Muzan-E Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm for any additional tool that makes hours of playing less of a strain, doesn't promote cheating and doesn't force dev into reinventing everything just to keep up. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleinar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I`d quite like a way to measure my own dps/hps. If nothing else just to see how to get the best out of my character. I am not sure I would like Bioware to spend time making one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBigley Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) tools are nice but like macros they do the work for you I don't know how the topic mutated into general game mods, but we're talking about recount. I agree with your post, but this statement here isn't relevant to recount as we currently have no way to assess someone's performance unless they speak up and say "my bad". Speaking from a 'raiding' standpoint; If you come up against a boss that you simply cannot beat because one player is performing poorly due to, lets say, a poor rotation then how can you pinpoint the problem and improve upon it? Normally you would sub them out for someone who can perform better, or you help them improve. I don't support DBM or something like that, as that kind of mod does play the game for you, but something like recount isn't used for those purposes. It's simply a measure of performance that you otherwise have no way of determining with the games current model. Unfortunately it can be abused in the "Your dps sucks, get out" manner. But hey, if your dps sucks because you just need to learn a few things still, or your gear isn't strong enough for the encounter then it's best not to hold the group back and instead focus on getting better. Or would you prefer wiping on a boss for weeks because 2 of your 8 don't actually know how to play and no one knows they need help, not even them? Edited January 10, 2012 by MrBigley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Even if I only ever played solo, didn't raid or do Flashpoints ever and never PvPed - in fact, if I turned off chat permenantly and played as though this were KotOR 3, I'd still want to have the tools to perfect my gameplay. Why? Because I enjoy mathematics, I enjoy working out my rotation, I enjoy perfecting my arts. I'm just as much a min/maxer in Skyrim as I am in WoW. Because it's something I enjoy doing. I have a min/max save on Final Fantasy VI on my GBA - likely nobody will ever even see it, but I did it because, for me, part of the fun of an RPG is getting the most out of its mechanics. For me, tools to work out the best way to approach something (or, even better, to give you the data to come up with a new way or to evaluate things you experiment with) add to the game in a huge way. So please, don't say they add nothing to the game when for me and a great many others, they add a whole bunch. I adore you. I'd even endorse personal meters in this game that cannot be shared and are personal feedback only. Eliminates the e-peen complaints and gives me my needed data! Edited January 10, 2012 by Spynnal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhusOfEpirus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 no question recount is valuable tool, and if anybody has any real aspirations of people being excited about this games endgame and potential world firsts and all that jazz that helps make wow raiding popular, you have to have some mods in the game. i want to know that the guys standing next to me know how to play, that after wiping 10 times to a boss, and seeing that a certain person is doing garbage damage, or garbage healing, i want to know so i can remove them. the only people who dont like recount are bad players. if your a decent or better player, nobody kicks you out of groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidkjames Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I personally couldn't care less either way. A simple combat log is really all that is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guided_by_voices Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would love to see zero outside addons. if the devs can develop a way to customize the UI so you can move the interface around that would be great, but i can live with what they've given us. Addons like recount or deadly boss mods (DBM) that make defeating encounters easier should not be implemented. look what happened to wow. As soon as you allow addons the devs will be forced to considered those addons when developing future encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't know how the topic mutated into general game mods, but we're talking about recount. I agree with your post, but this statement here isn't relevant to recount as we currently have no way to assess someone's performance unless they speak up and say "my bad". Speaking from a 'raiding' standpoint; If you come up against a boss that you simply cannot beat because one player is performing poorly due to, lets say, a poor rotation then how can you pinpoint the problem and improve upon it? Normally you would sub them out for someone who can perform better, or you help them improve. I don't support DBM or something like that, as that kind of mod does play the game for you, but something like recount isn't used for those purposes. It's simply a measure of performance that you otherwise have no way of determining with the games current model. Unfortunately it can be abused in the "Your dps sucks, get out" manner. But hey, if your dps sucks because you just need to learn a few things still, or your gear isn't strong enough for the encounter then it's best not to hold the group back and instead focus on getting better. Or would you prefer wiping on a boss for weeks because 2 of your 8 don't actually know how to play and no one knows they need help, not even them? If you can, think about gaming before dps meters and compare the community to those with dps meters.... You can blame it on 12 year olds but meters seem to give people reason to act like 12 year olds ... play the game, dont let it play for you or give reason to have to use certain rotations for max dps. Have fun.... thats what gaming is about... and this is an amazing story ..... as for boss wiping.... learn to do it as a group... dont use guides which are cheats to strategy... giving you information you would not have earned by trial and error..... yea it takes longer but then you do it and you have pride.... why have everything handed to you? thats not fun and you have no pride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tukatma Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I