Developer Post: Warrior Classes

[Yoritomo]

I was pretty surprised (and frustrated) he said they considered the juggernaut to be in need of a more efficient way to stay in range, but didn't mention the marauder. We are subject to the same problems and we don't have the option to spec into unstoppable and we don't have intercede. Edited January 12, 2012 by Yoritomo

[Drankathar]

I would be really happy if the warrior class's (SW and Jedi) got a force pull ability, it would be very fluffy for both class's IMO and a Mara (cause I play this class) would just feel right with this ability.

[dantoqr]

Nice to hear that they are working up things ! And yes we as Marauders do have some of the most complex rotations in regards to PVP and I can frankly say that we can be very very hard to deal with if we master the class properly. For example people say we can get kited a lot, but I'm wondering how many of you are actually using their slow ability, their Force Choke, their "Stealth Ability" ( forgot name ) and every other thing that we have. Every spec for Marauders have awsome "gap closers" and people just need to learn how to use them, also we have LOADS of defensive CDs that if used properly can make us very very hard to kill on 1v1.

Anyhow, as already stated we only need that "ability delay" thing to be fixed, sometimes it does get really annoying I have to admit, but everything else is fine, I could only say that this class is bound to be a high skill capped class and thus makes it unique and fun.

 

P.S. Marauders.. instead of staying here all day QQing about this and that start actually reading each of you talents and each of your abilities, start making up strategies againts other classes and start learning how to play at a higher level.

 

Regards,

Tuf - Uthar Wynn

[Avigatorx]

Becase what other stats would be on the second might?? The other 2 are for jugg dps/tank.. You could always use those too.. Theres no reason for 2 mights lol

 

By 2 I meant that if you check any commendation mods vendor, for example: Guardian 17, Guardian 18, Skill 17, Skill 18, Patron 17, Patron 18, etc etc..... Until you come to Might, which is normally just Might 17 (the lower level of the 2)

 

I did not play beta, so maybe someone who did may know, but I can't help but feel that Marauder was originally a heavy armor class, and some last minute plan change knocked us down to medium armor. Hence the discrepancies I find on vendors, or even general itemization for marauders.

 

And in my original post, I wasnt talking survivability in terms of escapes (more pvp oriented, although maybe that applies as well, as others have posted), but I was talking more actual damage mitigation. We take ALOT of damage in PvE. (at least from my own personal observation.)

 

I can deal with that, if the trade-off is that we do far superior damage than other multi-role classes.

 

Having played mmo type games for a long time, I realize that this is an age-old argument that has never really found a proper solution.

 

Pure dps classes ie WoW or EQ rogues, mages, etc, always get shafted.

 

The sacrifice we make in foregoing other utility, such as ability to tank or heal is never made up in terms of raw dps advantage.

 

My gripe is this, if the devs have an agenda which calls for dps between classes to be within certain parameters (i saw posted somewhere, not sure if it is accurate, but within 5% of one another, for arguments sake), then pure dps classes like marauder need to be compensated with added versatility such as limited tanking or healing. (NOT that I want that mind you, I'd much prefer RAW DPS. But in the alternative, we need something to keep people interested in the class rather than rolling the next Tank-mage that does 5% less dps than we do.

 

 

Again, I didn't beta, don't know the math, don't know all the dev quotes. Just my impression as a person that has played alot of these types of games in high-end raid type environments.

 

 

P.S. I love playing the Marauder, I am just trying to make sure my favorite class is still viable at the end-game.

[Sayc]

I am disappointed that they did not make marauder/sniper the exception to the rule of approximately even dps between classes. They're the only pure dps classes.

[Gasht]

My gripe is this, if the devs have an agenda which calls for dps between classes to be within certain parameters (i saw posted somewhere, not sure if it is accurate, but within 5% of one another, for arguments sake), then pure dps classes like marauder need to be compensated with added versatility such as limited tanking or healing. (NOT that I want that mind you, I'd much prefer RAW DPS. But in the alternative, we need something to keep people interested in the class rather than rolling the next Tank-mage that does 5% less dps than we do.

