Current State of Mitigation in PvP.

[chainsawsamurai]

This has been discussed some in Taugrim's thread, but I think it deserves its own post to better spread awareness.

 

There are no combat logs or parsers, so instead I tested all of this with good old fashioned tedium. I spent quite a long time yesterday on Dromund Kaas letting my very dedicated girlfriend's buck naked Operative stab me in the back while Mako and Dr Loken had a fist fight.

 

I'll start with the good news:

 

Defense and Shields in this game are omni-directional. Unlike some other games where you could only block or dodge in a frontal arc, a qualifying attack from any direction may be shielded or avoided (Dodged, in the case of Bounty Hunters).

 

Additionally Shielding works while stunned so long as it is a qualifying attack.

Now for the bad news. You're not going to like it.

 

Above I highlighted the significant phrase "qualifying attack." While the in game tooltips for defense and shielding seem to indicate that they will protect against any ranged or melee attack (which logic dictates must be most if not all of them), this is nowhere near the case currently.

 

As it stands, both Defense and Shielding only protect against an attack which does "Weapon Damage." I haven't exhaustively tested, but so far these all seem consistent with their tooltips.

 

What does this mean? Well, take a moment to look at your own bars. Imagine you are facing another Bounty Hunter, and take a quick moment to appraise the skills to see what your Defense and Shield will actually protect against.

 

I'll save you some counting. Three. Rapid Shots, Unload, and Rail Shot.

 

Rocket Punch deals Kinetic Damage. It bypasses your Defense and Shields entirely. Still mitigated by Armor.

 

Flame Burst deals Elemental Damage. It bypasses your Defense, Shields, and Armor entirely.

 

I'm sure you see a pattern emerging here.

 

This sounds pretty bad. In practical application a vast majority of a rival Powertech's damage is going to bypass Defense and Shields, and another good chunk doesn't care about your armor either.

 

How deep does this rabbit hole go exactly?

 

Operatives only have three attacks which are mitigated/avoided by Shields and Defense. Rifle Shots, Overload Shot, and Carbine Burst. They also have access to a decent chunk of armor penetration through Acid Blade and a solid amount of Internal damage through "poisons" (though the damn names are all acid, whatever). The opening salvo of an Operative which takes your HP down to 30% is entirely composed of attacks which bypass Shields and Defense.

 

Mercenaries have the same attacks which can be defended against as we do plus Sweeping Blasters. While they are tearing your armor to shreds with Tracer Missile you are incapable of avoiding it through Defense.

 

Assassins have approximately 5 which these stats are capable of defending you against (the Saber attacks). Everything else not only bypasses Defense and Shields, but Armor as well.

 

Sorcerers, of course, will entirely bypass your defenses (unless they're stupid enough to swing at you). I did find that a majority of Sorc/Sage attacks are either Energy or Kinetic and are mitigated by Armor.

 

The classes we mitigate the most against are Warriors (both Marauders and Juggernauts) and Snipers. All three classes have several tools which bypass Defense and Shields, but for the most part their core abilities are affected by our defensive stats.

 

 

So, what does this all mean?

 

It means that, in PvP, Shields and Defense are nowhere near as effective as we've been led to believe. This further diminishes the general concept of PvP tanking and is a heavy blow to the Shieldtech tree especially.

 

This espescially diminishes the value of Shieldtech beyond Jet Charge if you do still wish to invest in that tree. It also confirms why myself and others haven't felt any more squishy after switching to a hybrid ST build.

 

PvP tanking still plays a role, however stacking actual tanking gear is not advisable. The main function of PvP tanking can be entirely achieved with Ion Cylinder and Guard. The most significant returns on PvP mitigation is from the Cylinder itself and the Expertise stat. Everything else you are getting an extremely poor return on.

 

This may have repercussions in PvE as well. We are currently theorized as the most mitigating tank (not by a large margin), however depending on what you can and cannot shield against in encounters we may actually be quite a bit behind the power curve (although our threat generation is still pretty slick). I have no means of really testing this at the moment, really no one does until we get some actual parsers or combat logs.

