Assault tree not hybrid-spec-friendly?

[Ermo]

Hi There

While waiting for my pre-order invitation i'm investigating the vanguard trees more closely to find something fitting. After some 31+ tree-Builds i also tried some hybrid builds, and found the assault tree pretty bad for it.

 

The reason is, that you can't go above the second tree level without need to spend point in a talent that supports Plasma Cell. This means that if I do not want to use plasma cell, I need to waste points to get higher in this tree.

 

I then checked how far I can get in each tree without speccing for their main Cell (if it make sense is another question though...)

 

Shield:

32 Points can be spent without need to spec Ion Cell

3 Talents to improve Ion Cell

 

Tactics:

33 Points can be spent without need to spec High Energy Cell

2 Talents to improve High Energy Cell

 

Assault:

7 Points can be spent without need to spec Plasma Cell

4 Talents to improve Plasma Cell

 

This is clearly a discrepancy between the specs, which makes hybrid specs using Assault as 2nd tree wasting points since 3 of the 4 talents for Plasma are placed on the first two levels of the three.

 

Did anyone else noted this? Or does noone get higher in assault tree (if not as primary spec) than 7 points?

[Heezdedjim]

This is clearly a discrepancy between the specs, which makes hybrid specs using Assault as 2nd tree wasting points since 3 of the 4 talents for Plasma are placed on the first two levels of the three.

I'm not sure it's a total waste, but you're right that there is no point going any higher than tier 1 on Assault unless you're going to be running Plasma Cell all the time. Hybrid spec doesn't have to mean swapping cells; you could run one cell all the time, or have one that is optimal, even if you pull talents from all three trees. But if you want to spec up any higher than the base abilities in Assault, whatever spec you come up with really needs to work well with Plasma Cell, or else you will be wasting a lot of points.

[Evin]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsZcGMrdhGM.1

The other way around - it works

 

 

No you're right. It's useless to go any further than the bottom talents if you're not assault.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Evin

[Ermo]

That's one I would more assign to a Assault build and since you will use Plasma Cell as your "always on" Cell, this will work fine.

 

I'm more pointing to either go for Storm (Shield) or Hold the line (Tactics) and then go up in Assault at least to get Incendiary Rounds for some more range ability. Main Cell should therefore be Ion Cell for better damage reduction or High Enegery Cell to get running speed.

 

I'm very liking the synergies of Assault towards HIB, but the PvP talents in the other trees are far more supperior to those from assault.

 

Edit:

Btw. Shield and Tactics both provide 3 new abilities. Assoult only 2...

Edited December 14, 2011 by Ermo

[Heezdedjim]

I'm very liking the synergies of Assault towards HIB, but the PvP talents in the other trees are far more supperior to those from assault.

To be fair, they have said that one DPS tree should be "better" for PvP and the other "better" for PvE. Assault seems to be the designated PvE tree, since it's DOT focused. BW also claims that "hybrid" builds will never be optimal, but this seems to be true in practice only in PvE; in PvP hybrids dominate, but you do have certain combinations that just won't work.

 

I'm not sure "moar range" matters much either way though. With the nerfing of the HIB CD ending proc from Assault, there is no "ranged" DPS tree for Vanguard at all anymore. It used to be that the HIB proc could fire off ranged abilities, but since this got "fixed" you now need to fire either a 4m or 10m attack to proc the CD ender on your number one 30m DPS ability; which is especially dumb considering everything else in Assault buffs 30m attacks.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Heezdedjim

[Titanium_Turtle]

I thought they intended all shared trees (Assualt) to be the PvP tree. If you look at the talents they seem to be very PvP based (holds, breakouts, etc).

 

I'm not sure it is really that bad that you have to use a 10m power to get the CD lifted on HIB. Heck, isn't most of the high damage to ammo tools in the 10m range anyway? (excluding HIB).

