AnAcuteAngle Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How do you think this would work? It's a very DOT heavy/sustained damage build. Obviously you could use either cylinder, but CGC is more likely so that no points are wasted. The last two points could be put into several skills, not necessarily stuck to ST. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkenheineken Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 There's another thread about this build, but it's not clearly labeled so I don't blame you for missing it. I'm playing that build at level 42 right now, and I'm 100% regretting not being full pyro. I'd much rather have the extra damage on my core rotation rather than trying to sneak in a retractable blade, blowing heat for mediocre damage and no chance to proc particle accelerator. I really hope things change once I grab charged gauntlets, but I have a hunch that it's better to go for the damage spike from particle accelerator procs faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhak Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) 50 PT in full champ/rakata gear reporting. Normally I'm full 31-point Pyro. Get scores like this in WZs sometimes - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/screenshot2012010911075.jpg/ Tested out the hybrid build for the first time last night. Please. Nobody. Go. This. Spec. Somebody saw this combination of the talent calculator and thought it would be cute to try out. It's not. It's terrible. Charged gauntlets almost never happens and when it does, RS crits for far less than it would in Pyrotech because you don't get the 30% crit damage bonus from it by going this crappy hybrid spec, not to mention doing 9% less damage from lack of Rain of Fire. You also don't get the insane burst in PvP you get from landing a RS at the same time TD goes off. This hybrid spec is just horrible and offers neither good burst nor sustained damage. I would love if Bioware made hybrid specs viable. They did not. Edited January 11, 2012 by Mhak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAcuteAngle Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, thanks for giving it a shot Full Pyro is it, then. Seems to be king at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxic Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would love if Bioware made hybrid specs viable. They did not. Well, sorc's go deep madness and then into lightning. Now everyone wants to find the next greatest hybrid crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkenheineken Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) The above post really overstated how bad it is. Charged gauntlets procs around 43% of the time (math is in the other thread) with a rotation of flame burst, retractable blade, rocket punch, rail shot. For reference, the combination of one flame burst and rocket punch only procs particle accelerator ~61% of the time. The build also totes a lot more pvp utility with a 35 sec grapple, 50 sec electro dart, and hydraulic overrides. Getting to a specific target is trivial for this build. The issue is that its burst is really low. Retractable blade doesn't do very much damage at all, even with the DoT, and it eats a GCD that could have been spent trying to proc particle accelerator. The free rocket punch really isn't needed either. It's really not bad, and I've been getting decent damage scores with it in pvp even before getting charged gauntlets, but right now it does seem like full pyro is better for both pve and pvp. Tangential point about hybrids: Tons of hybrid specs are not only usable, but optimal in this game. The 23/18 shadow/assassin build is very common, as is the 21/2/18 build for powertechs. A hybrid of defense and vigilance is arguably the best tank spec atm for guardians/juggernauts. I don't know why people keep claiming hybrids can't work - they can and do, and it's well documented at this point. Edited January 11, 2012 by Valkenheineken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhak Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) The above post really overstated how bad it is. Charged gauntlets procs around 43% of the time (math is in the other thread) with a rotation of flame burst, retractable blade, rocket punch, rail shot. For reference, the combination of one flame burst and rocket punch only procs particle accelerator ~61% of the time. Yes, that's called high school statistics, and what that tells you is that more often than not your rotations will not benefit from a charged gauntlet auto-crit proc. And when it does happen, the damage is unimpressive due to not receiving the 30% higher crit damage from deep Pyrotech. The build also totes a lot more pvp utility with a 35 sec grapple, 50 sec electro dart, and hydraulic overrides. Getting to a specific target is trivial for this build. Yes, that is the intent of AP - utility in PvP. Unfortunately - due to terrible design which will hopefully be addressed in the future - it requires sacrificing massive amounts of damage for such meager utility. In turn, Pyrotech has utility of it's own which is intended for PvP. It's really not bad, and I've been getting decent damage scores with it in pvp even before getting charged gauntlets, but right now it does seem like full pyro is better for both pve and pvp. Well