 

Rage jugger also pure dps. sniper is pure dps. arsenal merc is pure dps. pyro powertech is pure dps. Why marauder must have much higher dps than any of them?

 

And, anni mara actually can heal. in WZ it can heal 30-50k(low, compared to 150-200k heal of sorc, but mara has PASSIVE heal which come with damage)

also anni generates fury like hell and can maintain +15% damage/heal most of the time.

 

So, we have pretty good utility. Good dps. descent survivability. Surely, this class need some love, but it is absolutely NOT broken

[Avigatorx]

Rage jugger also pure dps. sniper is pure dps. arsenal merc is pure dps. pyro powertech is pure dps. Why marauder must have much higher dps than any of them?

 

And, anni mara actually can heal. in WZ it can heal 30-50k(low, compared to 150-200k heal of sorc, but mara has PASSIVE heal which come with damage)

also anni generates fury like hell and can maintain +15% damage/heal most of the time.

 

So, we have pretty good utility. Good dps. descent survivability. Surely, this class need some love, but it is absolutely NOT broken

 

 

Juggs and Powertechs are not pure dps, both are tank classes, and even if specc'd pure dps, they still can out-tank us due to heavy armor damage mitigation, among other things.

 

Juggs and PTs can simply re-spec if they are needed to tank heroics or raids, we (marauders) do not have that luxury.

 

As for snipers, I never said Marauders have to be 1337 dpzor in the game, only that classes which can only dps, should greatly out-dps the hybrid type classes.

 

Don't know enough about mercs to really talk about them, but I thought they had other functions too.

 

Anni-spec heals is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ability to heal others, not yourself

 

No offense, but your comparing apples to oranges.

[Sayc]

also anni generates fury like hell and can maintain +15% damage/heal most of the time.

 

I want to see someone maintain a 15s duration 5min cd buff.

[Munx]

I want to see someone maintain a 15s duration 5min cd buff.

 

Indeed, shows just how clueless the poster you replied to is

[Neekor]

With my Juggernaut it felt like when I reached lvl 50, I'm useless and die to everything, but now with some gear I just kick everyone in his ***.

 

 

I don't know but it seems like the melees are here the classes or scale on gear.

 

I Mean a full PvP geared sorc does do mine Juggernaut Vegance skilled no dmg!

 

I just jump on him and **** his shield with my Impale that crits for 3k and then a force scream who crits to 100%.

 

 

Btw the Saber Throw is just to get Rage, it does only 1k dmg srsly also Mara is the only class I think with a **** HEAL reduce!

 

As Juggernaut I feel me **** OP cuz I easy farm 10-14 Medas.

 

I do dmg like every class but I also have the **** taunts, I don't even need to change the Form to farm them.

 

They should Remove those hybrid spells, it's like BH as Merc, he does a lot of dmg and can heal like a ***.

[ZakPreston]

So, BW are buffing Jugg's utility which is even now vastly overshadows Marauder's?

• We (Marauders/Sentinels) have no stun
  
• We have no pushback/pull
  
• We deal rougly the same damage in PvP
  
• We have no tank-spec, therefore can't grind def medals
  
• We have much worse PASSIVE mitigation
  

 

And now you are telling that you even more buff their mobility (which is roughly the same), utility and survivability?

 

Question to Devs: Do you really assume that interface lags and delays are the only our (Mara/Sent) real issue?

 

 

I'm grealy sorry for my complains/whine/qq, but there is no fun being the only melee class with mediocre damage (full Champ Carnage spec), low passive def (24,5% kinetic/energy absorption and no elemental/tech def) and the lowest survivability while some of our def cds are down. No fun dying from 4.5-3-3-4.5k dmg combos of Opers or snipers.

