Whats the PVP niche for Assasin?

[Cowflab]

i honestly think with this problem fixed our dpe would increase 20% and would make our dps on par or better than other dps classes

 

A 20% dmg increase with the amount of control we have would make assassins incredibly overpowered and everyone in game would be crying for nerfs. Learn to use the tools in your tool box. A bad craftsman blames his tools for his crappy work. A good craftsman makes masterpieces out of what's at his disposal.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Cowflab

[DeathHenk]

I didnt read all of this, but the first lines told me it was a whine post. Am I right?

[Robochomp]

I honestly don't know what our role is in PvP. We have FAR less burst than operatives, very little to no class synergy with stealth, and the lightest armor in the game if you aren't using Dark Charge. Our only strength is getting away from people. Why do we not have a good stealth opener? Spike is an absolute joke and fills way too much of the resolve bar for a 2 second knockdown.

 

In PvP, uptime on your target is not extremely high as a melee class. Sometimes you're going to be stunned or kited.

 

As a deception assassin, unlike concealment operatives, most of our abilities require too much setup to hit hard. Want Shock to hit hard? You have to voltaic slash twice. Want Discharge to hit hard? You have to build up surging charge stacks. Want Maul to hit hard? You have to get an exploit weakness proc. Couple this with limited uptime on targets, and you have yourselves a subpar group PvP class.

 

This is exactly why we aren't very strong in PvP right now.

 

I have been playing Madness spec and it has been good fun. From the multiple specs I have played the general consensus I have come up with is we are the "Take it for the team" class. We are the ones who help everyone else be effective longer, with timely mind and mass mind controls, our guard ability to help protect flag carriers and healers, our CC's when used in a timely matter buys a ton of time for healers to catch up or for a flag carrier to get away, consistent dps pressure through AoE's, dots, as well as our CC's and slows to help kill flag carriers and just enough abilities to sneak away and pick off some lower health targets, we can take out others 1v1 just takes a bit of patience.

 

We die a alot, but by doing all these things mentioned helps the team alot and is worth it IMO. I usually always get anywhere between 7-10 medals per WZ, finish within top 3 in damage on my side and rack up a ton of objective and protection points and I am not even level 50 yet, even get some mvp votes using this philosophy, just take it for the team

[Varatesh]

A 20% dmg increase with the amount of control we have would make assassins incredibly overpowered and everyone in game would be crying for nerds. Learn to use the tools in your tool box. A bad craftsman blames his tools for his crappy work. A good craftsman makes masterpieces out of what's at his disposal.

 

 

Agreed! That's why they should add 15% damage on all our skills instead of 20%

[Valtyr]

Tremk, if you're not happy with the class, reroll another one. I've been in a few different threads this afternoon and seen nothing but whining and complaining from you in all of them. No one is telling you that you HAVE to play an assassin. Not only that but it will give you a reputation on the forums as a cry baby and even if you ever did have a valid point or arguement, people will just write you off because of your previous ************.

 

This. I had to go back to various class forums to double check it was him. Sounds to me like he cannot choose a class because he is looking for the I WiN button.

[lethal_ghost]

A 20% dmg increase with the amount of control we have would make assassins incredibly overpowered and everyone in game would be crying for nerfs. Learn to use the tools in your tool box. A bad craftsman blames his tools for his crappy work. A good craftsman makes masterpieces out of what's at his disposal.

 

its a known problem with maul and assassinate BW are looking in to it

 

 

Agreed! That's why they should add 15% damage on all our skills instead of 20%

 

 

im not saying give us a buff, its that maul is bugged and only hits about 1 in 3 times and assissinate the same. With out these bugs i feel our damage would be around 20% higher, i dont even use maul no more hardle. I electruted some one went behind for maul and didnt get him once coz

Edited January 8, 2012 by lethal_ghost

[Cowflab]

its a known problem with maul and assassinate BW are looking in to it

 

Maul isn't the only ability at your disposal and deception is not the only spec you can use and prosper with in PvP. But if hitting your head against a brick wall with clunky broken mechanics is your thing, go ahead. Just don't make your problems everyone else's because you refuse to adapt for the time being.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Cowflab

[Atrox]

We are the most mobile class in this game (force speed, reduced cd on force speed, remove snares and roots on force speed, vanish, reduce cd on vanish, increased speed while stealth, stealth.)