 

Unrelated to us: Warrior classes and Snipers are facing a pretty hefty handicap in PvP at the moment as they are the only ones significantly affected by mitigation/avoidance statistics.

 

 

 

I have now informed you. What you do with this information is up to you.

 

GLHF.

 

-Chainsaw Sam

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[chainsawsamurai]

Reserved for an FAQ if anything significant comes up during discussion, also perhaps for changes/updates.

 

DEFENSE, SHIELD and ARMOR - short version

 

* All three work in any direction.

* At least Shield and Armor work while stunned (has been tested). I'm not sure about defense(?).

 

-----

 

There are 4 different attack types and 4 different damage types in the game (afaik).

 

Attack types:

* Force

* Melee

* Ranged

* Tech

 

Damage types:

* Elemental

* Energy

* Internal

* Kinetic

 

-----

 

Different attack types and damage types bypass different parts of Defense, Shield and Armor. Putting these in a "table" with Defense, Shield and Armor notes, we get the following:

					[color="Cyan"]Force or Tech[/color] attack				[color="Cyan"]Melee or Ranged[/color] attack
[color="Yellow"]Elemental or Internal[/color] damage	[color="Red"]No armor[/color] + [color="Red"]No defense & shield[/color]		[color="Red"]No armor[/color] + [color="Lime"]Full defense & shield[/color]
[color="Yellow"]Energy or Kinetic[/color] damage		[color="Lime"]Full armor[/color] + [color="Red"]No defense & shield[/color]		[color="Lime"]Full armor[/color] + [color="Lime"]Full defense & shield[/color]

 

-----

 

NOTE: These mechanics are true for both PvP and PvE. (But in PvE the majority of mobs do melee or ranged attacks, with kinetic damage, so all three of Defense, Armor and Shield remain very useful.)

 

 

 

Unrelated notes from testing:

 

-- Guard works fine, our tooltip is just wrong. Not the other Tank class' tooltips, just ours. Awesome.

 

Random Thoughts:

 

--If Defense is virtually worthless in PvP, how come all our DPS PvP sets have so much damned accuracy?

Edited January 11, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Xsorus]

Welcome to my assessment from a month ago.

 

You can look up my posts, If you want to tank in PvP

 

31 Points AP/10 Shield Tech, Make sure you get the 20% reduction in damage while stunned, Despite morons on this forum not picking it up, because they think they can have a 2 min CC break up every fight.

 

How beefy is this spec? I've sat in the middle of the Acid while tanking level 50 Premades and have not died while holding the ball in Huttball.

[chainsawsamurai]

You never said anything about actual mitigation or defenses not working against a majority of PvP attacks. You just paraded on about your 20% mitigation while stunned talent, which I admitted was the best part of Adv Proto.

 

Also, you can Shield while stunned. Not that you'd know, you didn't care enough to do the testing and inform the community.

[Xsorus]

You never said anything about actual mitigation or defenses not working against a majority of PvP attacks. You just paraded on about your 20% mitigation while stunned talent, which I admitted was the best part of Adv Proto.

 

Also, you can Shield while stunned. Not that you'd know, you didn't care enough to do the testing and inform the community.

 

Can you actually prove you can shield while stunned, Because I never could prove I could.

 

Then again that's probably absence of the combat log more then anything.

 

It could actually be shielding attacks not working against a Majority of attacks, But then again my premise is still the same, Shield was worthless and it was better to go up the AP line if ya wanted to tank in PvP.

[chainsawsamurai]

I'm sitting in Dromund Kaas with my GF's Operative in a duel right now. She hits Debilitate and then nails me with a couple of Rifle Shots (their free "Weapon Damage" attack). I haven't gotten Defense to work yet (admittedly this gear only has 10% chance), but the Shield works as expected.

 

I'm going to have her strip down to remove her excess accuracy and see if I can get a Dodge out of her while stunned. Maybe not, but Shield works.

 

Edit: I currently have enough time between Debilitates to make these posts obviously.

