Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Hy_C]

still don't see any good reasons why people think they need a recount type tool.

 

As I said before in the previous thread. When I'm doing Nightmare mode I want people to be pulling their weight, I don't want slackers in my raid.

[Vercasius]

Nope, no add-ons please. If the instances get so difficult that an average player (that is paying attention) isn't welcome, then the game is doomed anyway.

 

There are far, far too few extreme hardcore to support this game so making normal players feel inadequate, and therefore have them quit, is just plain bad business.

 

We need more MMOs designed around twitch and FPS so these self-defined super players have a home so the rest of us can simply have fun and kill the baddies without too much stress.

 

I cant stress how wrong you are in every single sentence you have typed . And how disappointed you will be in a month or two. End content can only get harder. At this point it is so easy it hurts .

Add ons will come . It is a part of the game and always will be .

[DragonAgeOrgins]

What brand are your rose colored glasses? The boss fights in this game are laughably easier than WoW and WoW is already a joke.

 

Not beating on a giant's ankle? Ok, so instead of that we are just shooting the droid that sits still for us, or kiting another boss, or killing the healer of the boss first. I've had trash packs in WoW that were harder than actual bosses in this game. Do they have more health? Sure.

 

Bottom line is that addons can only really improve the experience. I'd rather be able to tell who the jerk is idling in the FlashPoint or not playing his class correctly. Calling people elitists for a bare-minimum afk-detector and "we couldn't kill the boss in time? Oh, let me check the meters. Oh, you weren't doing the right amount of Healing Per second or DPS? Let me try and help you fix that." How is that being elitist? I have trouble understanding why everyone thinks that a DPS meter is an elitist tool when I really have only used it to help improve people or find out who isn't doing their part.

 

If we don't have people who know what they're doing, and the community is fine with this, that's dangerous towards future content, where everything is a slap fest and any old player can do anything. Sure, you're paying 15 bucks a month to play, but there has to be some tiered content and gates for inexperienced players. I wouldn't want to live in a world where every boss is a 1 or 2 shot ordeal, because that's boring.

 

I just don't understand why people like you are so afraid of adding something that can only really improve the majority and due to a few outliers who use it as a tool to kick you (newsflash: if you do something wrong in real life or don't do your job, you get fired or replaced).

 

I just don't think it's right to be fencing off potentially fun and difficult encounters because people can't do their jobs and no one can detect if someone is doing what they're supposed to. It's really not fair to the supposed "1 million subscribers."

 

I am against it because it promotes people copy and pasting the same cookie cutter build for the exact same talent build as other. That's boring and bland. I don't want to be linked to a website for MAX DPS. Those other talent point's were put there for a reason.

 

I'm not scared of it. I think of it as a weak tool for people to use that don't know how to tell what the problem is in doing a raid so they need to pull up DPS. Maybe the problem is something other then burning him down. But you use your rose colored glass to say this will improve the game.

 

HA. It improves people being an *** to each other. It improves the people limited from joining a group based on DPS. It improves people being an elite to other people. It is a poison and it will slowly kill the game. Rift allowed paser's boom..it went down. If the fine company want paying customer's for a casually realxed game. They will not allow this.

[Chosenxeno]

This comes from a Wow player that raided for 2 years all the way from Uldar to Firelands. I raided with a good guild and we managed to be in the Top 100 US 25 man Guilds, might not be that great but we all felt we had accomplished something. I was a DPS Wh ore thru my raiding career and being top 10 was not enough so i always wanted to be in the top 5 bracket and sometimes i managed 1st place encounter dependent.

 

However as much as i loved recount and how i could see my numbers, raiding became more than just a game, it became stressful due to the numbers. Nobody likes to be the last one on a chart so even if you don't have a competitive attitude having a chart like recount will make most if not all the players to focus on the numbers rather than the encounter itself. How many times have we seen people getting the so known "TUNNEL VISSION" syndrome just because they gotta push for the max dps on a specific fight making them almost forget mechanics and stuff.

 

If we see some sort of Recount on this game i would like it to be something that will show only your own performance without having to compare yourself to the rest of the group which is what creates in my opinion all the problems.

 

Just my personal opinion.

 

No one cares who is last on the meter in a Raid if the boss is dead. It's when the boss is not dying that this becomes an issue. If you played WOW than you know that certain classes will out DPS others. It's also understood that Players doing more utilitarian things are not going to top.

 

If you had 3 hunters and 2 of them are in the top 3 but one is at the bottom, Then recount will expose that. IMO only the people that have been hunter number 3 are the ones that are anti-addon.

