Assassin VS Operative?

[Mycrof]

Operatives deal alot of damage. And if that was the only necessary prerequisite to put together a great PvP team, then perhaps there would be no need for Assassins. That is not the case, however.

 

Assassins are chalk full of utility that Operatives simply do not possess. An AoE knockback (Operatives don't get any knockbacks), a 30 meter stun, a ranged snare which can be kept up 100% of the time, Force Speed to close gaps and increase mobility, Force Pull if specced correctly, and others.

 

The Operative is a damage dealer and healer, but receives little in the way of gap closers and overall utility. By contrast, a properly played Assassin is impossible to kite, and of course has a tank flavor instead of healing. Once the initial burst damage is done by both classes, the Operative can be kited by good players, but the Assassin can never truly be kited. Both provide their own flavor of group utility, one in the form of CC and Guard, the other in the form of heals.

 

Now, I believe that if they plan to leave the Operative's burst potential as high as it is, then perhaps a small buff to the Assassin's own burst potential is in order. But I also think that would be a mistake on BioWare's part. For literally years, BioWare was promising us longer PvP fights than most mainstream MMOs, where one class could not kill another in a matter of seconds. The Operative is the epitome of their failure in this regard, as the burst potential of this class is almost enough to outright kill a squishier class before the Op's initial stun wears off (taken to extreme levels due to many stackable consumable buffs.)

 

I believe the entire system needs adjusting, lowering the damage dealt by most classes across the board (as I said earlier, this may have a lot to do with consumable buffs) and also looking at how mitigation/avoidance/shielding works (currently, most damage types bypass many defensive stats, making those stats next to useless in PvP) to help increase the survivability of various different classes. It will be no small or easy task for BioWare to fix their PvP, as healing will likely also need to be adjusted, once some of the other issues with consumable buffs and mitigation stats are addressed.

 

-Macheath.

 

You're mixing specs. Different specs of shadow play differently. Only tanks have a target pull, only infiltrators can keep a target snared for 12 seconds every 12 seconds, and kiting an infiltrator is pretty doable if you have any snares, knock backs or stuns of your own. It's pretty frustrating. The highest crit I got when played infiltration was 3.4k on a project. I though that was awesome I until I saw that many other class hit just as hard or harder with less setup, less gear, and less randomly. There are a lot of "huh??" moments in all the shadow/assassin trees that just don't work super well. If you want to play a stealth class in pvp, I'd go with ops hands down.

[Astarica]

Unbreakable will > forceshroud > deflection

 

So you're one of those guys that goes around thinking you'll get jumped by an Operative every 3 steps so that you've this burnt into your reflex the moment you hear anyone come out of stealth? What if it's not an Operative, you still going to hit those 3 buttons and waste your two biggest cooldown on something that's relatively harmless?

 

Not to mention your sequence of events make no sense because Force Shroud is either 100% or nothing, so using a second defensive cooldown on top of that is absolutely meaningelss. Either Force Shroud stops it completely, or it doesn't work at all.

 

As long as we're theory crafting the most effective way to counter it is actually something like Unbreakable Will -> Overload/Lacerate (if Overload not up). This will knock them away which means they cannot backstab, and if they stealth this will break their stealth, and either way they'd not be in position to do anything useful.

[Fendril_Tharkun]

Having Played both classes myslef i agree, that the operative has more burst while the assassins survivability and utility is much better. From my point of view the dps otput of an asassin is still too low and could use an upgrade. This holds true especially if looking at ranged dd and their immense DPS Bursts.

So for my 5 cent, increase assassins dps a bit, decrease ranged dps alot!

 

Regards

[Thorzz]

So you're one of those guys that goes around thinking you'll get jumped by an Operative every 3 steps so that you've this burnt into your reflex the moment you hear anyone come out of stealth? What if it's not an Operative, you still going to hit those 3 buttons and waste your two biggest cooldown on something that's relatively harmless?

 

Not to mention your sequence of events make no sense because Force Shroud is either 100% or nothing, so using a second defensive cooldown on top of that is absolutely meaningelss. Either Force Shroud stops it completely, or it doesn't work at all.

 

As long as we're theory crafting the most effective way to counter it is actually something like Unbreakable Will -> Overload/Lacerate (if Overload not up). This will knock them away which means they cannot backstab, and if they stealth this will break their stealth, and either way they'd not be in position to do anything useful.

 

Im one of those people that dont whine about classes and balance, i've been battlemaster for a while now on my assassin while it doesnt mean anything because it's just a time consuming process and rng on the actual gear, it has put me in a allot of fights 1v1 with most classes, and yes the way your saying is valid, but most operatives are expecting people to break their first stun so they are mashing their 2nd stun button right afterwards most of the time, forceshroud removes their poison, prevents a 2nd stun (if they try to do it).