 

I'm not into PvP (cause I suck at it) but I made a PvE DPS Hybrid build focusing on HIB procing:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/trooper/vanguard/#::f2e2fe2fe4f3e2f2ef3ef16ef2efef3e2f2e2fe:

[Evin]

I thought they intended all shared trees (Assualt) to be the PvP tree. If you look at the talents they seem to be very PvP based (holds, breakouts, etc).

 

I'm not sure it is really that bad that you have to use a 10m power to get the CD lifted on HIB. Heck, isn't most of the high damage to ammo tools in the 10m range anyway? (excluding HIB).

 

I'm not into PvP (cause I suck at it) but I made a PvE DPS Hybrid build focusing on HIB procing:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/trooper/vanguard/#::f2e2fe2fe4f3e2f2ef3ef16ef2efef3e2f2e2fe:

 

I agree. For me the assault tree is the one which fits the most to the kind of 'hybrid' playstyle you have as a vanguard - switching between melee and some range.

 

There are some nice PVP talents and I don't see a problem with the DOT of Plasma Cell. Hell this thing proccs very quickly or you can force it to procc with 'Ionized Ignition'.

Some people seem to be scared of this but I fail to understand why a strong DOT should bother you, when it enables you to unload that kind of massive dmg on the target.

 

 

Sorry for going off-topic :S

Edited December 14, 2011 by Evin

[Ermo]

I thought they intended all shared trees (Assualt) to be the PvP tree. If you look at the talents they seem to be very PvP based (holds, breakouts, etc).

 

I'm not sure it is really that bad that you have to use a 10m power to get the CD lifted on HIB. Heck, isn't most of the high damage to ammo tools in the 10m range anyway? (excluding HIB).

 

I'm not into PvP (cause I suck at it) but I made a PvE DPS Hybrid build focusing on HIB procing:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/trooper/vanguard/#::f2e2fe2fe4f3e2f2ef3ef16ef2efef3e2f2e2fe:

 

I agree on this too. In fact, as long as you use Plasma Cell, Hybrids with Assault work pretty fine. I absolutely don't want to complain about Plasma Cell itself.... My point is more that I also like the skillable benefits of the other Cells.

 

Since activating/switching cells has cast time, the Vanguard will need to stand still to do this. This means no Cell-Dancing, which limits the player in PvP mostly to stick to one Cell.

 

@the build: Why do you skill Cell generator at the same time as skilling the plasma cell talents in assault? As written above, you won't switch Cells during combat (even in pve). But at least tactics tree has good alternatives to use.

[Titanium_Turtle]

@the build: Why do you skill Cell generator at the same time as skilling the plasma cell talents in assault? As written above, you won't switch Cells during combat (even in pve). But at least tactics tree has good alternatives to use.

 

It was filler to get to Combat Tactics. After looking over other posts, I'm going with this build:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZrsrMobcoZfhrbzh.1

 

It focuses on plasma cell.

 

Edit: Build is by Fatduck

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=173932#post173932

Edited December 14, 2011 by Titanium_Turtle

[Kesrik]

No tree is "hybrid friendly." If you skip the 31 point talent in any tree, you pretty much gimp yourself for no reason other than to feel special.

[Ermo]

No tree is "hybrid friendly." If you skip the 31 point talent in any tree, you pretty much gimp yourself for no reason other than to feel special.

 

And your arguments are.... oh right, there are none

 

Example: For pvp Gut is clearly better than Enegry blast (if going mainly for shield tree) since the dot will prevent people from tapping he turrets in the alderan warfront, does more damage and enables to use HIB.

 

Currently all talents that require 10+ point spent in one tree, are pretty similar attractive to take. (more or less) Also the 31 Talents are not that great to clearly deny to spend more points in other trees.

[Ranelagh]

Looking at Torhead and Fire Pulse at the top of the Tactics tree I am having trouble seeing how it is so good compared to other attacks. What am I missing?

