BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've been enjoying TOR. I find the story engaging, the combat varied enough to provide enough choice to make me happy, and the setting to be top notch. But, is TOR really KOTOR 3-10 like the development team says? In a word, no. But up until a few nights ago, I was unable to put my finger on why even though this game is set in the Old Republic, it is not KOTOR. I was running around on Alderaan doing a quest for one of the houses when I had to go speak with one of the representatives of that house. He gave me his sob story and explained how there was nothing he could do and asked if I could be so kind as to help him. The whole time I was sitting there and I honestly didn't care what he had to say. Then it dawned on me. Not only did I not care about what he was saying, I didn't care about him as a character. And then I realized I hadn't cared about any of the characters in the game at all. I think, for me, that more than the bugs, and more than the performance problems, this is the biggest issue. Thinking back to KOTOR 1 and 2, what stood out the most was the writing. And not just the writing of the story. The dialogue and the interactions between other characters was thought out and top notch. Whether I despised the person, like Atris, admired them, like Canderous, or absolutely loved them, like HK-47, each character had their unique personality. Even quest givers and random characters had enough personality that I felt compelled to help them or hurt them. In TOR, I just don't find this to be the case. I have no connection to my companions, who are little more than pets, and quest givers come across as people who are either too lazy or too weak to do it themselves. Finally, interaction with my superiors is too sparse to be meaningful and I tend to lose sense of what it is I'm supposed to be doing. Perhaps that has something to do with the pacing. KOTOR puts you in the driver's seat straight away and keeps you there for 20 hours. With TOR, I feel like I'm sitting comfortably in the back seat merely enjoying the ride. More quests are needed, so more characters are written to give these quests. And, as more characters are written, less time is spent on each one and they become less complex. I understand the desire to make the planets "characters" in a sense, and highlighting the problems of its citizens is important; but if you don't make me CARE about them, then as a writer, your job hasn't been 100% successful. Sure, every character is voice acted, but if I don't care about what comes out of their mouths, so what? In fact, the times I do care about what is going on are during flashpoints when I have other real people making choices on their end during conversations as we work toward a common goal. In reality it's the players that give TOR depth, not the characters who were already there; TOR is butter spread over too much bread. The game's replay value is inherent. With eight different classes, there are eight different stories. However, the enjoyment just isn't as high as with KOTOR, especially 2. The little changes such as gender, romance, influence, moral choice, made KOTOR 1 and 2 worth replaying because there was a sense that the little things had huge consequences. TOR just isn't like that. I've spent close to 100 hours in-game. That still doesn't touch the amount of time I spent playing and replaying KOTOR 1 and 2. In the end, TOR is massive, but not epic, long, but not deep, and is most definitely not KOTOR 3-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's amazing how quickly things fly off page 1... Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmack Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 This is a mmo for the super causal, things need to be dumbed down and quick to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMonger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What I don't understand is why everyone seems to want to think that this, what SWTOR is now, is all it's EVER going to be. Why everyone keeps basing their arguments on the assumption that storylines won't be extended through expansions with level cap increases. Especially when all the storylines leave tons of room for continuation. But..whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 This is a mmo for the super causal, things need to be dumbed down and quick to the point. I think many in the community would take umbrage with that sentiment. 10 minutes on the forums shows that most people don't need anything dumbed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valperion Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Its a KOTOR 3 co-op game. They advertised swtor as a mmo, sadly I am not seeing the mmo aspect of this game. Tbh I wish bioware would just make KOTOR 3 into a single player game just like how Skyrim was made. Edited January 12, 2012 by Valperion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruxe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 In the end, TOR ...is most definitely not KOTOR 3-10. Yet. /10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmack Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Maybe we don't but you can clearly see that this game is marketed for causal / new mmo players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YooYooMa Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 This game isn't even a suitable KotOR 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMonger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 This is a mmo for the super causal, things need to be dumbed down and quick to the point. That's because this is an MMO targeting market share, and if there's one thing WoW has taught us, it's that lots and lots of people will play casual MMO's, while substantially fewer people will play less casual MMO's like EVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyraele Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hmm, and for me I feel very compelled to help or not help characters. I get engaged. I guess it is just different for each person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Mike, I'm not saying that things won't change/be added to the game. That isn't the issue. I'm just expressing some disappointment in Bioware's lack of characterization for this game. Had it been any other developer, this