 

If we we're theorycrafting in the most effective way to screw them over it would be enabling lightning charge and discharge them as soon as the fight begins the dot screws their vanish over, another way is to vanish then spike them quickly, there's several ways to counter most of the classes im just posting the one that was most effective for me. and no i dont blow all my defensive cooldowns in a row.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Thorzz

[JediDuckling]

why are you trying to compare operatives/scoundrels to shadow's/assasins ?

 

 

for starters scoundrels and operatives are rediculously OP

 

were as assasins/shadows are pretty gimped in the terms of if you go full dps your squishy as hell and lack the dps for it.

 

assasins and shadows need a little buff

[Rizzit]

So you're one of those guys that goes around thinking you'll get jumped by an Operative every 3 steps so that you've this burnt into your reflex the moment you hear anyone come out of stealth?

 

I am, you should be aswell if you want to be considered Top Player.

If you aint colorblind you should be able to react with Force Shroud

b4 they open. period.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rizzit

[zqsd]

First off. I play a level 50 Operative. I hate pvp in every game except this one. Just getting that out of the way.

 

Not true. While an Operative does have high burst, if the target is not poisoned, my damage has dropped to nothing. I can't proc multiple lacerates in a row without poison. Operatives rely on the poison to keep up the damage. We run short on energy easily too. I've had some assassin's hit me for 3-4k 4-5 times in a row no problem. How is that any different from my 4k hidden strike, then 2k, 2k, 2k lacerate/backstab/shiv ? Oh wait. I knock you on your ***. IMO the stun on EVERYTHING in this game needs to be lowered.

 

- Operative has medium armor, assassin has light armor.

 

 

Only some. Most debuffs such as Socr's lightning **** and dots, we cannot. I don't know how many times I've ran away from a sorc trying to debuff myself only to die anyways.

 

 

You must be joking. The heal costs 25 energy. We have 100. Energy regenerates extremely slow. If I go into a fight to kill someone, I spend that energy. If I have to run away, its a good 20-30 seconds before I have the energy to cast that heal 5-8 times (which is what it takes to heal myself to full FYI). I usually wait to get out of combat to use the normal regen thing. And yes, they are crap heals. 1500ish in our dps spec with a 3-4 second cast time.

 

 

Only if talented. Though any smart Operative would get it. Again this is where people need to think. If you don't want someone to vanish out put a dot on them.

 

 

 

And no. Operatives don't have better survivability and better burst. I'd say its pretty even, depending on who gets the jump on who. Isn't that the point of stealth?

 

You know I just realized I don't care. When Diablo 3 comes out this game is history for me.

 

 

But I hope I did help shed some light on things.

 

Edit : Also wanted to add Operatives get zero knockbacks, sprints, leaps, ect. We have stealth and vanish. Take away our burst and you have to give us something.

 

 

 

I'll pass on your complaint on poison, i don't see the problem here it's a class mechanic which allows you to do unrivalized burst, i wish i could poison my targets to do the same.

 

I'll also pass on yout "i can only dispell SOME debuff :(' while, again, assassin can not dispell AT ALL. I think this does not even deserve more arguing...

 

 

 

The heal costs 25 energy. We have 100. Energy regenerates extremely slow. If I go into a fight to kill someone, I spend that energy. If I have to run away, its a good 20-30 seconds before I have the energy to cast that heal 5-8 times (which is what it takes to heal myself to full FYI). I usually wait to get out of combat to use the normal regen thing. And yes, they are crap heals. 1500ish in our dps spec with a 3-4 second cast time.

 

But while i can see how people playing operative are flat ignorant because, of course, you don't need to know how other classes work when you just have to faceroll to put them down, i just can't understand you don't understand your own class mechanics...

 

Energy generates at the speed of 10/s; getting out of fight to regen behind a wall and with 100 energy you can cast 4 heals for 1k5-2k / heal.

 

Then go back to battle.

 

This means you can regen 8k hp while the assassin... do you know what assassin can do to regen? He has to WAIT to go out of combat, he has to WAIT for dots to fade off AND, finally, he can regen himself.

So, please, don't try to argue your heals or dispells are worthless because they are certainly not, the only reason you think they are is because you have never played something else and because you have absolutely no clue about class balance.

Edited January 11, 2012 by zqsd

[Kursyu]

Played both at 50 in just about full PvP gear.

 

The Concealment Op has WAY more burst than a Deception Sin.

 

The ONLY thing i can think of that might be an advantage to Sin in PvP is having a tanking tree to put some points into to get that extra defense.

