Soft n Hard caps

[BelligerentBob]

Since I started playing SW:TOR people have been telling me to get my crit percentage to 30% and then to stack as much Power as possible. Just recently though, I found this thread which states that power increases healing by 0.17 for every point invested.

 

If that is true then does the following example hold true?

 

 

 

Lets say that my Medical Probe normally heals for 1,000, 1,500 crits. I stumble upon new gear and have now added 300 power to my character. So my heals should now be hitting for 1,051 (300*0.17=51) and critting for 1,576.5 (1,051*1.50). That means that my addition of 300 power increased the value of my criticals by 7.65%.

 

Now if I were to swap out 100 power for 100 surge leaving me at 200 power (+34) and 100 surge (60% crits) I should expect my MP to heal for 1,034 and crit for 1,654.4 (1,034*1.60) which is effectively a 15.45% increase to the value of my criticals.

 

 

Am I correct or am I simply just another idiot who should retake high school algebra?

[Hxxr]

Theorycrafting really should be backed up with empirical data and sources. You can't just throw around numbers you heard somewhere and treat it like it's true.

 

Tuskake's post is a nice read and it looks well researched but again the source of the data is unknown an thus useless. Wich is a shame as someone put quite some work into those numbers.

Of course I can see how some portion of it was testet, but claims as to how e.g. 3000 crit rating scale when taking dimishing returns into account are worthless without revealing the method of how the test was done.

 

It would be different if you'd say "my gut tells me to keep power and surge in the same hundreds and surge close to 80%" - because that would make it an opinion wich does not need proof, not a fact.

 

ps: I still agree on most of the findings - excluding nonesense about hard caps and 100 surge being a plateau for anything as it's simply not coherent with what I see ingame. And easy to test as well.

 

 

---

 

If that is true then does the following example hold true?

 

Your calculation seems to hold up, but is the 0.17 coefficient correct? It seems very low, but I don't heal and can't log in.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Hxxr

[Yazule]

Theorycrafting really should be backed up with empirical data and sources. You can't just throw around numbers you heard somewhere and treat it like it's true.

 

Tuskake's post is a nice read and it looks well researched but again the source of the data is unknown an thus useless. Wich is a shame as someone put quite some work into those numbers.

Of course I can see how some portion of it was testet, but claims as to how e.g. 3000 crit rating scale when taking dimishing returns into account are worthless without revealing the method of how the test was done.

 

It would be different if you'd say "my gut tells me to keep power and surge in the same hundreds and surge close to 80%" - because that would make it an opinion wich does not need proof, not a fact.

 

ps: I still agree on most of the findings - excluding nonesense about hard caps and 100 surge being a plateau for anything as it's simply not coherent with what I see ingame. And easy to test as well.

 

 

---

 

 

 

Your calculation seems to hold up, but is the 0.17 coefficient correct? It seems very low, but I don't heal and can't log in.

 

I had this conundrum with the hard caps too until I realized that the caps are based on surge alone ... any "bonus" gets added to the top without diminishing returns on the back end.

 

For me it has been crit, both spec and agent buff add directly to % and seem to be added AFTER crit stat bonus, so if I can get 30% crit from stats, +5% crit from agent buff i go to 35% straight up with no diminish on the return.

 

i can't think of any crit multiplier "bonus %" but for crit you definitely need to take into account the bonus number added to the end after diminishing returns.

[Hxxr]

I agree - as Pyrotech you spec 12% tech crit and get 5% from an agent's buff and it is always fully added to your crit chance, above and below 50%.

 

The 15% from the set are impossible to check out at this time without wasting too many hours for a significant sample.

[Yazule]

Since I started playing SW:TOR people have been telling me to get my crit percentage to 30% and then to stack as much Power as possible. Just recently though, I found this thread which states that power increases healing by 0.17 for every point invested.

 

If that is true then does the following example hold true?

 

 

 

Lets say that my Medical Probe normally heals for 1,000, 1,500 crits. I stumble upon new gear and have now added 300 power to my character. So my heals should now be hitting for 1,051 (300*0.17=51) and critting for 1,576.5 (1,051*1.50). That means that my addition of 300 power increased the value of my criticals by 7.65%.

