Setanian Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My argument is that your argument is flawed because you do not provide any proof as to why you are right. I have a Bioware employee stating that FPS issues are localized issues that their bug team is cleaning up (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-10-bioware-most-people-arent-having-swtor-performance-issues) and you have "It's instanced down to 25 people because the engine is limited." With no citation and/or proof to your argument, I have to believe the evidence given to me by a reputable source. This is just crazy... Your reputable source.. Did you scroll down and read the comments? I mean people on that credible source have 16gb and i7s and have problems? Your credible source is claiming the issues are related to low-end machines. If an i7 with 16gb is low-end, well I'm just amazed. Also just to put a factor on the 'credibility'.. Bioware recently put a fix for the high end texture on the test server. The fix comprised of renaming the mid to high.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrotNoot Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I stumbled across a fix that REALLY helped my machine run SWTOR smoothly. In the SWTOR shortcut for the launcher, under compatibility, select to run as Win XP SP 3. I saw a post from a couple of graphics engineers that said something in the SWTOR engine was preventing Win7 from using some of its muscle. Telling SWTOR to run in compat mode made a HUGE difference. Your mileage may vary, but it certainly helped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skerry Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Guys - (all the ones saying NO, or never will, or can't etc) this is rediculous. The game engine will be tuned and tweaked and will get all straightened out in no time. How do I know? Well; considering not everyone is having this problem OR are having varying degrees of this problem means that the problem is not a "flaw" but a performance issue. Also; turnign off shadows drastically increases performance in PVP and large pop areas - so again, not an issue with the engine; but rather a performance issue. As with all performance issues - it is code; and code gets tweaked and streamlined and fixed. So yes - it will; don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daekarus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Odd. My computer is old and I don't get lag like... ever. Well, when my local cellular connection goes gonzo every once in a good while I'll get a ping spike, but really, if I'm not having trouble with a tethered smartphone and a Phenom II X4 with a single sub-$200 graphics card, it boggles my mind people are claiming the engine sucks. Clearly it works for some people, since nobody I've played with yet has complained of fps or lag issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollah Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 DING DING DING - GOOD GOD WATSON, I BELIEVE THIS MAN HAS IT! I totally agree with you. I don't have ANY probs with WoW or Rift - and there are tons of peeps in WoW and enough with Rift. And for those of you who played Rift, then you know that their graphics are 100% better there and I SUFFER NO LAG. Therefore, it MUST be the engine that they're using. I really don't believe that their engine has the capability to render a lot at any one given time - ergo the lag. This is a serious issue that REALLY needs to be addressed. They need to ditch this engine and get something that's, oh I don't know, FROM THIS CENTURY... That's all... lol at Rift and WoW not having lag issues. Some people just love to make things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argolith Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I didn't actually say that the engine is limited to 20 characters on the screen. However, API itself is limited to the actual number of 3D objects one can render. It's much greater then 20 However, my main issue (it's off-topic, of course) is the choice of API combined with the engine. I don't need to sources of actual limitations, because I can argue about cons and pros of available graphical software/hardware APIs, because I happen to be a developer of scientific software for GPU farms. So, yeah... They can jump through the hoops trying to fix performance issues here and there but they won't be able to overcome actual API limitations. It's very possible that there are significant limitations in their implementation at this time. However I do see a few articles that suggest that Bioware is expected to support DX11 at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krakken Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 NO and here's the proof. During beta testing 15 on each side decided to go to tatooine and try open world pvp. When we arrived, even before we started fighting, the lag got to be unbearable. As soon as the first volley was fired everyone participating in the fight got lagges so bad we all dropped. We tried it 3 times and same result every time. Theres a reason you only see about one open world opposition, bioware doesnt want open world pvp because the game cant handle it. Its the sorriest engine they are using for this game and bioware has shortchanged the players by never having a real pvp system. My quesiton is how could such a horrid pvp system ever make it to the game? Right now its nothing but level 50 gank squads teaming up to bolster their ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollah Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 NO and here's the proof. During beta testing 15 on each side decided to go to tatooine and try open world pvp. . Not it was 100+ people including companions, I know I was there. Go on Youtube and find the videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfulpotato Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I find it funny that all you are complaining about this when the other half of the forum is whinning for instance finders and way to even more make the worlds feel smaller just like wow has transformed into. Also, I get no lag even with more then 20 people. I even have a older gpu (4850 1gb - "Max" settings). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 lol at Rift and WoW not having lag issues. Some people just love to make things up. lol at SW:ToR not having lag issues. Some people just love to make things up. See what I did there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollah Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 lol at SW:ToR not having lag issues. Some people just love to make things up. See what I did there I never said SWTOR didn't have lag issues. The Devs themselves said it does. What was your point again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argolith Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is just crazy... Your reputable source.. Did you scroll down and read the comments? I mean people on that credible source have 16gb and i7s and have problems? Your credible source is claiming the issues are related to low-end machines. If an i7 with 16gb is low-end, well I'm just amazed. Also just to put a factor on the 'credibility'.. Bioware recently put a fix for the high end texture on the test server. The fix comprised of renaming the mid to high.. From my source (Emphasis Mine): However, we know that it's important that there is a smaller group of people usually with lower end machines that are having problems in some areas. And one of the most important things for us to grow our service is to continue to bring in more players, including those players who only have low-end machines. So we have a client team, a team of programmers, whose entire job is to optimise the code, find out where some of the issues are, and then fix that up. The bolded part is important. It's not written well and I would have added some commas to make it more clear: However, we know that it's important that there is a smaller group of people, usually with lower end machines, that are having problems in some areas. He is stating that most commonly it is caused by persons with lower end machines, but clearly is not saying that it is exclusive to those individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I never said SWTOR didn't have lag issues. The Devs themselves said it does. What was your point again? Without repeating everything I said in every post which I'm sure you've read The engine as employed in ToR is ***** in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireking Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I have had no issues with lag and I travel the worlds on my speeder not taxi and I have had no issues. The only instanced areas I have seen are the ones where you walk through a green door or flashpoints or operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdream Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's very possible that there are significant limitations in their implementation at this time. However I do see a few articles that suggest that Bioware is expected to support DX11 at some point. Let's hope it's the case, because the game is fun, mindless fun but fun and that's exactly what I want, because I get enough brain storming better part of the day. DX11 wouldn't just resolve number of performance issues, it would also allow them to implement things people expect from the game nowadays i.e. better shadow maps, larger textures, better dynamic lighting, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjskull Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Everyone is so eager to get hopped up about this and bandy their techy bonafides and toss around David Hume references. Let's examine this from this perspective: All the posters are telling the truth from a performance perspective. Some players have major lag issues and some have zero issues. (I personally fall into the latter group. I PVP, run around on all planets with no issues, stand near the GTN with 40 people, 170 total on fleet, no lag, 80+ FPS low end, ususally 110 ish.) If we operate under this hypothetical, that everyone is telling the truth, then how can it be the engine? The engine is the one thing we know for sure that all players have in common. Why do *so many* have no issues (including the sizable group I play with that I know from real life) if the engine is at fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanni Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) NO and here's the proof. During beta testing 15 on each side decided to go to tatooine and try open world pvp. When we arrived, even before we started fighting, the lag got to be unbearable. As soon as the first volley was fired everyone participating in the fight got lagges so bad we all dropped. We tried it 3 times and same result every time. Theres a reason you only see about one open world opposition, bioware doesnt want open world pvp because the game cant handle it. Its the sorriest engine they are using for this game and bioware has shortchanged the players by never having a real pvp system. My quesiton is how could such a horrid pvp system ever make it to the game? Right now its nothing but level 50 gank squads teaming up to bolster their ranks. I've seen enough videos of players doing fights on Tatooine 50vs50+ to know this post is absolute BS. Edited January 10, 2012 by Hanni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morbidillusion Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I am not using a logical fallacy. You are making the claim. You do not have evidence to support your claim, yet expect me to believe it because I cannot prove it to be false. You are using the logical fallacy, not I. I have a reputable source (A bioware employee, in an interview with eurogamer that I have already linked multiple times in this thread) that states that a majority of the FPS issues are localized issues that they have a team of developers going around and fixing. Therefore evidence is in support of my supposition that this is the cause of degradation of performance as opposed to limitations inherent to the hero engine. edit: Grammarz Please