 

Edited January 12, 2012 by ZakPreston

[Hizoka]

and the QQ begins.

 

 

What is really sad, is MANY people will see that as MASSIVE changes are coming when he said nothing in regards to marauders is ready to be changed. Any that they are the most complex to play but the only thing they are changing is fixing the ability delay.

 

THE CLASS IS NOT BROKEN, that is what GZ said.

[BrunoLogan]

I think survivability should be rechecked on the Marauder. I'm still level 27 but since I got Quiin I felt that I couldn't go back to Vette mainly on elite mobs or large packs. The healing is really needed. Maybe I'm not playing the right way (I'm going the Carnage tree btw). Sometimes, even with Quiin I have to use a medipack to stay alive until the end of the fight.

I really would like to use other companion besides Quiin (I just don't like him... lacks a sense of humor and it's extreme dedication to the Empire is, well, extreme).

 

What do you guys think?

[Hizoka]

I think survivability should be rechecked on the Marauder. I'm still level 27 but since I got Quiin I felt that I couldn't go back to Vette mainly on elite mobs or large packs. The healing is really needed. Maybe I'm not playing the right way (I'm going the Carnage tree btw). Sometimes, even with Quiin I have to use a medipack to stay alive until the end of the fight.

I really would like to use other companion besides Quiin (I just don't like him... lacks a sense of humor and it's extreme dedication to the Empire is, well, extreme).

 

What do you guys think?

 

then you are doing something wrong... the survivability is just fine if you use the skills you learn.

[Hizoka]

Juggs and Powertechs are not pure dps, both are tank classes, and even if specc'd pure dps, they still can out-tank us due to heavy armor damage mitigation, among other things.

 

Juggs and PTs can simply re-spec if they are needed to tank heroics or raids, we (marauders) do not have that luxury.

 

As for snipers, I never said Marauders have to be 1337 dpzor in the game, only that classes which can only dps, should greatly out-dps the hybrid type classes.

 

Don't know enough about mercs to really talk about them, but I thought they had other functions too.

 

Anni-spec heals is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ability to heal others, not yourself

 

No offense, but your comparing apples to oranges.

ok first. If you are not tank speced you ARE NOT A TANK. Sorry but if you think someone can be Vengance spec and tank something then you are beyond help man. And i know you are not with it because the snipers and Marauders ARE BETTER DP then everyone else speced for DPS WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY. That means you cannot herp-a-derp and do better damage if that is what you want you are in the wrong game.

 

Just because a class CAN heal or CAN tank does not make them a tank class or a healer class.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hizoka

[Wivese]

I think juggernauts should have force pull and marauders should have force push georg. Force push would help survivability by giving another escape that goes nicely with force camo while pull for jugs would improve tanking viability in tank spec a bit. I don't think this would break balancing from what i can tell and would quell some of the qq about lacking cc. Also, it's just cool to be able to hurl mobs across the room. Give pull a 25m range and make it aoe up to 3. Give push 10-20m range aoe up to 3 mobs within a certain radius around the target mob. Adding this at around lvl 15 would be great but I guess this is nothing more than a late/early Christmas wish.

[jellOfish]

Rage jugger also pure dps. sniper is pure dps. arsenal merc is pure dps. pyro powertech is pure dps. Why marauder must have much higher dps than any of them?

 

And, anni mara actually can heal. in WZ it can heal 30-50k(low, compared to 150-200k heal of sorc, but mara has PASSIVE heal which come with damage)

also anni generates fury like hell and can maintain +15% damage/heal most of the time.

 

So, we have pretty good utility. Good dps. descent survivability. Surely, this class need some love, but it is absolutely NOT broken

 

Juggernaut has the option to spec into tanking, we don't. The other classes have range to offset the equality in damage. And I do not see how you can maintain +15% damage most of the time when it is on a 5 minute cooldown.

[Kodokai]

Wheres my force pull, thats what we need for an anti kite.