 

You claim you were top 100 and blah blah blah but your comments and stance do not back up that claim.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Vercasius]

Its funny how all you people give this drama about comparing with others and ruining the fun etc etc etc .

 

Newsflash people : You are being compared to other people for lesser or greater things since the day you were born . Suck it up , get real and instead of moaning try getting better.

[Konkordium]

This thread is overrun with Bads that want to be carried. Please god let them put in Meters. I will kick you without hesitation. I will not apologize. You will be better for it. Ultimately, you will thank me. For I have made you a better player, and a credit to your server.

 

 

EXACTLY the type of Elitist attitude that any sort of recount meter will lead to. The biggest problem with ANY mmo is the attitude that 'if you are not as good as I am, I don't want you on my team.'

 

I don't care who you are, how long you been playing, what kind of gear you have or what your dps is, we ALL we're newbs at some time, we ALL did that raid for the first time and we ALL had crappy gear once.

 

Put a meter in for each player to monitor their own dps, heals or whatever, that way, if that player wants, they can seek out help improving. It is not my place or anyone else's to decide who is a good player and who is not

[Vercasius]

Cant help but notice that republic players are the ones that dont want add ons .

[Chosenxeno]

EXACTLY the type of Elitist attitude that any sort of recount meter will lead to. The biggest problem with ANY mmo is the attitude that 'if you are not as good as I am, I don't want you on my team.'

 

I don't care who you are, how long you been playing, what kind of gear you have or what your dps is, we ALL we're newbs at some time, we ALL did that raid for the first time and we ALL had crappy gear once.

 

Put a meter in for each player to monitor their own dps, heals or whatever, that way, if that player wants, they can seek out help improving. It is not my place or anyone else's to decide who is a good player and who is not

 

 

LOL I knew that that would Troll someone:) That was like super duper Elitist lol

[Chosenxeno]

Cant help but notice that republic players are the ones that dont want add ons .

 

Republic Scoundrel at your service

[phaeze]

It is not my place or anyone else's to decide who is a good player and who is not

If a player is leading nightmare operation, you bet your *** it's their place to decide who is a good player and who is not. I'm not sure about you, but running flashpoints/operations with subpar players is a very frustrating experience. Right now, unless you're a tank or a healer there is absolutely no way to determine who is and isn't carrying their weight. The importance of an ingame DPS meter is even higher because as far as I can tell, EVERY single hardmode and above boss in the game has a hard enrage timer.

 

If raiding is going to be taken seriously in SWTOR, Recount is vital.

[PjPablo]

EXACTLY the type of Elitist attitude that any sort of recount meter will lead to. The biggest problem with ANY mmo is the attitude that 'if you are not as good as I am, I don't want you on my team.'

 

I don't care who you are, how long you been playing, what kind of gear you have or what your dps is, we ALL we're newbs at some time, we ALL did that raid for the first time and we ALL had crappy gear once.

 

Put a meter in for each player to monitor their own dps, heals or whatever, that way, if that player wants, they can seek out help improving. It is not my place or anyone else's to decide who is a good player and who is not

 

It absolutely is ok for you to decide who a good player is or not. If you are a GL or Class Lead in a progression guild its your JOB.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong with being new and inexperienced. We all have been there. Its the folks that want to play in a group who refuse to take steps to improve and bring down the enjoyment of others where I see an issue. As soon as you join a MMO and group within said MMO you are no longer playing as an individual. You now have the ability to negatively impact my gaming experience and with that comes responsibility.

 

I for one would like to have all the data I can get to decide whether I or others are responsible for negatively impacting others through poor play. Addons give me that data. Its going to happen anyway (people calling others out) I would just prefer it's based on hard data rather than what someone thinks they see.

[datunderdog]

No one cares who is last on the meter in a Raid if the boss is dead. It's when the boss is not dying that this becomes an issue. If you played WOW than you know that certain classes will out DPS others. It's also understood that Players doing more utilitarian things are not going to top.

 

If you had 3 hunters and 2 of them are in the top 3 but one is at the bottom, Then recount will expose that. IMO only the people that have been hunter number 3 are the ones that are anti-addon.

 

You claim you were top 100 and blah blah blah but your comments and stance do not back up that claim.

 

Actually his comments do prove his stance.

 

If you strive to be the best, you have to deal with the pressure that comes with it. If you are in a top 100 guild to begin with, and you personally won't settle for less than top 5 in your raid, then you aren't going to treat the game the same way as the guy who wants to ride cruise control and play lore and maybe pvp twice a week.

