) - but I've had this theory that, even though Bioware said that people who took part in the Thanksgiving BETA weekend don't need to redownload it, that maybe that actually had a lot to do with it. After all, it only keeps in line with their trend of testing things for very long.

 

I've been considering deleting it and reinstalling a fresh client - but it's such a huge install I didn't want to do it all over again.....this isn't conclusive but it really does lend more credibility to my theory.

 

I only redownloaded it because I knew it would be a smaller install without all the bloat from beta. I think they even had a sticky for while talking about it. Plus I'm kind of anal about keeping my system clean, because I have a lot of games and it gets cluttered pretty quickly.