 

I'm not going to flood the forum with anymore NERF OPerative threads, but it needs to be toned down, or Sin needs some type of hotfix to get better, or even remotely closer to Operative.

[xBuzz]

I'm a pvp tank with 21.5k hp, battlemaster gear etc and I can tell you that assassins do way less burst than operatives. Infact compared to operatives, assassins don't have any burst at all. An assassin opening me, might do 10-20% hp before I can react, an operative can do up to 50% hp, and with my stats, thats huge. They would kill 90% of other level 50s. Edited January 11, 2012 by xBuzz

[Rambuster]

Energy generates at the speed of 10/s; getting out of fight to regen behind a wall and with 100 energy you can cast 4 heals for 1k5-2k / heal.

 

Actually no, an operative's energy regen starts at 5 per sec, and goes down as we use more energy, where as an assassin always has the same 8 force regen a second. operatives have stim boost to increase there energy regen up to 6 per second, and as a concealment spec it goes up to 6.5 per second, where an assassin can spec into talents to give them an additional 30% regen in the tanking tree, which ould be 10.4 force per second, and could spec into the deception tree for a 50% force regen speed while in stealth and 6 seconds afterwords, also to have blackout talented to give you the same buff for 6 seconds while granting you 10 force.

 

So with that said, an operative has slower energy regen the lower he/she is in energy. and the assassin's doesnt not change, always the same regardless.

 

I'm a pvp tank with 21.5k hp, battlemaster gear etc and I can tell you that assassins do way less burst than operatives. Infact compared to operatives, assassins don't have any burst at all. An assassin opening me, might do 10-20% hp before I can react, an operative can do up to 50% hp, and with my stats, thats huge. They would kill 90% of other level 50s.

 

Thats your proplem, your a tank spec. your not ment to do alot of dps, more threat gen and survivablity.

 

Thats like saying im a medic spec operative and deception assassins do too much damage compaire to my own

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rambuster

[zqsd]

Actually no, an operative's energy regen starts at 5 per sec, and goes down as we use more energy, where as an assassin always has the same 8 force regen a second. operatives have stim boost to increase there energy regen up to 6 per second, and as a concealment spec it goes up to 6.5 per second, where an assassin can spec into talents to give them an additional 30% regen in the tanking tree, which ould be 10.4 force per second, and could spec into the deception tree for a 50% force regen speed while in stealth and 6 seconds afterwords, also to have blackout talented to give you the same buff for 6 seconds while granting you 10 force.

 

So with that said, an operative has slower energy regen the lower he/she is in energy. and the assassin's doesnt not change, always the same regardless.

 

 

 

Thats your proplem, your a tank spec. your not ment to do alot of dps, more threat gen and survivablity.

 

Thats like saying im a medic spec operative and deception assassins do too much damage compaire to my own

 

I admit but this doesent change the fact that "a bit of heal" is better than "no heal at all".

[xBuzz]

Thats your proplem, your a tank spec. your not ment to do alot of dps, more threat gen and survivablity.

 

Thats like saying im a medic spec operative and deception assassins do too much damage compaire to my own

 

Eh, where did I complain about my damage? This has nothing to do with "my" damage. This is my observations through hundreds of warzones that I did to reach battlemaster.

 

I've fought EVERY class, hundreds of times, had them all open on me. I've fought them with my trinket up, on cooldown, defensives up, on cooldown and in my opinion operative/scoundrel damage is way over the top.

 

I'm a pvp tank with nearly the best gear ingame, totally geared for tanking and I can tell you that I don't go down fast to any class, other than operative/scoundrel.

 

An Assassin/shadow opens me, I lose maybe 10-20% hitpoints, an operative/scoundrel opens me, I lose at least 50% hitpoints. Which would mean that most other non tanking classes/specs would be dead, or near dead.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention, i'm not an assassin tank, like you probably assumed. I'm a vanguard tank, so i'm not biased towards any class.

Edited January 11, 2012 by xBuzz

[flooble]

I don't think you can dodge/parry if you're stunned. I have popped Saber Ward before gettign stunned and it sure doesn't look like I'm parrying anything. It'd make sense from a logical point of view that you're not deflecting anything when you don't even have control of your body.

 

If Saber Ward works while stunned (better yet usable while stunned) there will be a rather easy to deal with the Operative burst, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

 

 

 

I thought it was because most op burst is tech damage which sails through almost all mitigation anyway?

 

Caveat: I may be wrong, it's just sounding familiar

[-Makaz-]

100% agree with the OP.