 

The addons will ruin the game argument is obstinate and invalid.

 

"Your too stupid and irresponsible to enter into this university"

 

"No im not! I didn't take the ACT or SAT because I DONT NEED THEM, and they ruin college life anyways"

 

"Your child is too short to ride this ride ma'am."

 

"Well how do you know? You don't have a ruler to lord over us? Let him on."

 

or...

 

"Sir your car doesn't make the power you will be competing with if you enter your car into this class, I suggest a lower class."

 

"Sure it does, we don't need a dyno to tell us that, besides racing is all about the experience and not power"

 

All I did was apply the logic to different arguments, and you can see it clearly fails.

 

Damage meter even for personal use is just a tool, how people use it is something entirely different and should be treated as such.

[ICarriere]

Let me start;

 

1 - I just bought the game and am in the process of downloading.

 

2 - I have enough raid experience with WoW to feel that I still have an opinion.

 

I don't see the big problem with using damage meters, etc for raids. My guild used them all the time, but they weren't used to hand out loot, kick people out of the raid, etc. There was very little 'bragging', etc as well. The only time they may have come into play was if we had more people online than we needed, and we were attempting new content for the first time and wanted our best dpsers / healers in the raid. But to be honest, we typically knew who those people were anyway.

 

The fear of "elitist backlash" seems silly to me. If a group of elitist's form a guild/group, they will be basing top dpsers/healers much more subjectively than if they had a recount mod. Somebody with better gear who has no clue what they are doing could get into the group instead of somebody with modest gear who plays their class well and understands their role. In other words, elitists will find a way to rank people, one way or the other. At least with a damage meter it's fact based, not guesswork.

 

To me the key with WoW was finding a good, fun group to roll with. Some of us used damage/threat meters, and one of our main tanks never touched a threat meter and did just fine. Someone usually posted stats after a fight, but we didn't have huge p!ssing contests about it either.

[knightblaster]

That depends on how mad they get when I paste their damage.

 

I think I gave this one anti-meter guy a heart attack in Rift when I used the external real-time parser and a little "Ctr-V" action. He was all like **** this, I quit, etc. It was fun, and he was mad bro.

 

And there's Exhibit A. People like you will use tools like this to grief other players -- sadism enabled by the developers, essentially.

 

No way I support this at all.

[anwar]

I cant stress how wrong you are in every single sentence you have typed . And how disappointed you will be in a month or two. End content can only get harder. At this point it is so easy it hurts .

Add ons will come . It is a part of the game and always will be .

 

Then the game will hit it's stagnation point that much sooner...it's a shame, but as soon as you have super-geared hardcore established, you see new players dwindle and attrition esculate. Once new blood gets way below the normal attrition it'll become ftp and servers need merging and less money is put into the game.

 

I'd prefer to see a few unhappy extreme hardcore and have this game be vigorous for a few more years.

[krinaman]

This topic has been beaten to death and no one is going to change their opinions but here's my $.02

 

 

Meters can be useful. Although I've done just fine without them and found other ways to measure my relative DPS without them. I.E. how fast can I kill 10 mobs, etc.

 

On the other hand I've experienced enough negative garbage along with meters that hopefully I never see them again.

 

Players get caught up in the "DPS contest". Being on top is all that matters. Hitting that magical mark that the forums declared as "good" DPS is all that matters. CCing, not pulling agro, etc. all fall to the wayside.

 

A perfect example of this is this time we were doing a raid in WoW. We are on the boss and the raid leader says give the tanks a few seconds to establish agro. Fight starts, DPS pulls agro .1 seconds in and we wipe. Leader says, ok WAIT A COUPLE SECONDS so the tanks can get agro. We start and again the guy pulls agro and wipes us. The whole raid yells wait a couple seconds and the guy does it a third time. Finally the whole raid is like *** and the guy says that if he doesn't start right away he won't hit the magic DPS number the forums says the fight requires.

 

I've seen it time and time again. Read the WoW forums sometime and read the posts from tanks sick of DPS blowing all their CD's at the start of the fight to top the meters.

 

I've gotten "helpful hints" from players when I just hit level cap and had no gear because I wasn't putting up geared numbers. Heck, I had a tank drop group because I was only putting up better than average numbers and his buddy claimed I could do double that in green gear. Nevermind we were rolling through the content like a hot knife through butter.

 

I know, this is where I'm told not to play with these people. To somehow find this mystical guild where I never have to pug and every player is good and never does any of the bad stuff. But then, some of us live in the real world where we seen it every day.