 

This just isn't true. Warriors are easily 100x more mobile than we are.

[phaeze]

Just about everything you've said points to user error. I'm getting tired of reading these whine posts from people who clearly don't know how to use the class properly.

 

Pro tip: YOU'RE NOT A ROGUE!!! Stop trying to play like one! If you want to play a rogue roll an operative. If not, L2P.

 

How does anything I said point to user error? I was making a point as to why I am unsure of what our role is in PvP, and why I feel like we are subpar to operatives at being "assassins"

 

I'm pretty sure I know how to play my class very well.

[LilTikiBoy]

How does anything I said point to user error? I was making a point as to why I am unsure of what our role is in PvP, and why I feel like we are subpar to operatives at being "assassins"

 

I'm pretty sure I know how to play my class very well.

 

 

Dont bother, cowflab is a darkness assassin who see the world from the point of a darkness assassin and doesnt seem to think there is anything wrong with the rest of the class besides user error.

 

PRO TIP: not everyone wants to be forced to play a darkness assassin to not be gimped!

Edited January 8, 2012 by LilTikiBoy

[Cowflab]

How does anything I said point to user error? I was making a point as to why I am unsure of what our role is in PvP, and why I feel like we are subpar to operatives at being "assassins"

 

I'm pretty sure I know how to play my class very well.

 

I point to user error because you're trying to compare assassins to operative, first and foremost. Apples and oranges friend.

 

It's not always intended as an insult if soemone says you're doing it wrong. The ability to take criticism on the fly and learn from your mistakes doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad player. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE can benefit from looking at what they're doing wrong internally.

 

Operatives are better at being ROGUES than the assassin class is. How you define assassin is on you. But I can assure you that nowhere in any Bioware write up or description do they describe assassins as a master of stealth and stunlocking. If the assassin class is modeled after Darth Maul, then I'd say that BW did a pretty good job mirroring the character. No where in the story or movie did I see Darth Maul turn into an invisible guy with little daggers and stun lock anyone.

 

Perception is key.

[LilTikiBoy]

I point to user error because you're trying to compare assassins to operative, first and foremost. Apples and oranges friend.

 

It's not always intended as an insult if soemone says you're doing it wrong. The ability to take criticism on the fly and learn from your mistakes doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad player. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE can benefit from looking at what they're doing wrong internally.

 

Operatives are better at being ROGUES than the assassin class is. How you define assassin is on you. But I can assure you that nowhere in any Bioware write up or description do they describe assassins as a master of stealth and stunlocking. If the assassin class is modeled after Darth Maul, then I'd say that BW did a pretty good job mirroring the character. No where in the story or movie did I see Darth Maul turn into an invisible guy with little daggers and stun lock anyone.

 

Perception is key.

 

and your perception just took you from comparing two classes in swtor to a class in swtor and a class in wow. your hatred of the rogue class in wow has spilled into swtor. i havent seen any say "why doesnt the assassin play like a rogue!?!?" yet for some reason you always go back to that same point. we know its not a rogue, now you need to get over it.

[Cowflab]

Dont bother, cowflab is a darkness assassin who see the world from the point of a darkness assassin and doesnt seem to think there is anything wrong with the rest of the class besides user error.

 

PRO TIP: not everyone wants to be forced to play a darkness assassin to not be gimped!

 

You're completely incorrect. I have spoken to quite a few deception assassins who actually use the class like it was designed to be used, and every single one of them will tell you that if you play the class as if it was a rogue, your failures lie solely on your shoulders.

 

Deception doesn't even have a full set of abilities that compliment a rogue type playstyle. Chiefly being that they don't even have an aplha strike ability as an opener. The only similarities the deception assassin has to a stereotypical rogue class is stealth, combat stealth, and a DoT wipe. Other than that, it is a unique class of it's own.

