John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) One of the most iconic moves in the entire star wars universe totally ruined for Sentinels and Marauders. We do not get Saber Throw(30meters range) , so our next best thing is this spell along with deadly throw(another saber throw) and they both have the ridiculous range of 10meters!! Now seriously , lorewise , gameplaywise AND balance wise those moves and especially AND without doubt the vicious throw (the finisher) should definitely have a range of at least 20 meters... Yours truly, -Mad Sentinel. P.S. lorewise the saber throw move is rare because it makes you let your guard down , it makes zero sense that a dual wielding saber user with a second weapon to guard himself has the lesser version of it.... MIRROR: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1507793#post1507793 Edited January 17, 2012 by John_Locke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Balance wise, its just fine. If you let a target that you burned down to <20% get more than 10meters away from you, you did something wrong 90% of the time. Otherwise....force charge -> whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Balance wise, its just fine. If you let a target that you burned down to <20% get more than 10meters away from you, you did something wrong 90% of the time. Otherwise....force charge -> whatever. No it is a finisher it still makes more sense for it to be longer range , especially if you realise that all the other finishers in the game are use-able at 30% and not 20% of the enemy hp, both ranged and melee ones. So ours being at 20% it has to have a pro , not only cons. By the way with your logic , everything is always fine since well.. you can help it! You can always help it man but what does that mean?We could probably still do "okay" if we get many more nerfs , should we get them? Edited January 12, 2012 by John_Locke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoritomo Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I can't believe you'd say that when we contend with knockbacks, sprint, vanish, powerup sprint, pull, and charge. I think it would be significantly better, balance wise, to give a baseline second gap closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I can't believe you'd say that when we contend with knockbacks, sprint, vanish, powerup sprint, pull, and charge. I think it would be significantly better, balance wise, to give a baseline second gap closer. Use quotes , please.Are you replying to me or the other poster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) No it is a finisher it still makes more sense for it to be longer range , especially if you realise that all the other finishers in the game are use-able at 30% and not 20% of the enemy hp, both ranged and melee ones. Nothing about it being a finisher makes me think it should be long range. This is a melee class. Being 10 meters is already a boon in my opinion. Please elaborate. So ours being at 20% it has to have a pro , not only cons. It does, being 10m range instead of melee range, on a melee class. By the way with your logic , everything is always fine since well.. you can help it! You can always help it man but what does that mean?We could probably still do "okay" if we get many more nerfs , should we get them? I could twist your logic just as easily. There is this wonderful thing called the Principle of Charity you should look up before engaging in "logic" discussions. Edited January 12, 2012 by Sayc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Nothing about it being a finisher makes me think it should be long range. This is a melee class. Being 10 meters is already a boon in my opinion. Please elaborate. It does, being 10m range instead of melee range, on a melee class. I could twist your logic just as easily. There is this wonderful thing called the Principle of Charity you should look up before engaging in "logic" discussions. Oh my god.. You want me to follow the principle of charity , when you used the expression , "you are doing something wrong"? I can assure your it was not rational.There are many times you CAN be on to someone and yes your leap CAN be on cooldown. Your class is not meant to punish you but yes not to nourish you either , but it must provide you with a sufficient number of tools to overcome a wide variety of challenges. This class has compared to other ones very few tools , but am not complaining about that , we all know you don't compare an orange with an apple. So in my opinion (since balancing choices eventually come down to that..) the sentinel and the marauder classes need their finisher to have more range. It makes perfect sense for us to have ONE ranged move and i can assure you it won't disrupt balance , since well it is the most situational damaging move in the game. Plus it will live up to its name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Oh my god.. You want me to follow the principle of charity , when you used the expression , "you are doing something wrong"? I can assure your it was not rational.There are many times you CAN be on to someone and yes your leap CAN be on cooldown. Assuming that someone on public forums such as these is competent simply is not a reasonable assumption. This class has compared to other ones very few tools The issue is, we have plenty of tools. Maintainable -50% slow, each spec has their own ranged immobilize or slow(no minimum range force charge with -cd for anni, deadly throw for carnage, force crush for rage), a second gap closer for rage, force choke, predation, ataru form, etc. Based on experience with those tools, the times when someone gets out of range of you at <20% of their health is very limited. It makes perfect sense for us to have ONE ranged move I asked you to elaborate on this in my last post, and this certainly didn't help. Edited January 12, 2012 by Sayc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Assuming that someone on public forums such as these is competent simply is not a reasonable assumption. The issue is, we have plenty of tools. Maintainable -50% slow, each spec has their own ranged immobilize or slow(no minimum range force charge with -cd for anni, deadly throw for carnage, force crush for rage), a second gap closer for rage, force choke, predation, ataru form, etc. Based on experience with those tools, the times when someone gets out of range of you at <20% of their health is very limited. I asked you to elaborate on this in my last post, and this certainly didn't help. Crafting theories is always easy. Ok so you charge , the trooper uses his cryo grenade and backs off again.Your crippling throw range is 10m only. Live until you pull a second charge off?Trooper has a knockback. Am not saying that now my argument is stronger , am just asking you to stop the theorycrafting. We have zero ranged abillites , having one which also is so situational can only help and surely not break balance( it is a finisher , it is meant to be quite effective at killing.Not 100% but way more effective than normal moves) Asking me to elaborate is wrong. Could you elaborate why the spell should NOT have 30m range like it used to have in earlier stages of the game? Edited January 12, 2012 by John_Locke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Crafting theories is always easy. Ok so you charge , the trooper uses his cryo grenade and backs off again.Your crippling throw range is 10m only. Live until you pull a second charge off?Trooper has a knockback. Am not saying that now my argument is stronger , am just asking you to stop the theorycrafting. HIPS or use los or a cooldown to get back into melee range without taking too much damage. Save your second charge for after his knockback. Its not theorycraft, its experience. I am almost never kited. We have zero ranged abillites , having one which also is so