sir opinions stop at this point and facts enter the fray; you are empirically wrong. The sustained damage is far less due to a majority of your most-used abilities receiving 9-13% less damage (depending on whether they are fire effects or not) and 30% less critical damage. The burst damage is FAR less due to a lack of hard-hitting RSs and TD. I've used full AP, this Hybrid spec, and Pyrotech, AP and Pyrotech of which I have both tested in EV. This Hybrid spec offers the slightest of noticeable increases in sustained damage from AP - which is horrendous when compared to Pyrotech to being with. Add on top of that a severe lack of burst - as you said - and this spec is completely useless when compared to full Pyrotech with the noticable exception being Hydrolic Overrides. The people willing to sacrifice 30%-50% damage from a full Pyrotech build for that single useful talent are few and far between. tl;dr - I did not overstate how bad this spec was at all - you are overstating it's usefulness, likely because you haven't the level/gear to test all your options out yet. I have, and did. This spec is not good and if there were damage meters it would be easy to demonstrate this fact. Edited January 11, 2012 by Mhak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkenheineken Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, that's called high school statistics, and what that tells you is that more often than not your rotations will not benefit from a charged gauntlet auto-crit proc. It's quite a bit higher than "not very often," and the proc rate can be increased if you want to throw extra flame bursts in there. Your statement was misleading, and having a real number to look at is much more helpful. And when it does happen, the damage is unimpressive due to not receiving the 30% higher crit damage from deep Pyrotech. You want some high school math? Increasing the chance to do 50% more damage by 43% adds much more dps than simply increasing the crit damage multiplier by .3. Charged gauntlets unquestionably adds more dps than firebug. Yes, that is the intent of AP - utility in PvP. Unfortunately - due to terrible design which will hopefully be addressed in the future - it requires sacrificing massive amounts of damage for such meager utility. In turn, Pyrotech has utility of it's own which is intended for PvP. You're not losing anything from the lower end of pyrotech, and the top end of pyrotech doesn't have a ton of pvp utility. Further, other players have posted on this forum that the damage lost by not investing past particle accelerator is not only not "massive," but actually minimal. Well sir opinions stop at this point and facts enter the fray; you are empirically wrong. The sustained damage is far less due to a majority of your most-used abilities receiving 9-13% less damage (depending on whether they are fire effects or not) and 30% less critical damage. The burst damage is FAR less due to a lack of hard-hitting RSs and TD. This is just silly. For starters, something isn't bad just because another build is better. Even assuming that's the case, your assessment assumes only the loss of the pyrotech talents without at all accounting for the benefits gained in the AP tree. Of course you're going to think something's bad when you just write off points like that. The only "empirical" part of that paragraph-long nonsense was the 30% loss on rail shot crits, which as mentioned above actually gives you LESS damage than increasing your crit rate by 43%. snipped blather Yeah, you testing this for a day doesn't show anything. I'm not saying it's the best spec in the world, but it's not even close to as bad as you say. You're ignoring tons of added utility such as quicker grapple, extra defense/crit rate, etc. Your overreaction is gross. Your post and the math speaks for itself. You're not contributing anything to the conversation, and consequently you will be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAcuteAngle Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes. Pyro. I'm feelin the 4/6/31 build, unless someone comes up with something like 8/3/30, but I'd say TD > ED in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainsawsamurai Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'd say TD > ED in PvP. By a lot. I also feel that the Grapple and Electro Dart cooldown reduction is grossly overrated. Grapple is atrocious. It doesn't work on targets with resolve up and even on valid targets it randomly breaks or yanks a target somewhere random all the time. I don't know if it is lag, shoddy code, or a combination of the two but Grapple infuriates me more often than it pleases me. Electro Dart is nice, but with 2 stuns on relatively short cooldowns I rarely find myself wanting for more. I can barely use the stuns I do have in a group PvP situation due to the resolve system. Bugs aside, the Resolve system really diminishes the value of any talent points put into these abilities during practical play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grymlin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not to derail this convo but Im seeing the Grapple hatred a lot lately. Are vanguards experiencing the same issues with their mirror ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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