[Avigatorx]

ok first. If you are not tank speced you ARE NOT A TANK. Sorry but if you think someone can be Vengance spec and tank something then you are beyond help man. And i know you are not with it because the snipers and Marauders ARE BETTER DP then everyone else speced for DPS WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY. That means you cannot herp-a-derp and do better damage if that is what you want you are in the wrong game.

 

 

Been trying to keep this civil, but I'm gonna let my rage take over a bit here....

 

Get this through your soft little skull, a dps SPEC and a dps CLASS are two different things entirely.

 

Classes - for example juggs, have different talent trees they can use to perform different roles, juggs can CHOOSE to go all out tank or all out DPS.

 

The marauder class has 3 trees all have the same option, DPS, DPS, or DPS (All melee dps btw, not melee dps, ranged dps, or tanking, or healing, or anything else.)

 

If a jugg wants to tank, they can re-spec. Marauders cannot.

 

ANY class that wears heavy armor can tank better than a marauder, thats a fact. (Well, unless they are vastly undergeared.) Heavy armor mitigation is greater than medium armor mitigation, even the in game math shows you this.

 

Am I saying that a Jugg (or whatever), that is currently specced for dps, due to his own choice, is a great tank option? no. But it is undeniable that a heavy armor class, regardless of spec, is far better at mitigating damage and hence tanking mobs.

 

Moreover, I never said that Marauders werent good DPS. My point is that the marauder isnt doing as much damage as it should considering the CLASS can't perform any other roles whatsoever.

 

I think many of you are confusing my posts as a PvP related gripe. It is not.

 

My posts regarding Marauder class concerns are strictly looking at end-game PvE raiding.

 

Balancing PvP in these games is a nightmare, frankly, when I want good PvP I play BF3. Don't expect pvp to ever be balanced in an mmo, its a lesson in futility.

 

Sorry if I mis-read the tone of your post, if I didn't then I hope I get a few darkside points at least:P

[Hizoka]

Been trying to keep this civil, but I'm gonna let my rage take over a bit here....

 

Get this through your soft little skull, a dps SPEC and a dps CLASS are two different things entirely.

 

Classes - for example juggs, have different talent trees they can use to perform different roles, juggs can CHOOSE to go all out tank or all out DPS.

 

The marauder class has 3 trees all have the same option, DPS, DPS, or DPS (All melee dps btw, not melee dps, ranged dps, or tanking, or healing, or anything else.)

 

If a jugg wants to tank, they can re-spec. Marauders cannot.

 

ANY class that wears heavy armor can tank better than a marauder, thats a fact. (Well, unless they are vastly undergeared.) Heavy armor mitigation is greater than medium armor mitigation, even the in game math shows you this.

 

Am I saying that a Jugg (or whatever), that is currently specced for dps, due to his own choice, is a great tank option? no. But it is undeniable that a heavy armor class, regardless of spec, is far better at mitigating damage and hence tanking mobs.

 

Moreover, I never said that Marauders werent good DPS. My point is that the marauder isnt doing as much damage as it should considering the CLASS can't perform any other roles whatsoever.

 

I think many of you are confusing my posts as a PvP related gripe. It is not.

 

My posts regarding Marauder class concerns are strictly looking at end-game PvE raiding.

 

Balancing PvP in these games is a nightmare, frankly, when I want good PvP I play BF3. Don't expect pvp to ever be balanced in an mmo, its a lesson in futility.

 

Sorry if I mis-read the tone of your post, if I didn't then I hope I get a few darkside points at least:P

 

so you very very very wrong impression is that a Jugg who is speced for DPS is still a tank.

 

In the words of Zeoller "A Juggernaut is not a tank class, it is a class with the option of tanking"

 

Its a shame you cannot grasp that idea.

 

one of the things you so ignorantly missed is that the light armor classes all tank better as well. but that is a different issue, the main issue is you are so blinded that you cannot see there is no "tank" class just classes that can tank.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hizoka

[Tilure]

so you very very very wrong impression is that a Jugg who is speced for DPS is still a tank.