 

I also realize that it's not the meters it's the people. The problem is that there is no avoiding the people who misuse the meters. But I can compromise, you can have meters if I can get all gear (including the top raid gear) solo. That way I can avoid the idiots with meters.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

The community in this game matter's the most. If they are dived in a game. Making it optional is not going to help it. I love when people say "It's a tool used to improve my DPS, that all" ....no. It's something that will be used to verbally assault other player's. OPEN YOUR EYES. Warcraft has the worst community in gaming history. It is lead because of Gear Score. Recount. All these thing's. People are horrible.

 

Are people having trouble doing flash point's now? No. Is everyone doing what they should? Yes. Then why fix something that's not broken. ..I played everquest, one of the greatest community. They did NOT have recount, gear score and they were FINE. It is a crutch for the weak.

 

It's for people who do not want to be self aware. I can tell you exactly who's doing what based on what I see around you. Anyone who say's they need recount is lying. Besides their are several bosses at once. It's not a single. Several, meaning more then one. Not standing in place for 40 minutes.

 

This game is fine without it. Leave enough alone.

[Chosenxeno]

Actually his comments do prove his stance.

 

If you strive to be the best, you have to deal with the pressure that comes with it. If you are in a top 100 guild to begin with, and you personally won't settle for less than top 5 in your raid, then you aren't going to treat the game the same way as the guy who wants to ride cruise control and play lore and maybe pvp twice a week.

 

The addons will ruin the game argument is obstinate and invalid.

 

"Your too stupid and irresponsible to enter into this university"

 

"No im not! I didn't take the ACT or SAT because I DONT NEED THEM, and they ruin college life anyways"

 

"Your child is too short to ride this ride ma'am."

 

"Well how do you know? You don't have a ruler to lord over us? Let him on."

 

or...

 

"Sir your car doesn't make the power you will be competing with if you enter your car into this class, I suggest a lower class."

 

"Sure it does, we don't need a dyno to tell us that, besides racing is all about the experience and not power"

 

All I did was apply the logic to different arguments, and you can see it clearly fails.

 

Damage meter even for personal use is just a tool, how people use it is something entirely different and should be treated as such.

 

Well I get the Pressure thing to a certain Degree. I was expected to top for Heals every Raid(Resto Druid for 6 years) If I didn't top I definitely got whispers. Not Angry whispers. People wondering if I was OK lol. Even the other Healers were a bit more reliant on me. Despite the fun I am having here sounding Elitist, i've never acted that way. We were a team. I would also work to improve them. They were also more likely to link my healing on the meter than I was:)

 

The difference is I embraced those pressures. I'll admit that there were some nights where I may have wanted a break but, I knew that boss "X" would probably not go down if I wasn't in raid.

[Fria]

Well , the fact is all the info recount ( or whatever they will call it for swtor ) add on gives is vital in identifying if a player is underperforming or not . Its not like the awful gearscore add on which appeared in WoW a year ago and caused a lot of drama on forums and servers.

 

To be honest I wouldnt want to carry around some guy which is underperforming ( doesnt know how to play his class efficiently - hasnt spent as much time as me getting to know it )just because he can hide due to the lack of actual numbers speaking the truth .

 

Moreover , recount add on cant be compared to add ons like DBM . I also agree that add ons like DBM made raiding really easier and that Blizzard after some time started to design Raid encounters having in mind that raiders would have DBM installed therefore implementing features in raids . which would be nearly impossible to counter if you didnt have DBM.

 

Recount just shows facts.It shows whos dpsing good enough , whos interrupting , whos taking unnecessary damage . Facts that can pretty much make people in operations and fps notice whos the weakest link .

 

In my opinion the majority of people against recount are just afraid of the snowball effect this will have . The game will no longer be a nice Fable like RPG where we all lay back and enjoy the story the lore and do some fps and ops for the giggles. Thing is people will have to really pump up their game . Seek out forums for theorycrafting and best combos / talents / specialization . This is a MMORPG and people should start seeing that.

 

Competition is a part of the game . So are elitist jerks / polite players / bad players / flamers .

An add on wont "ruin" the fun of the game . These types of gamers will exist no matter if recount gets implemented or not .

The only thing that will change is that at least now there will be some numbers and facts that can give a fairly established opinion about a players performance .

 

 

Awesome post. I can't say how endgame is as I'm still enjoying leveling both my SI on one server, and my BH on another. I can say however say why even now, I'm not totally bought into the Recount bandwagon for TOR. I played WoW for a few years, and raiding was fun for the most part. I wasn't in the top raiding guild (as most of us aren't) nor was I in an extremely strict guild that absolutely required certain mods or else a bench was in order (DBM I think was the only mod our GL felt we absolutely needed).