locate and name the fallacy in the following argument (the argument I have been making for pages now): Premise 1: Instancing the main game world is counter-intuitive to the MMO experience, it is essentially looked down upon in all forms. Premise 2: The game would be better enjoyed by its players without an instanced main game world. Premise 3: SW:TOR instances the main game world. Conclusion: Either BioWare doesn't want its game to be better enjoyed by its players or has another reason for instancing the main game world. Using this conclusion as a premise: Premise 1: BioWare has a reason to instance the main game world. Premise 2: The only advantage to instancing the main game world is increasing performance in situations where too many players are on screen. Conclusion: BioWare has instanced the main game world because the game does not perform in a satisfactory manner if it is not. Edited January 10, 2012 by morbidillusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollah Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Without repeating everything I said in every post which I'm sure you've read The engine as employed in ToR is ***** in my opinion The fact you know nothing about engines, means your opinion is irrelevant. A lot of Google heros up in here. Edited January 10, 2012 by Bollah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollah Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Please locate and name the fallacy in the following argument (the argument I have been making for pages now): Premise 1: Instancing the main game world is counter-intuitive to the MMO experience, it is essentially looked down upon in all forms. Premise 2: The game would be better enjoyed by its players without an instanced main game world. Premise 3: SW:TOR instances the main game world. Conclusion: Either BioWare doesn't want its game to be better enjoyed by its players or has another reason for instancing the main game world. Using this conclusion as a premise: Premise 1: BioWare has a reason to instance the main game world. Premise 2: The only advantage to instancing the main game world is increasing performance in situations where too many players are on screen. Conclusion: BioWare has instanced the main game world because the game does not perform in a satisfactory manner if it is not. The main game world is not instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthSublimitas Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Oh dear God - I just did some research into Hero Engine - It can best be compared to - you know like when you want to build a website and don't want to pay money for it, you go to those cheapo "free" websites - well that's Hero Engine for you. It's for those amateur kiddies who want to build online games - this is NOT professional at all. This is NOT in studio development. No wonder we have all of these problems. People read the entire site: http://www.heroengine.com/heroengine/why-heroengine/ http://www.heroengine.com/herocloud/ Now I understand why BW went with a 3rd World, outsourced CS and why they know NOTHING about the game. NOTHING IS IN-HOUSE. Dear god what have they done??? This is a generic engine that anyone without any kind of know-how can use. I'm going to cry...:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanni Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Oh dear God - I just did some research into Hero Engine - It can best be compared to - you know like when you want to build a website and don't want to pay money for it, you go to those cheapo "free" websites - well that's Hero Engine for you. It's for those amateur kiddies who want to build online games - this is NOT professional at all. This is NOT in studio development. No wonder we have all of these problems. People read the entire site: http://www.heroengine.com/heroengine/why-heroengine/ http://www.heroengine.com/herocloud/ Now I understand why BW went with a 3rd World, outsourced CS and why they know NOTHING about the game. NOTHING IS IN-HOUSE. Dear god what have they done??? This is a generic engine that anyone without any kind of know-how can use. I'm going to cry...:( Facepalm. Edited January 10, 2012 by Hanni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argolith Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Premise 1: Instancing the main game world is counter-intuitive to the MMO experience, it is essentially looked down upon in all forms. Opinion, not fact. Premise 2: The game would be better enjoyed by its players without an instanced main game world. Opinion, not fact. Premise 3: SW:TOR instances the main game world. Woot.. a fact! Hooray Conclusion: Either BioWare doesn't want its game to be better enjoyed by its players or has another reason for instancing the main game world. Your conclusion is flawed because the only thing we KNOW is that the world is instanced. Therefore, the entirety of your argument is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyfeld Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 After 3 games of pvp, I decided to avoid warzones altogether until the responsiveness issue is fixed. I don't usually have too many issues in the way of FPS (except on the fleet), but when abilities don't activate until about a full second after the GCD completes, it makes pvp unplayable. Of course, there are responsiveness issues outside of warzones as well, but the high number of players on screen at ones just seem to exacerbate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogitu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Well I guess WoW and Rift are doing something right... And there are things called "emulation" layers. I'm sick of hearing excuses. I have my Masters in Information Systems Management / Info Sec - I don't want excuses anymore - I want solutions. you do realize that your "masters degree" is absolutely meaningless in this regard, do you? though i actually doubt you even have it... Edited January 10, 2012 by Mogitu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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