caliber of writing would likely be above what anyone expected. However, Bioware has a reputation for brilliant writing and characterization. This just isn't at the top of that list. What I don't understand is why everyone seems to want to think that this, what SWTOR is now, is all it's EVER going to be. Why everyone keeps basing their arguments on the assumption that storylines won't be extended through expansions with level cap increases. Especially when all the storylines leave tons of room for continuation. But..whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmack Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hmm, and for me I feel very compelled to help or not help characters. I get engaged. I guess it is just different for each person. Go play any KOTOR game then come back and play this again. You will see what we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YooYooMa Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Mike, I'm not saying that things won't change/be added to the game. That isn't the issue. I'm just expressing some disappointment in Bioware's lack of characterization for this game. Had it been any other developer, this caliber of writing would likely be above what anyone expected. However, Bioware has a reputation for brilliant writing and characterization. This just isn't at the top of that list. DA2 and ME2 have pretty poor writing, even by Video Game standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hmm, and for me I feel very compelled to help or not help characters. I get engaged. I guess it is just different for each person. And that's great. Seriously, I'm glad that the immersion is there for you. But few things pull me out of a game, or any form of entertainment for that matter, more quickly than poor characterization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheroras Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's amazing how quickly things fly off page 1... Bump. its not quite 8 distinct games, and that is a problem. there is too much shared content that only becomes obvious when rolling an alt. what was 'immersive' the first time through for each realm/faction becomes tedium on the second or third pass. from a console point of view, this would make for great dlc revenue if done with some thought. trying to bundle this into a single package is the single point at which i can find a flaw in the marketing strategy of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 DA2 and ME2 have pretty poor writing, even by Video Game standards. I have to admit that I enjoyed DA2 more than DA:O. As far as ME2, the best writing was the Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DredWes Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." That and sitcoms. I like the class stories. The quest givers? Not so much. I really hate when they are done talking they just turn their back. Makes me what to shoot them in the back of the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyraele Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Go play any KOTOR game then come back and play this again. You will see what we are talking about. I have played KOTOR a couple times. My comment still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 There is too much shared content that only becomes obvious when rolling an alt. what was 'immersive' the first time through for each realm/faction becomes tedium on the second or third pass. This is a great point. There has to be something that keeps the story immersive even when you know it like the back of your hand. At this point, I don't know what it is for TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMonger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Mike, I'm not saying that things won't change/be added to the game. That isn't the issue. I'm just expressing some disappointment in Bioware's lack of characterization for this game. Had it been any other developer, this caliber of writing would likely be above what anyone expected. However, Bioware has a reputation for brilliant writing and characterization. This just isn't at the top of that list. Bioware really hasn't made a truely mind blowing game since Baldur's Gate 2, IMHO. But their writing still tends to be well above what the rest of the industry is putting out...for the most part. And a lot of what you get out the characterization in this game really does rely on which class you're playing. For example, I found the trooper storyline to be extremely dull. But the inquisitor one is far more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfabulous Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What I don't understand is why everyone seems to want to think that this, what SWTOR is now, is all it's EVER going to be. Why everyone keeps basing their arguments on the assumption that storylines won't be extended through expansions with level cap increases. Especially when all the storylines leave tons of room for continuation. But..whatever. I recall him saying if you read at all the story is fine, but the interactions you make are worthless. Are they going to upgrade every quest giver? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) And a lot of what you get out the characterization in this game really does rely on which class you're playing. The game does reek of writing by committee, even though that's the only way it can be done. Naturally, some stories will be stronger/more interesting than others. Edited January 12, 2012 by BronKyja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronKyja Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 like the class stories. The quest givers? Not so much. I really hate when they are done talking they just turn their back. Makes me what to shoot them in the back of the head. I've had that urge a time or two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnijung Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Its a KOTOR 3 co-op game. They advertised swtor as a mmo, sadly I am not seeing the mmo aspect of this game. Tbh I wish bioware would just make KOTOR 3 into a single player game just like how Skyrim was made. Exactly what elements are missing from swtor that do not make swtor a mmo? Edited January 12, 2012 by Magnijung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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