support the use of tools like a recount, whether they be in game or an addon. The purpose for me isn't for pointing out that fellow group members are slacking off, or to prove that my DPS or healing skills are better than someone else. This type of tool is very useful to optimize my play; change up my rotation, evaluate different abilities damage output against certain type of mods. Sure I can jump on any number of sites where people tell you the best spec to be, and what to cast when; but I'd much rather find out for myself with raw data. I can follow a map someone draws for me to get to a location, but feel it is much more fun to draw the path I take myself. Its a benchmarking process, just because some use it for purposes that can be seen as "Cheating" or having a 1 up doesn't mean that's what everyone uses it for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would love to see zero outside addons. if the devs can develop a way to customize the UI so you can move the interface around that would be great, but i can live with what they've given us. Addons like recount or deadly boss mods (DBM) that make defeating encounters easier should not be implemented. look what happened to wow. As soon as you allow addons the devs will be forced to considered those addons when developing future encounters. yup and then the community tears itself apart... then you get dungeon finder and the commuity as a whole suffers even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DredWes Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 no question recount is valuable tool, and if anybody has any real aspirations of people being excited about this games endgame and potential world firsts and all that jazz that helps make wow raiding popular, you have to have some mods in the game. i want to know that the guys standing next to me know how to play, that after wiping 10 times to a boss, and seeing that a certain person is doing garbage damage, or garbage healing, i want to know so i can remove them. the only people who dont like recount are bad players. if your a decent or better player, nobody kicks you out of groups. If you can't ID the person not pulling their weight in a group without re-count, I submit you are the bad player. The reason I see people using meters is to get max dps so they don't have to do anything in the fight except pew pew. essentially turing every fight into patchwerk. yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I support the use of tools like a recount, whether they be in game or an addon. The purpose for me isn't for pointing out that fellow group members are slacking off, or to prove that my DPS or healing skills are better than someone else. This type of tool is very useful to optimize my play; change up my rotation, evaluate different abilities damage output against certain type of mods. Sure I can jump on any number of sites where people tell you the best spec to be, and what to cast when; but I'd much rather find out for myself with raw data. I can follow a map someone draws for me to get to a location, but feel it is much more fun to draw the path I take myself. Its a benchmarking process, just because some use it for purposes that can be seen as "Cheating" or having a 1 up doesn't mean that's what everyone uses it for. if for personal use... would you mid if you can only see your information or do you have a need for everyone elses.... the main argument is that the data on other players brings about harassment that many of us are tired of seeing If you can't ID the person not pulling their weight in a group without re-count, I submit you are the bad player. The reason I see people using meters is to get max dps so they don't have to do anything in the fight except pew pew. essentially turing every fight into patchwerk. yawn. AMEN ! its getting to bot like and we might as well sit back and judge eachother on our computers ability to play the game for us. woot my pc is faster.... booooring Edited January 10, 2012 by Gummiebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guided_by_voices Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 no question recount is valuable tool, and if anybody has any real aspirations of people being excited about this games endgame and potential world firsts and all that jazz that helps make wow raiding popular, you have to have some mods in the game. i want to know that the guys standing next to me know how to play, that after wiping 10 times to a boss, and seeing that a certain person is doing garbage damage, or garbage healing, i want to know so i can remove them. the only people who dont like recount are bad players. if your a decent or better player, nobody kicks you out of groups. i'll argue that the only people who want them are too lazy to figure things out for themselves. Go back to wow then and have your epeen stroked there. Lets those of us here to play the game ourselves play this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 if for personal use... would you mid if you can only see your information or do you have a need for everyone elses.... the main argument is that the data on other players brings about harassment that many of us are tired of seeing You'll split the pro-camp here. Some like to use meters for raid betterment. Some for personal betterment. I'm of the latter camp. I don't care if they only show you your own data, aren't linkable, and can't be screenshot. I still like them for personal tweaks and betterment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't know how the topic mutated into general game mods, <snip>I don't support DBM or something like that, as that kind of mod does play the game for you,Because people make false comments like this in passing. DBM doesn't play the game for you. No addon in wow does. If you're primarily concerned about the fact that an 3rd program is making the game easier (and by this I mean, pointing out things that are already known in game, just with a bad comparatively interface), you need to start your crusade with ventrillo... it's by far the biggest offended on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you can't ID the person not pulling their weight in a group without re-count, I submit you are the bad player.No, there are fights where I literally can't see the dps, let alone see them well enough to know how much damage they are doing. The reason I see people using meters is to get max dps so they don't have to do anything in the fight except pew pew. essentially turing every fight into patchwerk. yawn.Meters don't allow that ... not even a little bit. If you think that, you're delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 if