situation can only help and surely not break balance( it is a finisher , it is meant to be quite effective at killing.Not 100% but way more effective than normal moves) This is a pretty subtle change, and would be so situational that any overall sense of balance would hardly be preserved. Asking me to elaborate is wrong. Could you elaborate why the spell should NOT have 30m range like it used to have in earlier stages of the game? Asking you to elaborate why is not wrong. You have claimed twice now that it makes perfect sense. That "perfect sense" is not common sense. I don't think it should have a 30meter range because in the majority of situations a marauder will experience it will not change anything, and in the minority of situations it will enable the marauder to get kills that a marauder shouldn't be able to get. This minority would entail situations such as being knocked off platforms(not merely knocked back), suffering knockbacks/pulls from multiple opponents, and other similar counters to melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonumbers Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It does, being 10m range instead of melee range, on a melee class. Saber throws were originally meant to bridge part of the limitation of being a melee ranged fighter as being one of our rare but usable long ranged attacks, in the Beta saber throws were 30 Meters. Generally the limitation of being a melee ranged fighter is balanced with a few things whereas Marauder is not really balanced with anything for it's melee range right now which is a big flaw in the class balance or there lack of. I'd say it's a lesser problem for Juggernaut but still a problem that there is still no real benefit for Melee Range, the ranged tanking and DPS classes tank and DPS just as well or perhaps even slightly better which is the wrong way around, sure there is a lot of ranged bosses as such in SWTOR but there is a lot of melee bosses too and for Melee bosses ranged characters have very very clear advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterprtzl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How is it not common sense to think that a saber throw should have more than 10m range? You arguments are just asking him to continue to explain what he has already explained, and its pretty pathetic. saying "its fine how it is, and you must suck" isnt a valid argument, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spdaconqueror Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yeah I agree that Vicious throw should be an actual THROW. They should rename it to Vicious close up and personal strike. I still use it often but it annoys me that its not a ranged throw. Just a minor annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firequill Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 just to be clear: 1 meter in star wars equals 0,25 real meters, right? because that's the range of it.. it feels nowhere near 10 meters to begin with. 4, tops. 2 character lenghts away from the target and i get "out of range".. so either i'm five meters tall or scale is utterly out of whack. anyone feels the same, or is it just me? p.s i've had ravages hit targets that a throw could not. ds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReFlexionn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Balance wise, its just fine. If you let a target that you burned down to <20% get more than 10meters away from you, you did something wrong 90% of the time. Otherwise....force charge -> whatever. not when u get stun and he gets away with it my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 just to be clear: 1 meter in star wars equals 0,25 real meters, right? because that's the range of it.. it feels nowhere near 10 meters to begin with. 4, tops. 2 character lenghts away from the target and i get "out of range".. so either i'm five meters tall or scale is utterly out of whack. anyone feels the same, or is it just me? p.s i've had ravages hit targets that a throw could not. ds thank you... the 10m in game is actually 10yrds and i do believe it was just to NOT share the name with the "other" MMO .... Anyway the range of most saber throws for sentinel and maraudes should be MORE than just DOUBLE my melee range! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laslaya Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Nothing about it being a finisher makes me think it should be long range. This is a melee class. Being 10 meters is already a boon in my opinion. Please elaborate. It does, being 10m range instead of melee range, on a melee class. I could twist your logic just as easily. There is this wonderful thing called the Principle of Charity you should look up before engaging in "logic" discussions. You keep writing "melee class" like thats some sort of reasoning as to why this shouldn't be a ranged attack. I guess ranged classes don't have melee abilities either? You need to troll less, its starting to show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) it only makes sense i dont understand why this doesnt revert to its former state Edited January 13, 2012 by John_Locke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalGenocide Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I wouldn't mind a 5m increase on the fnisher and a 10m increase on the normal throw. Not enough to break anything, but enough to look like a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noth Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If they must keep it 10 meters and below 20% give it some advantage compsred to the 30meter 30% of teh sniper and 30% of the assassin. They all do similar damage. Maybe give it increase chance to crit or increased crit damage for every percent the target is under 20% health? Maybe add a snare? A root? Allow it to be spammable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyzeast Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I was so happy when I got vicious throw and went into a bg to try it out only to find that most of the time it wouldn't even go off, then i realized it only has a slightly farther than melee range of 10m and cost 3 rage, i almost threw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Why melee class have no ranged?! I am disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Locke Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 If they must keep it 10 meters and below 20% give it some advantage compsred to the 30meter 30% of teh sniper and 30% of the assassin. They all do similar damage. Maybe give it increase chance to crit or increased crit damage for every percent the target is under 20% health? Maybe add a snare? A root? Allow it to be spammable? It just needs a 20-30 m range , all the rest sound wrong man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) You arguments are just asking him to continue to explain what he has already explained I don't think it should have a 30meter range because in the majority of situations a marauder will experience it will not change anything, and in the minority of situations it will enable the marauder to get kills that a marauder shouldn't be able to get. This minority would entail situations such as being knocked off platforms(not merely knocked back), suffering knockbacks/pulls from multiple opponents, and other similar counters to melee. This thread makes me lol. All this "perfect sense" without even an attempt at support. I love how holding a different view than someone makes you a troll. Edited February 15, 2012 by Zilrota Removed - Old post. Rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorkon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I play a sin and my finisher movie is in melee range.. and wheres my Force leap/gap closer?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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