 

Edit2: She plays a male Imperial Agent (don't ask, she loves the voice actor or something), she's got him standing buck naked in front of my male BH for a minute at a time between our brief tests. I have no idea what the lowbies in DK are thinking as they run by us, but it can't be good.

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Xsorus]

I'm sitting in Dromund Kaas with my GF's Operative in a duel right now. She hits Debilitate and then nails me with a couple of Rifle Shots (their free "Weapon Damage" attack). I haven't gotten Defense to work yet (admittedly this gear only has 10% chance), but the Shield works as expected.

 

I'm going to have her strip down to remove her excess accuracy and see if I can get a Dodge out of her while stunned. Maybe not, but Shield works.

 

Edit: I currently have enough time between Debilitates to make these posts obviously.

 

Quite possible you just don't see it then based on attacks just ignoring shield outright.

 

Probably why I never noticed it while being stunned and beat on by large groups.

 

Though to be honest, I see it go off while being attacked and not being stunned in PvP. But if ya say it works on Weapon Damage attacks while stunned, I'll take your Word for it.

[theangryllama]

Don't pay enough attention in PvP but in PvE you can definately shield while stunned. I've very clearly seen the rocket punch refresh and blue flash while stunned (also while channeling which is an interesting difference to other games).

 

That would be the easiest way to test if you are shielding... rocket punch her/the companion and see if it refreshes at all.

 

Definately interesting to know its not just me though... even if I'm only 40 I've noticed some times i can go toe to toe with people and feel unkillable and then i get games like today with sorcerers/consulars and merc/commandos everywhere (i kid you not. Today had 1 game with 5/8 enemy commandos and another with 4 sorcs and 3 assassins) where i feel like I'm made of paper

[chainsawsamurai]

I'm willing to call it.

 

While stunned you can Shield, and cannot defend. I'm sick of testing for 2 shots every minute that her Debilitate is up. Shielded plenty, dodged none, she even missed one.

[Xsorus]

Here is something that's worthwhile of testing, Guard.

 

How is the damage of Guard Calculated, as in, For Example, lets say I use Flameburst on someone, and he can't block it cause it just ignores shield, However lets say he's guarded and 50% of that damage goes to the Tank.

 

Does that Damage count as unguarded damage, Or is it just considered Weapon Attack Damage for example, and thus You see Rocketpunch refresh more often while guarding people then you would if being attacked (which seemed like it did)

[chainsawsamurai]

Here is something that's worthwhile of testing, Guard.

 

How is the damage of Guard Calculated, as in, For Example, lets say I use Flameburst on someone, and he can't block it cause it just ignores shield, However lets say he's guarded and 50% of that damage goes to the Tank.

 

Does that Damage count as unguarded damage, Or is it just considered Weapon Attack Damage for example, and thus You see Rocketpunch refresh more often while guarding people then you would if being attacked (which seemed like it did)

 

I can't really reliably test that.

 

Without any tools for testing I'm relegated to fancy duel testing. Guard doesn't work on your Companions in duels (maybe at all? I guess I should test that huh?) so I can't test its interaction.

 

I could try sending Mako charging off into a pack of mobs with my Guard on her and see what happens, but when I test in a duel I know what abilities are being used and what sort of damage to expect from them (my GF sits right next to me when we play and she's the one I'm testing with). Sending Mako off into a pack of mobs doesn't really accomplish that since I have no idea what sort of damage for her to expect and what should be reflected to me.

 

With out knowing exactly what damage types are being done, how much of a range I should expect, etc I can't really do anything accurate.

 

Really bummed me out because that was one of my goals for yesterday.

 

I suppose the one thing I could test is to send her charging in and just stare at myself and wait for a shield proc to see if Shield/Defense has any bearing what so ever on guard. I might do that later today.

[Xsorus]

I can't really reliably test that.

 

Without any tools for testing I'm relegated to fancy duel testing. Guard doesn't work on your Companions in duels (maybe at all? I guess I should test that huh?) so I can't test its interaction.

 

I could try sending Mako charging off into a pack of mobs with my Guard on her and see what happens, but when I test in a duel I know what abilities are being used and what sort of damage to expect from them (my GF sits right next to me when we play and she's the one I'm testing with). Sending Mako off into a pack of mobs doesn't really accomplish that since I have no idea what sort of damage for her to expect and what should be reflected to me.