 

The class difference doesn't really matter when facing hoards of casuals clicking on their action bar with just sprint & buff bind - in this case, well played sin and ops are going to both thrash the place - ops destroys you on the spot whilst the sin kills you as you are uselessly trying to escape showing your back.

 

 

 

Now when you want to play a more competitive PVP, this is another story.

 

So yes as a deception Sin I can get pretty decent burst. (Discharge, Maul, Assassinate up to, 4,600, shocks around 3,500 with voltaics critting at 2x1000). I do not have ultimate stuff (yes yes I am openning bags since 17/12 and still haven't received anything better than a centurion double bladed saber) however I'd say it is >98% of my server. 18K hp, 10% pvp buff, 100% melee accuracy, rakata medpacks & stims etc... I could probably get the 5K damage medal one day if I would just get that double bladed saber and a bit of luck but this would be pushing it.

 

So yes, that's all awesome and my deception sin rocks and all... but this is only true until I face an equivalent stuffed well played healer, a 20K hp+ tank or a guarded target with decent stuff. In these cases - the burst is just not enough - even assuming you jolt, low slash, bump or electrocute to interrupt everything the guys is doing - you at best turn out to be a major annoyance but you will never kill the guy fast before he can should for his friends to come back from anywhere on the map and get rid of you or force you to vanish.

 

Now at equivalent stuff, this cannot be said of the operative who can steam roll you in a matter of seconds and I am sorry in a competitive pvp environment, when you can choose between a class who can kill the ennemy healer and a class that will endanger and partly neutralise him... the choice is obvious.

 

Ops is currently underplayed (specially compared to sins) so it is not "so much" an issue. However I regret everyday that I didn't roll ops - seeing the burst of not so well stuff ops being better that my painfully aquired and meticulously optimised stuff is disappointing and I can only dream at the moment of filling the role of predator I wanted to play if only I had made a better class choice.

 

 

 

Now nerf or not nerf ? up sin or not up sin ? That is the question. I would like to remind you that BW never claimed that SWTOR would be pvp oriented. Daily pvp quests are the pure representation of this - thou shall not do more than 3 pvp instances a day - thou shall go to illium to try out all the existing emoticons from the back of your speeder while waiting a tag and re-tag of points - thou shall rage at seing rank 12 people carrying purple sabres while you are a battlemaster carrying a red crystal.

 

SWTOR is not designed for endgame high lvl pvp. Nerfing ops would risk reducing even more their population - Upping DPS sins would risk increasing even more the population of inquisitors. I doubt this is how the devs want the game to be played. It is all about motivating you to reroll and explore new stories after all - don't look farther than that - just another fail MMO

 

 

Can we have DAOC 2 now ?

[pedley]

There will never be a DAOC2 .

 

Can you imagine all the people moaning from caster / melee trains, been interrupted by any damage and been rolled by high RR players.

 

No developer will ever make that game because there is a limited audience for it. Personally is love it.

 

Hib zerg @ AMG!

[cloudxshadowbane]

Well sure, if you ignore all cooldowns and the team is afk, that might work.

 

 

PS: Assassins have stealth too

 

 

 

Edit: It's still MORE than a 1v1 game.

 

You and EVERYONE else who try and make an excuse that " it is not a 1v1 game" , or " the game was not built around 1v1" just makes yourselves look more stupid everytime you post.

 

If a class is dominantly overpowered in 1v1, it WILL 100%, be just as dominantly overpowered say having a FULL group of ops/scounds vs a mixed group.

They all focus man to man on each target of the mixed group. Everything dies in 3-4 seconds, other than maybe a Powertech which are second in the overpowered list. But even then, they win. Same thing if they gang on targets.

 

 

You HAVE to start balance around 1v1, because that ensures your class has the TOOLs to actually be considered a COMPLETED and POLISHED class vs any other class, with EQUAL playing ground. Than you balance around group by adding utilities, some more to others, that benefit group combat and could make the difference in say a 11 vs 12 situation, or have it come down to skill in a 12 vs 12 situation.... not the composition of how many OP classes you have.

[Enveryn]

I am Jedi Shadow, I have my AoE taunt and guard even in my infiltration build, gg I am fine!

 

PS Operative/scoundrel opener is a bit too strong still... just opener!

[Pullataikina]

Jesus... People should just quit posting these.

 

Half of the stuff said in this thread made me lol and facepalm simultaneously. I mean cmon... Not even all the ppl posting clearly arent playing either assa/shadow or op/sc. If they are then they are low valor rank or low lvls since they dont even know what abilities do and how they actually work before posting.

[Maxxacre]

OP is right, and several people here have brought up valid points. The Assassin/Shadow is currently a pointless class to play in Deception/Infiltration, or even Balance spec. The only thing they can do better than the Operative/Scoundrel is tank, and that's simply because they have a tank tree while the Op/Scoundrel does not....

 

As a stealthy burst class, I don't think it's necessarily that the Assassin/Shadow fails completely by mechanics, it's simply overshadowed by the Operative/Scoundrel, which does too much. It's not that the Assassin does too little IMO, it's that the Operative does too much, to sum it up.

 

Because really, no class should be able to do what Operatives are doing right now in PvP. Of course people will scoff at that statement, especially if they play Operative/Scoundrel... but again, being able to burst someone down while keeping them CC'd is inherently OP. You need to be able to counter a class by skill, and if you are CC'd the entire time, you can't use any abilities to counter. Surviving an Operative often requires you to have your CC break and trickets up. If an Assassin opens on you with a knockdown, then blows his 4 second stun on you, there's no way he's going to be able to burst you down in that amount of time like an Operative can. That's the way it actually should be... but because there's currently a similar class in the game that CAN burst you down like that, it seems that the Assassin is underpowered/gimped.

 

In reality, the Assassin is pretty balanced as a class, if you look at it on its own merits. But when you see an Operative/Scoundrel, then it's true... what's the point of an Assassin? Right now, there is none... unless you are tank spec. They need to tone down Operatives to the level of Assassins in terms of burst and CC. People might say that's unfair because Operatives don't have an AOE knockback and a speed boost that's as good as the Assassin... but they can also heal themselves. If you toned down the burst of the Operative/Scoundrel and toned down their CC as well, it would be a "hard" nerf for them... and yet it would bring them to balance, not make them useless. It would make them Assassins basically....

[pedley]

You and EVERYONE else who try and make an excuse that " it is not a 1v1 game" , or " the game was not built around 1v1" just makes yourselves look more stupid everytime you post.

 

If a class is dominantly overpowered in 1v1, it WILL 100%, be just as dominantly overpowered say having a FULL group of ops/scounds vs a mixed group.

They all focus man to man on each target of the mixed group. Everything dies in 3-4 seconds, other than maybe a Powertech which are second in the overpowered list. But even then, they win. Same thing if they gang on targets.

 

 

You HAVE to start balance around 1v1, because that ensures your class has the TOOLs to actually be considered a COMPLETED and POLISHED class vs any other class, with EQUAL playing ground. Than you balance around group by adding utilities, some more to others, that benefit group combat and could make the difference in say a 11 vs 12 situation, or have it come down to skill in a 12 vs 12 situation.... not the composition of how many OP classes you have.

 

sorry but LOL.

[cloudxshadowbane]

sorry but LOL.

50 Operative - Elysa Stonerose

 

 

/Bold

=Fail kiddie

[Spigotwelder]

here's a hot tip when two roguelikes go at it the one that gets the opener is usually at a big advantage

 

/!\ don't tell /!\

 

don't forget to use blackout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(it's v. good)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VonSoot]

Cool a bursty OP complaining about another bursty OP.

 

 

I've been crit by Operatives and Assassins for 5k+ quite regularly.

I've seen high end spec Assassins 2 shot people with consumables (Jim on Death Wind Corridor comes to mind).

 

Anyways, play what you enjoy.

 

If you want a competive MMO game, stop playing MMORPGs... play an FPS or RTS where PvP is central.

Edited January 11, 2012 by VonSoot

[Spigotwelder]

yeah, fail kiddie republican m8s!!! your moms bought u this game!!! dont u have skool fale kid scrubzzz!!!!! xDDDD play a real class epic loserz

[flooble]

You and EVERYONE else who try and make an excuse that " it is not a 1v1 game" , or " the game was not built around 1v1" just makes yourselves look more stupid everytime you post.

 

If a class is dominantly overpowered in 1v1, it WILL 100%, be just as dominantly overpowered say having a FULL group of ops/scounds vs a mixed group.

They all focus man to man on each target of the mixed group. Everything dies in 3-4 seconds, other than maybe a Powertech which are second in the overpowered list. But even then, they win. Same thing if they gang on targets.

 

 

You HAVE to start balance around 1v1, because that ensures your class has the TOOLs to actually be considered a COMPLETED and POLISHED class vs any other class, with EQUAL playing ground. Than you balance around group by adding utilities, some more to others, that benefit group combat and could make the difference in say a 11 vs 12 situation, or have it come down to skill in a 12 vs 12 situation.... not the composition of how many OP classes you have.

 

 

 

Right. I see. ...nope...mustn't.....laugh.....can't...stop.......Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

 

Oh man, that's the best laugh I've had all day.

 

 

 

Go read about emergence.