[Kesrik]

And your arguments are.... oh right, there are none

 

Example: For pvp Gut is clearly better than Enegry blast (if going mainly for shield tree) since the dot will prevent people from tapping he turrets in the alderan warfront, does more damage and enables to use HIB.

 

Currently all talents that require 10+ point spent in one tree, are pretty similar attractive to take. (more or less) Also the 31 Talents are not that great to clearly deny to spend more points in other trees.

 

I'm not going to post my argument against hybrid specs in every single thread. All you have to do is check any one of the dozen or so "Rate my spec!" threads to see my argument. Gut is NOT better than Energy Blast. It does sub-par damage for it's heat cost, and you lose out on one of your ammo generating abilities. What this means is you will constantly be starved for ammo. Taking Energy Blast means you will do more damage overrall.

 

As far as stopping the cap, Stock strike already adds a 9 second dot to the target. However, you are much better off using your aoes every few seconds on top of the objective rather than relying on dots. At higher levels (yes, I know you've never been past level 20), all classes that have a healing tree recieve a dispel that removes 2 tech effects. They can simply dispel themselves and keep tapping.

[Ermo]

I'm not going to post my argument against hybrid specs in every single thread. All you have to do is check any one of the dozen or so "Rate my spec!" threads to see my argument. Gut is NOT better than Energy Blast. It does sub-par damage for it's heat cost, and you lose out on one of your ammo generating abilities. What this means is you will constantly be starved for ammo. Taking Energy Blast means you will do more damage overrall.

That may be true for some situations where you will run out of ammo. (Raids, Group PvP). In single pvp or pve you rarely need further ammo since either the enemy or you are dead. Additionally Energy blast has 15 secs cooldown, Gut none but can be used for HIB.

So if you aim for High-End gaming with a used group, yes, hybrid specs will not make you happy. For everyone else who wants to enjoy the game they are abvious a good alternative to 31 points talents.

 

 

As far as stopping the cap, Stock strike already adds a 9 second dot to the target. However, you are much better off using your aoes every few seconds on top of the objective rather than relying on dots. At higher levels (yes, I know you've never been past level 20), all classes that have a healing tree recieve a dispel that removes 2 tech effects. They can simply dispel themselves and keep tapping.

Stock strike has also a cooldown. E.g. you can tab an enemy every 9 seconds with a dot. Using gut, you can double this. Even if all healing classes can remove it, these are only 3 of 8! classes, and not everyone will always have time to spend 1,5 sec for removing a single dot that can be re-applied without any cd... Btw. cleaning effects are not cheap to use too.

[Kesrik]

That may be true for some situations where you will run out of ammo. (Raids, Group PvP). In single pvp or pve you rarely need further ammo since either the enemy or you are dead. Additionally Energy blast has 15 secs cooldown, Gut none but can be used for HIB.

So if you aim for High-End gaming with a used group, yes, hybrid specs will not make you happy. For everyone else who wants to enjoy the game they are abvious a good alternative to 31 points talents.

 

If you are casual, you could honestly run around as 0/0/0 and still be alright. There is no point asking people to "rate my build." Also, I'm not sure how you are playing a Vanguard, but I have yet to feel like I don't need more ammo in 1v1. Most 1v1 fights will more than 30 seconds - 1 minute, depending what CDs I have. More ammo is always better.

 

Stock strike has also a cooldown. E.g. you can tab an enemy every 9 seconds with a dot. Using gut, you can double this. Even if all healing classes can remove it, these are only 3 of 8! classes, and not everyone will always have time to spend 1,5 sec for removing a single dot that can be re-applied without any cd... Btw. cleaning effects are not cheap to use too.

 

First of all, a Commando's cleanse is 1 ammo. Gut is 2 ammo. If someone is a AC that has a healing tree (Commando, Sage, Scoundrel), they will be able to remove your dot. This is even if they are specced for DPS. A skilled player will always cleanse themselves before attempting to retap a node. If you are going to assume that you opponents are all garbage, then the point is moot.