 

But by all means, if you want to continue to push the square peg into the round hole and blame everything other than the fact that you're using your class wrong, go ahead. It's your $15.

[LilTikiBoy]

You're completely incorrect. I have spoken to quite a few deception assassins who actually use the class like it was designed to be used, and every single one of them will tell you that if you play the class as if it was a rogue, your failures lie solely on your shoulders.

 

Deception doesn't even have a full set of abilities that compliment a rogue type playstyle. Chiefly being that they don't even have an aplha strike ability as an opener. The only similarities the deception assassin has to a stereotypical rogue class is stealth, combat stealth, and a DoT wipe. Other than that, it is a unique class of it's own.

 

But by all means, if you want to continue to push the square peg into the round hole and blame everything other than the fact that you're using your class wrong, go ahead. It's your $15.

 

theres that rogue hatred of yours when my post had nothing to do with rogues at all, it had to do with deception and madness not being as viable as darkness in pvp. stop with the wow rogue hatred spam. your like a broken record for christs sake.

[Cowflab]

and your perception just took you from comparing two classes in swtor to a class in swtor and a class in wow. your hatred of the rogue class in wow has spilled into swtor. i havent seen any say "why doesnt the assassin play like a rogue!?!?" yet for some reason you always go back to that same point. we know its not a rogue, now you need to get over it.

 

Irrelevant comment is irrelevant. It is glaringly obvious that most of the people complaining about deception spec'd assassins are comparing them to rogue counterparts in other MMO's. thats not my perception. It's reality.

 

How do you know that I have never played deception? You don't. you're basing your judgments on my posts by your own preconceived notions. I leveld as deception and spent a fair bit of my time in early PvP as deception. I know how the AC plays and have a pretty good grasp of its intended design. I also have played rogues in other games, so my "hatred" towards them is nonexistant. i actually thoroughly enjoy the playstyle. I'm just pointing out that the assassin is not in that archetype.

 

Are you done jumping to conclusions now?

[Cowflab]

tell me, where are the majority of your points? do you use dark charge? do you have a shield generator equipped? if yes to the above, YOUR DARKNESS! now maybe instead of sitting here trying to figure out why my assassins doesnt play like a wow rogue (which isnt the topic of discussion) we can get back to figure out why the assassin class has issues in pvp unless you dump points into darkness and run around with dark charge.

 

It doesn't play anything like a full darkness build. Just because it shares some components with a darkness build =/= darkness build. Secondly, the problem most people have with deception builds is that they are capable damage dealers but lack survivability. That's where the WoW rogue comparison comes into play, because a true rogue-esque archetype has tools at it's disposal to deal both great burst and have good survivability in the same build. This is not possible with the assassin class because it would result in mass nerf cries and an overpowered class. Bioware forces you to sacrifice a little bit of either aspect to gain a bit in the other. IMO, as well as most assassins that use the class properly, this is a fair trade off.

 

Like I said before, you're trying to push a square peg into the round hole. If thats what you choose to do, thats your prerogative. It's your $15 a month. If you actually want to succeed in the game, then you need to adjust your tactics to help you succeed and none of those tactics involve griping on the forums about your square peg not fitting into the round hole.

[aranha]

Dying! Thats their niche as it seems... Getting pretty fed up with this class.. Feels like it offers nothing at all.

[LilTikiBoy]

It doesn't play anything like a full darkness build. Just because it shares some components with a darkness build =/= darkness build. Secondly, the problem most people have with deception builds is that they are capable damage dealers but lack survivability. That's where the WoW rogue comparison comes into play, because a true rogue-esque archetype has tools at it's disposal to deal both great burst and have good survivability in the same build. This is not possible with the assassin class because it would result in mass nerf cries and an overpowered class. Bioware forces you to sacrifice a little bit of either aspect to gain a bit in the other. IMO, as well as most assassins that use the class properly, this is a fair trade off.

 

Like I said before, you're trying to push a square peg into the round hole. If thats what you choose to do, thats your prerogative. It's your $15 a month. If you actually want to succeed in the game, then you need to adjust your tactics to help you succeed and none of those tactics involve griping on the forums about your square peg not fitting into the round hole.