 

In the words of Zeoller "A Juggernaut is not a tank class, it is a class with the option of tanking"

 

Its a shame you cannot grasp that idea.

 

one of the things you so ignorantly missed is that the light armor classes all tank better as well. but that is a different issue, the main issue is you are so blinded that you cannot see there is no "tank" class just classes that can tank.

 

You are really good at misinterpreting what people write.

 

He clearly said the jugg has the option to tank and marauders don't at all.

 

Then he said that juggs have Heavy armor, which means when they are in a dps they have greater base damage mitigation then marauders.

 

Its a shame that you feel the need to belittle the peers of your community, rather then provide constructive rebuttals to the actual words they have written.

 

Light armor classes when in their tanking specs do have greater damage mitigation then Marauders and when they aren't in their tanking specs they don't (lets not talk about there cooldowns). Which is why there would be no point to mentioning it.

 

 

However you could compare PT/Merc to jugg/mara. BH base armor type is heavy and when they spec to PT they get the option to tank or dps and retain heavy armor. This means that a mercs from armor damage mitigation is the same as a PT, so when they are both in their dps specs they have the SAME from armor mitigation and by rule their dps is within the 5% margin.

 

SO, why then does the marauder have a base from armor mitigation that is lower then the Jugs? What purpose does this serve? Our dps numbers are within the 5% margin of all dps, why do we suffer this inequality when the PT/Merc doesn't? On top of that the PT/Merc also retains the full set of roles, Tank,DPS,Healing. While the Jugg/Mara is Tank/DPS.

 

On one final note to all forum posters. Forum posting is not PvP, you do not "win". Nearly everything said about class balance is opinion and every decision that BW makes is ultimatle their opinion.

 

When someone says:

Marauder survive-ability is fine. (Opinion)

Marauder survive-ability is not fine (Opinion)

 

Mauraders can sacrifice 50% of their health for 99% damage reduction for 5 secs(Fact). This ability makes them survivable(Opinion).

 

Creating a fact based argument for the survive-ability of marauders is nearly impossible, as the only facts that you can provide are the actual details of the skill, then within the context of an example you could provide your OPINION, about when to use them. You could also perhaps provide "video" evidence. This however is anecdotal evidence and not factual. I could expound more on this but this post is already long enough. Instead I will close by saying, that treating other members of the community with disrespect or an attitude of disgust is not helpful. We are all here to enjoy this game and if the author of post is giving opinions you disagree with, you can easily offer your own opinions and experiences without making personal attacks, disrespectful or snide comments on his intelligence, quality of vision, or lack of judgement.

[NuSeC]

I have a lvl 35 SM and have noticed that even geared right it is still a huge pain in the *** trying to find groups to do any missions because they want distance dps, a healer and a tank. I do not fill any of these shoes as I have to be right up on someone beating the dodo out of them.

 

It is lame that if you are fighting someone doing a lot of area damage and are a marauder you get creamed not to long into the fight even if you are geared right because all the moves require you being all up in someones face.

 

I love the class and agree that it would be nice to have a push/ pull option with this toon... besides, is that not like a basic force power?

[mrHaterade]

It is lame that if you are fighting someone doing a lot of area damage and are a marauder you get creamed not to long into the fight even if you are geared right because all the moves require you being all up in someones face.

You realize it's a melee class right? Re-roll ranged?

[Avigatorx]

so you very very very wrong impression is that a Jugg who is speced for DPS is still a tank.

 

In the words of Zeoller "A Juggernaut is not a tank class, it is a class with the option of tanking"

 

Its a shame you cannot grasp that idea.

 

one of the things you so ignorantly missed is that the light armor classes all tank better as well. but that is a different issue, the main issue is you are so blinded that you cannot see there is no "tank" class just classes that can tank.