 

With out knowing exactly what damage types are being done, how much of a range I should expect, etc I can't really do anything accurate.

 

Really bummed me out because that was one of my goals for yesterday.

 

I suppose the one thing I could test is to send her charging in and just stare at myself and wait for a shield proc to see if Shield/Defense has any bearing what so ever on guard. I might do that later today.

 

I think Guard works in PVE, it seems whenever I guarded Mako while leveling up it was a death sentence with AOE mobs.

 

I don't know about Duels though, another possible way is to get someone to go with illum with ya from the other side, and see if that works.

 

If Shield Chance works very good against Guarded Attacks (as in the Guarded attacks are just considered normal hits) it'd make Shield Tech pretty good as Guard Bots I imagine.

 

I'm suspecting it works that way though, just because that's how Guard worked in Warhammer Online, Just all damage was converted into white damage that you could block/parry.

[chainsawsamurai]

Guard does NOT work on companions. It didn't in the duel earlier and I've got Mako standing right next to me shooting away at some mobs right now in Belsavis. She's taking damage, I'm not.

 

I removed the guard and she continues to take the same range of damage, so it isn't like she's only taking half and the other half is disappearing or something.

 

Pretty disappointing. Does anything we have do what it says on the tin?

[chainsawsamurai]

Girlfriends Operative came out. Punched an Elite in the face to get its attention and take some hits.

 

The damage transfer portion of Guard does NOT work in PvE. Period. It only redirects damage caused by players.

 

Comparison of tooltips shows the discrepancy:

 

Our tooltip: "... In additon 50% of all damage from enemies is transferred back to you."

 

The tooltip on the Guard buff (applied to your target): "Damage taken and threat generation reduced. Redirecting 50% of damage from players."

 

I never thought to check the Buff's tooltip until my Girlfriend pointed it out. This is pretty *********** agitating.

 

What is more irritating is that it doesn't even do that in PvP on your companions. You are a tank, you are in an open world PvP zone with your Companion. You are incapable of utilizing your basic tank skills to make you and your companion better. Nothing is stopping another player from Healing or Bubbling their companions, you're just screwed because you're a tank and your mechanics suck. GG BW.

 

Edit: Even worse, I now have no environment where I can reliably test Guard's interaction with Shield/Defense/Armor because there are no server forums to recruit help from the Republic.

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Xsorus]

Girlfriends Operative came out. Punched an Elite in the face to get its attention and take some hits.

 

The damage transfer portion of Guard does NOT work in PvE. Period. It only redirects damage caused by players.

 

Comparison of tooltips shows the discrepancy:

 

Our tooltip: "... In additon 50% of all damage from enemies is transferred back to you."

 

The tooltip on the Guard buff (applied to your target): "Damage taken and threat generation reduced. Redirecting 50% of damage from players."

 

I never thought to check the Buff's tooltip until my Girlfriend pointed it out. This is pretty *********** agitating.

 

What is more irritating is that it doesn't even do that in PvP on your companions. You are a tank, you are in an open world PvP zone with your Companion. You are incapable of utilizing your basic tank skills to make you and your companion better. Nothing is stopping another player from Healing or Bubbling their companions, you're just screwed because you're a tank and your mechanics suck. GG BW.

 

Edit: Even worse, I now have no environment where I can reliably test Guard's interaction with Shield/Defense/Armor because there are no server forums to recruit help from the Republic.

 

I can understand the reasoning behind that if they did make it work that way.

 

Basically Guard in PvE is to lower threat only.

 

That's if it works even on Threat.

[Agroovesak]

Girlfriends Operative came out. Punched an Elite in the face to get its attention and take some hits.

 

The damage transfer portion of Guard does NOT work in PvE. Period. It only redirects damage caused by players.

 

Comparison of tooltips shows the discrepancy:

 

Our tooltip: "... In additon 50% of all damage from enemies is transferred back to you."