 

Now if I were to swap out 100 power for 100 surge leaving me at 200 power (+34) and 100 surge (60% crits) I should expect my MP to heal for 1,034 and crit for 1,654.4 (1,034*1.60) which is effectively a 15.45% increase to the value of my criticals.

 

 

Am I correct or am I simply just another idiot who should retake high school algebra?

 

if you mouse over bonus damage there is some comment about a multiplier based on what attack is being used...

 

 

this vauge reference has not numerical backup anywhere i have seen. If the muiltiplier is >2.5 then we are all smoking the good stuff and power > crit/surge in all cases, if it is less <2.5 then common theorycrafting (crit to 30-35% and surge to 80-85% then stack power) is correct.

 

disclaimer - napkin calculations, see sig for more of my opinion on that.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Yazule

[Rakunvar]

Going to copy paste my other post I made abit ago cause I don't want to re-write it but I hope it helps and it may have been already said..

 

Most people tend to missuse the words "Soft cap and Hard cap" nowadays..

 

There is no soft cap or hard cap to "most" stats aside from like acc. being that endgame bosses are 110% acc. (This is also being tested to possibly only be 8% fyi.) Its very hard to determine which atm without combat logs as it takes a very, very long time and amount of hits on the same mob to confirm.

 

Stats such as Crit and Surge have "DIMINISHING RETURNS" as well as I do "think" alacrity and expertise does as well, although I do not look into those 2 stats much currently so dont quote me on those two.

 

Soft cap=After certain level of something the benefit drops to a point where you only slightly benefit from the stat. which usually leads to other stats being focused on.

 

Hard cap=After certain level of something the benefit completely halts and you no longer receive any benefit from it.

 

Diminishing returns= After multiple levels of a stat the benefit keeps "diminishing" the more you receive of that stat. usually resulting in switching focus to another stat that has more "weight" to it or value till they balance out.

 

When people are mentioning the 30-35% crit range, and 80-85% surge range they usually say soft cap, when really its not entirely. This is just the range where it becomes more beneficial to start stacking a different stat vs the same one as its currently diminished in value vs the different stat. When you balance out one stat the others start to become abit more valuable again. People are currently working on accurate calculations and bugs in a spreadsheet to help with this. Meaning don't just stack crit and surge to that mark and never look at it again. Its best to keep reading info on stat weights and such till everyone figures out more information.

 

Power on the other hand doesn't cap or have diminishing returns on it as it seems currently. Now does this mean you should only stack power? No.. Arsenal especially leans a lot on criting to vent heat etc.

 

Sithwarrior.com is a good reference site to look thru for information and calculations if you would like proof of all this. Also, if you wish to see on your own its quite easy to take all your gear off, write down your crit/surge and use a relic and write down %. Then put only like 50-100 crit surge worth of gear on and use the same relic and note the difference the relic gave you before and after.

 

Hope that helps someone..

 

p.s. Just remembered I wanted to add something else about acc... Everything other then your Rapid shots (the non-heat, lvl 1 ability you get) is a "Special attack" This means that YES unload and Rail shot are NOT based on tech accuracy, but on Special attack accuracy and both are subject to the mobs defense. (Note that both special attack acc. % and tech attack accuracy are the same atm though) Now tech. attacks are subject to the mobs resistance.

 

Tip is to look @ champion PVP gear for mods as they are easy to obtain.

 

 

This one was a reply post to another user about Soft Caps and Diminishing Returns difference. Although, it may have more info that may help someone. Hopefully it makes sense.

 

Although, a soft cap can really be any range that they chose and while diminish"ed" return/benefit of that stat is happening it usually doesn't keep scaling like actual diminish"ing" returns does.

 

In your explanation it does basically do that but it usually just straight out has 2 levels of capping. Where it drops to the 45ish range and where you completely gain nothing from it. Up until you hit a soft cap, you will get the full benefit from w/e stat your stacking. Meaning there's usually no lessened value/diminishing value in between the two levels.

 

Defense rating in wow was a good example of this, although atm I am overly tired and cannot recall if Accuracy behaves in the same way as it..