for personal use... would you mid if you can only see your information or do you have a need for everyone elses.... the main argument is that the data on other players brings about harassment that many of us are tired of seeing AMEN ! its getting to bot like and we might as well sit back and judge eachother on our computers ability to play the game for us. woot my pc is faster.... booooring Self only is a good idea, however the point is moot because they have already announced a combat log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i'll argue that the only people who want them are too lazy to figure things out for themselves. Go back to wow then and have your epeen stroked there. Lets those of us here to play the game ourselves play this one. There is an awful lot of math when choosing like 30 talents out of a possible 90. Factor gear on top of that. I'd really like to see the guy who can, on the fly, tell me that shaving 2 points off the tree here, coupled with gear X, will produce Y change, given a certain rotation. And before you copy/paste your e-peen rant, I asked for personal meters, that can't be linked. So tell me how that helps ego stroke anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i'll argue that the only people who want them are too lazy to figure things out for themselves. Go back to wow then and have your epeen stroked there. Lets those of us here to play the game ourselves play this one. this isnt wow.... its swtor.... I like what you said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) You'll split the pro-camp here. Some like to use meters for raid betterment. Some for personal betterment. I'm of the latter camp. I don't care if they only show you your own data, aren't linkable, and can't be screenshot. I still like them for personal tweaks and betterment. yea thats why if implemented it should be group leader only and server side then if you wanted personal benchmark make a party of just you and solo lead it for your own use.... but in raids its the maturity of the group leader in charge of data. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gummiebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you can't ID the person not pulling their weight in a group without re-count, I submit you are the bad player. The reason I see people using meters is to get max dps so they don't have to do anything in the fight except pew pew. essentially turing every fight into patchwerk. yawn. I was in a PUG doing a quest the other day. Not a heroic, just sharing the kills. We come up on a Champion and engage. As he approaches half health, I get removed from the group. I ask '***?' They reply, "It looked like you were just standing there not attacking." I'm a combat medic. I was healing, and my primary heal animations look like me trying to make a phone call in a storm followed by a droid appearing from the sky far away from me. I was also using hammer shot and auto-fire, but as only half my rotation it must have looked like I was barely performing when I was actually doing an action every GCD. If he had an in-game activity/performance monitor, he would have known I was contributing. Meters have positive uses as well as the negative people have used them for in WoW. Bioware should add in a useful performance meter players can enable to check their performance and see what stats need changing. (missing a lot, add accuracy, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DredWes Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The reason I see people using meters is to get max dps so they don't have to do anything in the fight except pew pew. essentially turing every fight into patchwerk. yawn. Meters don't allow that ... not even a little bit. If you think that, you're delusional. I stand by my original assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Right no, that's not true, you clearly haven't done nightmare, it not only tells me who does low dps, it doesn't have to be a keyboard turner to not know your rotation or how to gear or spec. It also shows balance, see what classes aren't balanced, for example too much too little dps, if one is sig lower or higher than the rest. We might also want to send more gear pieces someone's way, or help them learn their class, or god forbid they're too bad or dumb, they'd just have to sit til they aren't. Shrug. Mainly it helps see balance though. And why shouldn't dps who try and do their best be rewarded or aknowledged? Honestly. I definatley hear your argument and actually agree. My proplem is not with recount itself rather the majority and how they utilize it. I know people like you have good intentions and do want some form of recognition, nothing wrong with that, but I don't think recount is the answer to that. Maybe something can be done by bioware like the pvp trophy system, where after flashpoints awards can be given out based on each player participation? Also I am not sure that using recount as a way to judge class balance is viable at all. I see your point but bioware as a multi million dollar matrix software program that can do this way better then recount and forum QQers. Which is what u will get when ppl see there recount position. Edited January 10, 2012 by Irishbrewed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There is an awful lot of math when choosing like 30 talents out of a possible 90. Factor gear on top of that. I'd really like to see the guy who can, on the fly, tell me that shaving 2 points off the tree here, coupled with gear X, will produce Y change, given a certain rotation. And before you copy/paste your e-peen rant, I asked for personal meters, that can't be linked. So tell me how that helps ego stroke anything. personal meters work... and in group a group leader can have group data.... that works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) yea thats why if implemented it should be group leader only and server side then if you wanted personal benchmark make a party of just you and solo lead it for your own use.... but in raids its the maturity of the group leader in charge of data. I'd honestly just like them for personal output, healing and dps. There are a lot of talents, and a lot of interplay, and I'll admit, I learned in <gasp> other MMO's, that trying things out and testing them can surprise you. Some synergies of talents mesh REALLY well where you wouldn't suspect it. Meters just help in seeing that sometimes, if you're trying to test stuff out. Like someone else said, I'd be fine with personal meters only, with no sharing. Helps me improve, negates the whole ego/epeen/others argument. Edited January 10, 2012 by Spynnal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts