Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Usarina]

I'm a good player in a hardcore raiding guid and we need Recount and we don't care what the casuals think or want.

 

I'm a casual player in a Guild that intends to progress through content as and when we can in a friendly environment. We don't need Recount, so we don't want in-game meters implemented. We don't care what the hardcore raiders think or want anymore than they care about us.

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

 

I'm not sure how the raiders can guarantee that meters will not negatively impact the game-play of anyone else. Anecdotal evidence from other games suggests that it does. Not all jerks are always vocal jerks, unless you give them a reason, like, for instance, a dps meter.

 

And in terms of numbers, hardcore raiders are an even smaller minority in this than in most MMOs. The subscriptions of raiders in guilds aiming for world firsts, or even server firsts, are trivial, BW doesn't need to care what you think. It needs to care about the people that want Corso to have a beard option a great deal more.

 

I'm in favor of meters, I think they are a useful tool. Unlike some of the posters in here.

[Motoeric]

Recount is probably one of the only reasons i raided, that and if i happened to like the particular lore, i wanted gear, or think the dungeon looked cool.

 

But mostly because of the DPS competition.

 

I'm definately NOT an elitist, i just find enjoyment in competition, and factual data that i can look at and improve upon.

 

I'm not good at iterating my exact feelings on this subject, but i would say i feel as strongly about this as i (and others) feel about ability delay.

 

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WIN LIST:

 

DMG METER

CHARACTER RESPONSIVENESS

DUNGEON FINDER

 

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[JustTed]

I'm a good player in a hardcore raiding guid and we need Recount and we don't care what the casuals think or want.

 

Unfortunately, "hardcores" makes up like 5% of any MMORPG, and no video game company cares about catering to you. We all learned this years ago, when 5% of you saw Naxxramas in WoW 1.x.

 

Sorry. No ones cares about you and your guild.

[cravenid]

i support a personal dps and threat meter.

 

with that i mean you can only see your own dps and your own threat levels

[Usarina]

Unfortunately, "hardcores" makes up like 5% of any MMORPG, and no video game company cares about catering to you. We all learned this years ago, when 5% of you saw Naxxramas in WoW 1.x.

 

Sorry. No ones cares about you and your guild.

 

You didn't get past my first sentence. Go back and read the whole post.

[Setanian]

not cheating is adding up your damage manually, counting all the numbers that fly over your head and then breaking out your TI-85 and punching the buttons rather than letting the game count them for you.

 

you are narrow to the point of being a troll. that doesn't even make any sense whatsoever.

 

eat with your hands, because you're cheating using utensils to accomplish the feat of feeding yourself. :|

 

this guy...

 

Was there a point there somewhere. No.. Didn't think so.

[Setanian]

the people who don't want recount are the people who want to smoke weed on their couch all day and still collect a paycheck.

 

Do you have any facts to back up that preposterous statement?

 

Can you even point to one person you know who doesn't want recount and smokes weed all day?

 

No, didn't think so. Someone doesn't understand the difference between an analogy and facts.

[Greywinter]

SWTOR needs some sort of combat log, not just recount. However, first thing's first they need to fix ability delay problem, everything else is secondary. Edited January 14, 2012 by Greywinter

[Truga]

OK, so far I've seen several fallacies going on in these threads. Let's sum them up here:

 

1) Add-ons, logs, and what-not don't make the game easier.

This is, quite frankly, the biggest load of bollocks I have ever seen. If you can throw yourself at an encounter, knowing full well that even if absolutely no one pays attention to detail like boss/add/dungeon animations and you can after a fail just check the log/add-on to see why someone died and try again 3 minutes later, I call that making the game easier. Likewise, if I can see within three minutes on each enemy which rotation does the most dps on it, while causing it to do the least damage on me and making me use the least resources, that's what I call making the game easier.

 

2) Add-ons make people into elitist jerks.

Here's a thought. I'm an elitist jerk (I really am), and I'll stay an elitist jerk whether I have add-ons or not. I have the courtesy of not being an elitist jerk in normal PUGs, but when I play hard mode end-game with other people who play hard mode end-game, I expect performance. If you can't perform, you will get found out sooner or later, combat logs or no combat logs, add-ons or no add-ons, and either improve or get the boot.

 

3) Add-ons and/or logs make theorycrafting, number crunching and competitive gameplay possible.

This is the most hilarious one. Number crunching is already happening. I do it already, and I haven't even reached the end-game yet, because I decided I want to see all the content first. There's also a ton of other MMOs out there, where people min/max like crazy and they don't even have floating numbers, much less combat logs. They do it with a stopwatch in one hand and mscalc in the other. Are you saying that the tooltips, telling you exactly what kind of damage you do, 1.5 sec GCD and the information about each skill's CD and resource cost aren't enough to calculate what kind of rotation to use in each situation? And here's newsflash. Quake, Starcraft and DotA games are the most competitive in the world, and they feature no in-game calculators/add-ons. Are you arguing that each zealot in Starcraft should have a DPS bar next to their HP and shield bars, so you can see which one is slacking?

 

4) Add-ons/logs are needed for better content.

I also lol every time I see this argument. Saying the allowed blizzard to make more fun content. They could've made that content even without anything, it'd just take the players a week longer to get it on farm mode, because they'd have to figure stuff out for themselves, rather than looking at a log/add-on.

 

5) People who don't want logs/add-ons are people who want to be lazy.

Here's a story from days of old. I used to be a ridiculously good player at Q2, back in 99. I'd say I was at or very near the top of my country, and my country were world champions that year, even though I still played on dial-up, when a lot of people were already moving to ISDN/Cable. That's how good I was. Then came the age of Quake 3, where everyone set their game to look like grayscale textures with bright green enemies jumping around. I couldn't compete. Because I am a clumsy person, I used a lot of tactics that abused map lightings, dark corners, nasty tactics and other such things to get around. When people could just notice me all the same no matter what I pulled off, because they had the help of "add-ons", I couldn't compete anymore. It spelled the death of my and some of my friends' playstyle. I later got ADSL, a good computer and could play competitively again, but I was never again near the top, like I was in Q2. So no, not everyone that doesn't want something just wants to be lazy. I can tell you that people will have to work harder to get their stuff without add-ons. Some that argue against it might not know that, but I'm betting most do.

 

6) Damage meter allows people to post their e-peen around.

Guess what? This is already happening now, and it's going to happen more, since some form of "personal" damage meter is pretty much confirmed in one of these threads. And how do you prevent someone from "linking" their meter? They can just type the number up into chat if there's no other way. Are you going to pre-emptively ignore anyone you group with to get around this issue?

 

I'm sure there's more I can't remember now.

 

Now that we've got that straightened out, can we please focus the discussion on actual facts? I personally want Recount because it'd make leading PUGs a lot easier, and leading PUGs is something I enjoy. It gives you a new experience every time you run something, and with the amount of end-game content we currently have that's a good thing. I however, will not quit over recount not making it in, because it just isn't game-breaking, and an extra PUG fail or two per month that could be averted via Recount won't drive me away from the game.

 

I, however, do not want to flaunt fallacies around this forum to make my point. And that's a bad thing for both sides, because the developers reading this will just laugh and shrug the entire thing off.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Quelor]

I have yet to read 1 good reason to not have meters.

 

They have *********** enrage timers on bosses. They already want you to outgear / perform well on the dps. There are 4 people in the groups now, 2 dps.

If I fail on an enounter I usually take with ease, I can now flame and kick the other dps knowing that he sucks. I do not need meters to be a dick.

[Kaarina]

No Please do not ruin the game by letting DPS meters in, they only start elitist grouping. If people can not play it will be obvious without meters

[GalacticKegger]

OK, so far I've seen several fallacies going on in these threads. Let's sum them up here:

Succinctly to your points:

 

1) Add-ons, logs, and what-not make the game easier.

True. Because they accelerate the process of defeating content. They can also add elements of "better control through complexity" to the gaming experience, but hard and complex aren't the same thing.

 

2) Add-ons make people into elitist jerks.

False. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Elitist jerks are such before they ever log on.

 

3) Add-ons and/or logs make theorycrafting, number crunching and competitive gameplay possible.

False. But they do make performing their functions easier by automating or streamlining their processes.

 

4) Add-ons/logs are needed for better content.