 

A few quick links, and the wow one has an example as well.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cap

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Diminishing_returns

 

Not even sure someone wrote it on swtors wiki yet honestly.

 

GO TO SITHWARRIOR.COM FORUMS! This place has a TON of calculations, theorycrafting, and even some spreadsheets!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Rakunvar

[Rakunvar]

Bumping just because I don't want to see another soft/hard cap thread so soon lol.

[BCass]

really informative posts in this thread.

[Yazule]

fyi

 

please do not post wowiki ... wow's definitions are not "global" definitions

 

wow sucks imo tbh fact

[Tihor]

Very useful thres - thx

[PaintOnASign]

fyi

 

please do not post wowiki ... wow's definitions are not "global" definitions

 

wow sucks imo tbh fact

 

lol? how does WoW redefine caps and DR?

[zeroskaterMHS]

Since no one has pointed this out yet the cap on Surge's effect on crit percent has dropped to from 50% to 30% with 1.1.4 I believe.

 

The formula for Surge is:

Crit Percent=50+30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((Surge/MAX(50,20))/0.11))

 

Now we can do some algebra and what not to solve for Surge Rating:

Surge=ln(1-(Crit Percent)/30)/(-0.00616392)

 

Now, analytically you can never reach the cap because ln(1-1)=-inf, however, the game rounds to rounds/truncates at a certain point. Let's assume it rounds on the third decimal...to reach the Surge cap (29.995%) you would need:

 

ln(1-(29.995/30))/(-.00616392)=1411.36 Surge Rating, which would put you at 80% Crit Percent.

 

Now for Crit, one must acknowledge that the bonus granted by Main Stat (Aim), Secondary Stat (Cunning), and Crit Rating stack and all cap at 30%.

 

The formula for Crit Rating is 30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((CritRating/50)/0.45)), which can be solved:

 

Crit Rating=ln(1-(CritChance/30))/(-0.00150674)

To reach cap (29.995%) you would need 5773.73 Crit Rating.

 

The formula for Crit chance from Aim & Cunning is 30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((Stat/50)/2.5)), which solving for Stat:

 

Stat=ln(1-(CritChance/30))/(-.000271212)

 

To reach the 30% cap from Aim/Cunning you would need 32076.44 Aim/Cunning.

 

Alacrity also caps at 30% and the formula is 30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((Alacrity/ 50)/0.55).

 

AlacrityRating=ln(1-(ActivationSpeed/30))/(-0.00123278)

 

And you would need 7056.83 to hit the Alacrity Rating cap.

 

I think that's enough math for now and if you want to know how much rating you need to reach a certain % you can use the above formulas.

[Yazule]

lol? how does WoW redefine caps and DR?

 

 

wowwiki is a wow site, wow sucks and i find wow theorycrafting sucky, it is like trying to pick appart how to make the perfect mcdonald's happy meal, even once you have perfected the art... its still just mcdonald's food

 

soft cap is a relative term

 

hard cap is a point you cannot exceed

 

as for the update on surge, thx, was hoping somone was going to put an update in this thread, i am too lazy.

[Jurgen-Ferik]

Can somebody talk about actual numbers in game instead of theory?

 

If you have full champion what do you need to replace?

 

Pull out the accuracy heavy mods and replace with crit and surge?

[Yazule]

Can somebody talk about actual numbers in game instead of theory?

 

If you have full champion what do you need to replace?

 

Pull out the accuracy heavy mods and replace with crit and surge?

 

 

no combat logs bro, and it is situational

 

if you want to drop tanks you stack that accuracy as much as possible, otherwise dump it off for crit or power (only take surge as it comes)

 

once there is a combat log there will be more actuals, until then anyone giving straight numbers is pulling them out of their arse

[PaintOnASign]

wowwiki is a wow site, wow sucks and i find wow theorycrafting sucky, it is like trying to pick appart how to make the perfect mcdonald's happy meal, even once you have perfected the art... its still just mcdonald's food

 

all i get from that is you don't like WoW. which is an awesome opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

also, there are quite a few spreadsheets now with better numbers to look at. but again, without combat logs, its all theory. but its better than some random person in general claiming to do X amount of DPS.

Edited March 10, 2012 by PaintOnASign