 

so basically what your saying is that deception lacks survivability? perhaps BW should look at adding something ot the top tiers of the tree to help with this issue without making the rest of the class OP.

 

btw incase you hadnt noticed, im ignoring the rest of the garbage you posted about pegs/holes and how i should just "adjust my tactics" instead of fixing the problem.

 

aslo, why do you guys always seem to think you speak for "most" of the other people? if you did we woulnt have so many threads about it. your not the all-knowing god of the assassin class, so please dont act like it.

[phaeze]

Deception doesn't even have a full set of abilities that compliment a rogue type playstyle. Chiefly being that they don't even have an aplha strike ability as an opener. The only similarities the deception assassin has to a stereotypical rogue class is stealth, combat stealth, and a DoT wipe. Other than that, it is a unique class of it's own.

 

If you want to compare it to rogues, in addition to the 3 you mentioned, Assassins also have similar equivalents to: Gouge, Sap, Kick, Sprint, Backstab, Cheapshot, and an ability similar to Evasion.

 

You still have not addressed the issue this thread is primarily about: what our role is in PvP as deception/madness.

 

Is it burst damage? Nope.

Is it survivability? Nope.

Is it CC? Nope.

etc.

 

Pick ANY category and I guarantee I can name a class that does it better than we do.

 

Assassin is not a BAD class, it just has ZERO direction and a bunch of watered down, weak abilities like Spike and Overcharge Saber. We are a class that has stealth with absolutely no synergy with it. Unless I'm forgetting something, we have 3 stealth abilities: Blackout, Spike, and Mind Trap. The first 2 are extremely situational.

 

They could easily change Stealth to Force Leap and the class would be almost the exact same, it would just be harder to pick and choose our fights.

Edited January 8, 2012 by phaeze

[Obtaurian]

I'm a level 22 madness assassin, and during a game of Voidstar I was consistently planting the bombs and keeping all of the level 50s away just by using blackout to sneak up on the door while everyone else was killing each other, and overload/jolt as soon as they realized the bomb was gonna go off.

 

Probably just a case of a bunch of people not playing the game right, but I thought it was hilarious nonetheless.

[Cowflab]

so basically what your saying is that deception lacks survivability? perhaps BW should look at adding something ot the top tiers of the tree to help with this issue without making the rest of the class OP.

 

btw incase you hadnt noticed, im ignoring the rest of the garbage you posted about pegs/holes and how i should just "adjust my tactics" instead of fixing the problem.

 

aslo, why do you guys always seem to think you speak for "most" of the other people? if you did we woulnt have so many threads about it. your not the all-knowing god of the assassin class, so please dont act like it.

 

Adjusting tactics is a way to actually succeed in the game while these so called fixes are being milled over by the development team. No amount of griping you or anyone else does on the forums is going to persuade them into making changes. It's already been said by bioware that they will not make changes based on threads posted in the sub forums. It pointless and is only a means of creating a divide in the playerbase.

 

Just like your angle, maybe you should heed the advice provided by people who are enjoying and succeeding in the class rather than griping about things that have no immediate plan of action for change. If you don't like the playstyle reroll an operative because that is obviously closer to what you want out of this class.

 

Finally, I'm not speaking for the majority. I have played both specs and am providing advice on what I've seen and done that works. You can make changes based off of what I've said or you can continue to clash into the same short comings you'd complaining about. That's up to you.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Take that how you will.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Cowflab

[Cowflab]

If you want to compare it to rogues, in addition to the 3 you mentioned, Assassins also have similar equivalents to: Gouge, Sap, Kick, Sprint, Backstab, Cheapshot, and an ability similar to Evasion.

 

You still have not addressed the issue this thread is primarily about: what our role is in PvP as deception/madness.

 

Is it burst damage? Nope.

Is it survivability? Nope.

Is it CC? Nope.

etc.

 

Pick ANY category and I guarantee I can name a class that does it better than we do.