 

Even though I was considered one of the core in our raiding group, it got super tedious, and fast. It was no longer about enjoying the group as it was pumping out the biggest number possible to for the betterment of my guild. I couldn't play the spec I wanted because I knew it wasn't the best I can do, not because anyone forced me. I felt bad that in not picking that "ultimate" spec for my class, I was being a hindrance and not giving my 110%. After all, the numbers spoke for themselves. I thankfully was never in the "do or die" position, but even then I felt pressure from myself to absolutely min/max.. even if I missed out on a talent point or two I thought would make the game more fun for me.

 

I suppose I did have an option to not use the addons, but I would rather be a team player. It doesn't even have to be a competition, it's simply common courtesy to be the absolute best you can be given the tools when it comes to anything in life. In this case, I felt the tools were too extreme and kept me from having the most fun, and sometimes even gave me performance anxiety. I don't think I would quit the game because of it, since I'm not one of those that were really affected by Recount in a way where I was excluded... but it's an option I'm happy to live without. I rather learn from my fellow players on why a certain rotation makes their life much easier, and sometimes even put to test my own theories... than go to a website and follow it to a tee because the numbers show that it's the absolute "correct" way to play, and use addons that make my gameplay better even if they aren't making me have any more fun, and sometimes even keep me from being completely immersed in the task at hand. Why? Because I always have that "goal" number in the back of my mind so that I could be the groups "MVP" for that particular fight, rather than focus on the true goal... to complete the task as a team.

 

There are a few other reasons. I'll probably make another post or two later and add them in, rather than make this post unnecessarily long.

[AlpsStranger]

And there's Exhibit A. People like you will use tools like this to grief other players -- sadism enabled by the developers, essentially.

 

No way I support this at all.

 

But how could I grief the anti-addon people? They're all geniuses with twelve inch ***** who do perfect rotations via the Force with no need for tools. They never stand in the fire and are the bedrock of the true elite of the MMO world. The meters would merely vindicate their awesomeness and expose me for the Wormtongue type figure that I must be.

 

I'm just a lousy griefing troll who can't play the game without crutches.

Edited January 8, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Chosenxeno]

Then the game will hit it's stagnation point that much sooner...it's a shame, but as soon as you have super-geared hardcore established, you see new players dwindle and attrition esculate. Once new blood gets way below the normal attrition it'll become ftp and servers need merging and less money is put into the game.

 

I'd prefer to see a few unhappy extreme hardcore and have this game be vigorous for a few more years.

 

I disagree. They will lose the "MMO of the Month" crowd that thinks that MMORPGs are Hack and Slash games or Dugeon crawlers. They are not. They are not built around grabbing a random group of people and going. They have more structure than that. Those People who want that kind of game should play the F2P Star Wars game and not a Triple A MMORPG imo.

 

Edit: As long as they pump out content "stagnation" is not a problem. It sure isn't a problem in WOW where addons have been used for years.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[ICarriere]

Damage meter even for personal use is just a tool, how people use it is something entirely different and should be treated as such.

 

EXACTLY!

 

Weather it's for personal or group use to me is irrelevant - how it's used is what is important.

 

If it's used to identify somebody AFK, or somebody who may need help with their rotation, then that's a good thing!

 

If it's used to determine who gets loot or kick people out of the group, then I would consider it "elitist", and I wouldn't want to be playing with that group anyways.

[atnasomus]

I prefer using recount for personal testing.

 

As a veteran WoW player, I would switch around Specs trying out new techniques, rotation, etc.

 

Having feedback on your performance allows you to enhance your performance.

 

 

I really can't stand that people think this is game breaking. I want to be a great asset to my group. I want to be playing the character to its maximum potential. Not having the data to make these judgments makes it an awfully obtuse task doesn't it?

[Chosenxeno]

I prefer using recount for personal testing.

 

As a veteran WoW player, I would switch around Specs trying out new techniques, rotation, etc.

 

Having feedback on your performance allows you to enhance your performance.

 

 

I really can't stand that people think this is game breaking. I want to be a great asset to my group. I want to be playing the character to its maximum potential. Not having the data to make these judgments makes it an awfully obtuse task doesn't it?

 

It's sooooooo much easier to make Addons the devil than to do this:)

[atnasomus]

reposted - woops Edited January 8, 2012 by atnasomus