 

The tooltip on the Guard buff (applied to your target): "Damage taken and threat generation reduced. Redirecting 50% of damage from players."

 

I never thought to check the Buff's tooltip until my Girlfriend pointed it out. This is pretty *********** agitating.

 

What is more irritating is that it doesn't even do that in PvP on your companions. You are a tank, you are in an open world PvP zone with your Companion. You are incapable of utilizing your basic tank skills to make you and your companion better. Nothing is stopping another player from Healing or Bubbling their companions, you're just screwed because you're a tank and your mechanics suck. GG BW.

 

Edit: Even worse, I now have no environment where I can reliably test Guard's interaction with Shield/Defense/Armor because there are no server forums to recruit help from the Republic.

 

 

Should be able to test in outlaw's den. Group with your guard target and have your dpser drop group. Should allow you to guard your group member while the dpser can hit either of you.

[chainsawsamurai]

Should be able to test in outlaw's den. Group with your guard target and have your dpser drop group. Should allow you to guard your group member while the dpser can hit either of you.

 

Thanks, forgot about Outlaw's Den. When I can get some more people who have time I'll give it a shot (The GF is always available because I live with her, so she has to do it or put up with my whining).

[dardack]

So for hybrid, just get the elim set without putting the supercommando mods in it?

[chainsawsamurai]

So for hybrid, just get the elim set without putting the supercommando mods in it?

 

At this point, yes. I'd still carry a Shield Generator instead of a DPS Generator though. The damage loss isn't that much and it'll keep you at 20-25% shield chance for the Lightsabers and Sniper rifles out there.

[Breckin_Fett]

I remember reading somewhere that all force attacks are kinetic damage, and are therefore subject to armor mitigation.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

[chainsawsamurai]

I remember reading somewhere that all force attacks are kinetic damage, and are therefore subject to armor mitigation.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

 

Looks like all JEDI Force attacks are Kinetic (rocks and stuff).

 

All SITH Force attacks are Energy (Lightning and stuff).

 

Both mitigated by armor. Again, I'll test when I can to be sure, but signs point to Armor being more useful than I thought.

[Riulassher]

Looks like all JEDI Force attacks are Kinetic (rocks and stuff).

 

All SITH Force attacks are Energy (Lightning and stuff).

 

Both mitigated by armor. Again, I'll test when I can to be sure, but signs point to Armor being more useful than I thought.

 

That makes +16% armor talent even more juicy.

[chainsawsamurai]

That makes +16% armor talent even more juicy.

 

I don't know. I don't currently have it and am unsure how much raw mitigation it'll actually add with and without Ion Gas Cylinder.

 

I'd test this one, but my respec costs are already capped and I am waiting for them to reset here in a couple more days.

[BallaRa]

You have probably seen it, but I'll repost this (not written by me) from the original thread (so he's referring to the original thread and Taugrim's blog, not this thread), in case it helps getting to the bottom of this:

{...} I just wanted to comment on one thing. I actually stumbled upon your blog while investigating this myself. You posted that you cannot shield kinetic or elemental damage, but can only shield weapon damage attacks. This isn't quite how shielding works. In fact, "weapon damage" attacks are not even a real type of damage. They just do whatever type of damage your weapon says it does, such as energy for lightsabers or kinetic for vibroblades.

 

There are four types of attack (Force, melee, ranged, and tech) and four types of damage (elemental, energy, internal, and kinetic). You can avoid and shield melee and ranged attacks, not Force or tech ones. If you look at the dueling experiments in your blog, all of the attacks that were never shielded were Force or tech attacks. The damage type does not actually have anything to do with shielding, only if armor or Mark of Power applies.

[Mazikeen]

Guard does NOT work on companions. It didn't in the duel earlier and I've got Mako standing right next to me shooting away at some mobs right now in Belsavis. She's taking damage, I'm not

 

I used it on Blizz and it worked fine

 

Duels = PvP. It's very possible that guarding companions will not work in PvP because companions are PvE assistants

 

Also, keep in mind, shielding in this game is not like in most. Shielding in this game is passive and uses 'shield generators', not active like in most fantasy-themed games