[Ermo]

If you are casual, you could honestly run around as 0/0/0 and still be alright. There is no point asking people to "rate my build." Also, I'm not sure how you are playing a Vanguard, but I have yet to feel like I don't need more ammo in 1v1. Most 1v1 fights will more than 30 seconds - 1 minute, depending what CDs I have. More ammo is always better.

I don't know how you played PvP, but I had rarely 1 on 1 fights for 30 secs or more without anyone added to the fight (which lead to me having time for generating ammo again or to be death) Also during this 30 sec you generate 2! ammo with the skill since 15 sec cd...

You seem not to like casuals (whoever you count to this), but you should know that the most people in the game will be "casuals". I did also not ask for "rate my build" but did notice some speciality of the assault tree.

The idea of trees is still to give the players variation how they can play a character. Some people have fun playing hybrid specs, so whats wrong with that? Every spec has pros and cons, and its on each own player to decide.

 

 

First of all, a Commando's cleanse is 1 ammo. Gut is 2 ammo. If someone is a AC that has a healing tree (Commando, Sage, Scoundrel), they will be able to remove your dot. This is even if they are specced for DPS. A skilled player will always cleanse themselves before attempting to retap a node. If you are going to assume that you opponents are all garbage, then the point is moot.

If you assume that all of your oponents are skilled, then your point is moot. Especially now after the game has just started and the minortiy of players will play a "healer" AC. But even if they do cleanse the dot, they spend additional time and need to do an action. Therefore I gain already an additional cd. I can also wait for the cleanse and redo a dot by Stockstrike or another skill.

[Kesrik]

I don't know how you played PvP, but I had rarely 1 on 1 fights for 30 secs or more without anyone added to the fight (which lead to me having time for generating ammo again or to be death) Also during this 30 sec you generate 2! ammo with the skill since 15 sec cd...

 

I've had 1 minute fights vs. 2 enemies at the same time simply by staying behind the melee, and line of sighting the ranged at the same time. It happens a lot on Alderaan when I end up solo defending a node, and no one on my team reinforces when I call incs.

 

You seem not to like casuals (whoever you count to this), but you should know that the most people in the game will be "casuals". I did also not ask for "rate my build" but did notice some speciality of the assault tree.

The idea of trees is still to give the players variation how they can play a character. Some people have fun playing hybrid specs, so whats wrong with that? Every spec has pros and cons, and its on each own player to decide.

 

I don't "dislike" casual players, I just don't see the need for them to discuss talent builds. It's like Prius owners talking about the merits of turbo charging their engine. Using the argument that "I'm casual and I just want to have fun, so my talent build is fine" is pretty invalid. We are theory crafting maximum efficiency/effectiveness, not "fun."

 

If you assume that all of your oponents are skilled, then your point is moot. Especially now after the game has just started and the minortiy of players will play a "healer" AC. But even if they do cleanse the dot, they spend additional time and need to do an action. Therefore I gain already an additional cd. I can also wait for the cleanse and redo a dot by Stockstrike or another skill.

 

On The Crucible Pits - US PvP West, every single Warzone I queue is vs. a Dara Mactire premade with healers. Now obviously, they aren't the best (no fake casting, horrible positioning so they get switched to, etc), but they are at least competent enough to cleanse debuffs before attempting to tap an objective. If you assume that everyone you face is a scrub, then there is no need to plan or theory craft. Just mash buttons and outskill them.

[cmsileo]

Just want to say that if you are relying on gut to proc for HIB and you're a shield spec, then your doing something horribly wrong. Gut is only needed in tactic spec w/ high energy cell since they can't proc a dot from ion cell or plasma and have no additional CC such as storm.

 

In my limited PVP experience so far I have rarely had a time where i couldn't cast HIB on someone. And if I couldnt I was only a stockstrike away from being able to.