 

Assassin is not a BAD class, it just has ZERO direction and a bunch of watered down, weak abilities like Spike and Overcharge Saber. We are a class that has stealth with absolutely no synergy with it. Unless I'm forgetting something, we have 3 stealth abilities: Blackout, Spike, and Mind Trap. The first 2 are extremely situational.

 

They could easily change Stealth to Force Leap and the class would be almost the exact same, it would just be harder to pick and choose our fights.

 

As a poster said earlier in this thread, we do not excel as the best in any one single category but we are the only AC who is capable of performing them all. Jack of all trades, master of none. Work with your strengths and use them to your advantage. Avoid your weaknesses because the structure of the class allows you to do so.

[phaeze]

Jack of all trades, master of none. Work with your strengths and use them to your advantage. Avoid your weaknesses because the structure of the class allows you to do so.

 

Do you even know what you're talking about?

 

"Jack of all trades, master of none. Work with your strengths.." That is definitely a contradiction.

 

Unless you count stealthing or getting out of combat, deception/madness assassins have no real strengths in PvP. Operatives do everything we do, but better, in addition to being able to heal. The only thing they don't have is guard/taunt.

[Eyesmindassassin]

Wow. There's wayyy too many REALLY REALLY terrible Rogue rerollers playing Darkness FotM's in this game and pretending they know what they are typing about and are actually competent in this game or the other when obviously neither is the case.

 

I've played the Rogue class at a very high level in the other game among other very high level (R1) Rogues and since playing Sith Assassin I've noticed nothing but similarities in the abilites and mechanics of the classes. As a poster already mentioned, things like Gouge, Sprint, Sap, Backstab, Vanish, etc are almost EXACTLY the same mechanics wise, duration, CD, EVERYTHING.

 

The only thing I do agree with is that the Sith Assassin is basically very gimped and underpowered as well as far and away lower skill capped compared to the Rogue class. LOL @ thinking a Sith Assassin is harder to play or something or that you have to use your abilities more wisely or something (especially when playing FotM easiest and actually decent Assassin spec in Darkness).

 

You obvioulsy have never watched someone like Neilyo or Reckful play or played at their level if you think that. Focus Redirecting Kidney's with stopattack on switching targets so you can chain them into Dance or Vanish -> Focus Saps into Focus Blind/Gouges, etc is ridicuously more skillful than anything you can ever do on an Assassin. That isn't even mentioning pre-cata mechanics that required perfect timing and split-second decision making like Vanishing Blinds and Gouging Trinkets.

 

Your Rogue hate is very misplaced and you'd be better off showcasing some of that anger in regards to your FotM easymode reroll to Darkness Sin instead of playing a real skilled class like a Rogue because you were probably stuck in the 1300's nevermind even a Challenger in any season of Arena.

[AngelDCX]

If you want to compare it to rogues, in addition to the 3 you mentioned, Assassins also have similar equivalents to: Gouge, Sap, Kick, Sprint, Backstab, Cheapshot, and an ability similar to Evasion.

 

You still have not addressed the issue this thread is primarily about: what our role is in PvP as deception/madness.

 

Is it burst damage? Nope.

Is it survivability? Nope.

Is it CC? Nope.

etc.

 

Pick ANY category and I guarantee I can name a class that does it better than we do.

 

Assassin is not a BAD class, it just has ZERO direction and a bunch of watered down, weak abilities like Spike and Overcharge Saber. We are a class that has stealth with absolutely no synergy with it. Unless I'm forgetting something, we have 3 stealth abilities: Blackout, Spike, and Mind Trap. The first 2 are extremely situational.

 

They could easily change Stealth to Force Leap and the class would be almost the exact same, it would just be harder to pick and choose our fights.

 

Agreed, whats the point of deception if not burst damage? I see people on the forums go on about how they are getting 5k-6k crits and doing all sorts of insane damage. If thats the case please follow it with what your spec is and what gear you have. People that start going on about if you wanted to be a rogue you should have gone OP and l2p don't do anything to help the rest of us, your just trolling. You want to say something useful say how you did it or what spec your playing and actually having an open discussion on the topic not just trolling.