 

/desk /desk /desk

 

That is EXACTLY what I am saying. They have an "option" to tank or dps. Marauders have an "option" to dps, that's it.

 

Maybe we have a different definition of "tanking."

 

My definition is taking direct damage from a mob, whether intended or not (Intentionally or accidently pulling aggro)

 

ANY class can tank a mob to a certain extent, some better than others. I dont care if your in heavy armor or completely naked. You can steal aggro, tank a mob an get one-shotted, but ideally you want someone to tank mobs (in a gorup or raid) that can hold the mobs attention (aggro) and absorb the most amount of damage, while requiring the least amount of healing.

 

The ability to successfully and efficiently "tank" a mob can hinge on 2 main factors (setting aggro aside), avoidance tanking or mitigation tanking. (or a combination of the two.)

 

Tanks are typically the most gear dependant classes in an mmo. Normally, the major roadblock to advancing to higher tiered content in a raiding guild, is getting your main tanks geared sufficiently to withstand the damage output of the boss mob being tanked.

 

Much of the ability to completely avoid taking damage while tanking is built into the class coding and abilities, and the remainder through itemization on gear that boost a tanks avoidance stats.

 

The other aspect is mitigation. Which is the ability to reduce the amount of damage a typical attack will do. The main factor in determining mitigation is armor rating or armor class ratings, the higher the value the more damage will be mitigated from an incoming hit. A mob attack that does 10k damage on a light armor class with 1000 ac might do 7k damage on a heavy armor class with 3000 ac.

 

The higher your ac rating, the more damage you mitigate.

 

Avoidance aside for a moment, strictly talking mitigation, anyone with a higher ac value will mitigate more damage. So regardless of spec, if an equally geared DPS Jugg and any spec Marauder are hit by the same mob, with the same hit, the Jugg will take less damage. There is no way around that other than the devs popping in coding that gives certain classes innate mitigation.

 

Raids, have evolved greatly since Nagafen and Vox raids in EQ. It is no longer simply gear up your main tank, set a CH rotation, and dps the mob down.

 

Now raids are being designed with numerous stages that include aggro wipes, AE abilities damaging the entire raid, adds scripted to join the battle mid fight, etc, etc....

 

In a raid, you typically needed the "trifecta", Tank, healer, DPS. That still holds true, but due to the dynamics involved nowadays, pure tank, pure healer, pure dps, arent always the best options. (Especially now with caps on raid sizes)

 

You need main battle tanks, full-on pure damage absorbing monsters with likely double the number of hps of any other class.

 

You need healers specifically assigned to healing the main tank(s).

 

You need add-tanks, to keep the incoming mobs off the healers.

 

You need secondary healers to keep the add-tanks up.

 

And of course, you need DPS.

 

My point all along has been that the utility of "classes" that either have the ability to change specs, or perform hybrid functions, such as dps+heal, dps+tank, or whatever, "can" (again, it is my concern, not fact), be much more valuable on a raid (especially with limited slots) than a class that can only dps.

 

The only way to justify taking a pure dps on a raid is if their damage throughput is far greater than a hybrid type class.

 

Having classes that "can" tank or heal put out nearly equal dps to a pure dps class is a slap in the face to the pure dps class.

 

As for the light armor classes tanking better than the marauder (medium armor), I don't know what to tell you.

 

I find it hard to believe a light armor dps class (or spec for that matter) can absorb more damage than a medium armor dps class (or spec), unless there is a major discrepancy in gear.

 

Now if you are talking about light armor classes that have the option to "spec" as a tank, then of course. They have abilities that enable them to withstand the attacks, the Marauder does not have that option (and really shouldn't imo.)

 

Something tells me this isn't going to clear things up (if you even bother to read it), maybe some of the other posters can chime in and give me a hand explaining this...

[Avigatorx]

@ Tilure

 

TYVM bro, I started feeling like I was taking crazy pills:)