False. Better creative design is needed for better content. The mining and parsing tools that dev needs for metric analysis are already built into the back end. Porting them out to a UI merely permits player visualization of filtered data.

 

5) People who don't want logs/add-ons are people who want to be lazy.

False. People who don't want add-ons are either relaxed atmosphere gamers, or gamers who prefer the challenge of playing a game on its own merits.

 

6) Damage meter allows people to post their e-peen around.

False. It doesn't allow them to, though it's use might encourage some to.

Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[ousooner]

I don't support anything that promotes elitism, or helps to make the cookie cutter build spec.

[babynubnub]

There really is no logical reason to not have a recount-esque addon, the only reason people have given is basically "im bad and perform very poorly compared to everyone else and i dont want people to know it"

[Xeikai]

I have yet to read any valid reason to not have combat meters, (Which are coming, whether you like it or not). Basically every complaint against them can be translated to such:

 

I don't want combat logs because I'm bad/lazy and I'd rather hide in a raid pointing fingers at other so i can mash my auto attack while watching tv.

 

Seriously, there's no reason not to have them, they are a tool for so much more than damage, If SWTOR wants to make encounters based on Enrage timers, we're going to need them to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you wanna play the game your way with your own spec, then just stick to solo content or play with a group of like minded friends. Your not high end raiding material and you shouldn't be so quick to waste other peoples time by trying to pose as such.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Xeikai

[krinaman]

Your not high end raiding material and you shouldn't be so quick to waste other peoples time by trying to pose as such.

 

I can assure you that few if any of the people who oppose meters want anything to do with high end raiding.

 

Where I seen problems with meters is the mostly faceroll 5 man pug content of WoW. Where the meters did zero good and caused many wipes due to tunnel vision.

 

As for doing stuff solo. Sure! Sign me up. The only problem is the "high end raiders" insist that end game must be group content if it gives any gear that is an actual upgrade. Add a system of solo progressive content where I can improve my character and a lot of these complaints go away.

[babynubnub]

Nobody in this entire 85 page "debate" has made one good argument against meters. Sounds mostly like people interested in cloaking their "badness"

[GalacticKegger]

Nobody in this entire 85 page "debate" has made one good argument against meters. Sounds mostly like people interested in cloaking their "badness"

Feeling a tad uber perhaps? Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[babynubnub]

Feeling a tad uber perhaps?

 

No, just really lacking any kind of understanding why people would not want to know their own and other performance. The whole "well i get booted out of other games because of marginal under performance" deal I dont buy, doing like 1 - 3 percent less dps than the average doesn't get you kicked out, or healing for that matter, but it's doing markedly worse than everyone else, 15, 25, 35 percent under performance.

[zolthie]

Nobody in this entire 85 page "debate" has made one good argument against meters. Sounds mostly like people interested in cloaking their "badness"

 

This is the truth, sadly.

[babynubnub]

And yes, my point is if you're that bad in END GAME content, you should be removed from a group and not carried because you don't know how to play your class, regardless of whatever other skills you bring. Also don't fire up the "well im on interrupts" or w/e else, because that is completely different, someone doing a fight specific mechanic like interrupting or some kind of whacky mechanic is different, I'm only talking about people who are just pure garbage on an even 1:1 playing field getting outplayed by leaps and bounds, they should not be in end game content.

[GalacticKegger]

No, just really lacking any kind of understanding why people would not want to know their own and other performance. The whole "well i get booted out of other games because of marginal under performance" deal I dont buy, doing like 1 - 3 percent less dps than the average doesn't get you kicked out, or healing for that matter, but it's doing markedly worse than everyone else, 15, 25, 35 percent under performance.

Because some people appreciate feeling every bump in the road instead of having digital representations of them flashing on their dashboard. Accusing purists of cloaking their badness is pretty lame really. Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[babynubnub]

Because some people appreciate feeling every bump in the road instead of having digital representations of them flashing on their dashboard.

 

Are you implying that someone would rather just be ignorant and oblivious to what is going on?

[GalacticKegger]

Are you implying that someone would rather just be ignorant and oblivious to what is going on?

Cloaking in badness? Ignorant? I'm seeing the pattern now. You kids have fun. Peace out.

[Jackus]

What is a purist?