Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Flebberflep]

There is only a handful of abilities that do that. Most of these "delayed" abilities are channeled ones, it's just that they don't hit for the whole duration of the channel. Some just do a couple of big high damage hits.

 

Oddly enough, the sith marauder channeled abilities actually continue past the cast bar, and the last hits DO land if you don't interrupt the animation...

[Halacs]

There is only a handful of abilities that do that. Most of these "delayed" abilities are channeled ones, it's just that they don't hit for the whole duration of the channel. Some just do a couple of big high damage hits.

 

As a sage, most of these delays are any of the abilities. Just depends on the animation.

[dcjoker]

I am afraid it is.

 

There are several issues that have been mixed up in your threads. I suspect there's a bit of an irony here in that you aren't necessarily talking about what some other people are talking about. I think that's why the initial polite BW response to your thread was "it's a complex problem", because in fact there's a fair bit of talking at cross-purposes in all your threads. You all think you're agreeing about the same thing but it's clear to an outside observer that not all the participants in the thread are talking about the same thing.

 

The long and the short of it is that some of you just have WoW-nostalgia and find the system feels "clunky" to you even when it's working properly; others actually do notice a genuine problem of delayed actions, animation stutters, etc., but that problem is in fact intermittent, i.e. it doesn't happen all the time (and it's not fps or lag related).

 

They already stated it's not working as intended. You're wrong get over it.

[Flebberflep]

They already stated it's not working as intended. You're wrong get over it.

 

I don't think you quite understand what that conversation was about.

[Tiron_Raptor]

This is correct, instant means "instantly" begin, once GCD is completed as well as previous cast/channel is completed. Absolute Instant, .1 delay is too long and it is in fact noticeable in intense environments.

 

Noticeable but not meaningful or harmful.

 

Personally I find the absurdity of the character apparently violating the laws of physics in order to pantomime the mechanics a bit better extremely annoying and immersion breaking.

 

Let's be honest here, WoW is not perfect, and never has been. In fact in many ways it's gotten WORSE as they've obviously been pulling development resources out of it for other projects (It started becoming apparent in Wrath, but even pre-release it was pretty obvious it had been increased DRAMATICALLY for Cataclysm.) It's been better than any alternative by far, but it could still be much, much better.

 

There's a reason I was sick of it partway through Burning Crusade, and only managed to stick around through Wrath because of my friends. When Cataclysm was announced, it killed my desire to play the game anymore to the point that even my guild of 10 years wasn't enough inducement to stay.

 

Part of that reason was the growing emphasis being placed on making the game cater more to the hardcore ubergamer minority. It felt very much like everyone else was being ignored as the game was pushed more and more towards being designed almost exclusively for the very small portion of people at the very top, while the rest of us were left behind.

 

Changing the animations to work in such an unrealistic fashion would be a repetition of this, and would, if it happened right now, be the very first thing that would cause me to even remotely consider cancelling.

 

And let's not forget: WoW is a very old game. It's no longer innovative. It's actually on the DECLINE by Blizzard's own admission. Do we really want to emulate a game that's LOSING customers that closely? Could it maybe be that more and more people are getting tired of it, and that trying to copy it too closely will just result in people that are sick of WoW deciding that this looks too similar to be worth trying?

 

As long as the mechanics work properly, and the animations don't interfere with them, there's absolutely no reason to do it that way in the first place. Frankly, having animations that look realistic, that fire properly and look good, is going to be much more attractive to casual players (by far the majority), than the jerky, broken stutter-fest that you're advocating.

 

The only people who would appreciate it would be a small minority of people who think they're better than everyone else because they're 'hardcore'. Frankly, anyone 'hardcore' can do perfectly fine with the current system once the various bugs are knocked out of it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or admitting that they're not nearly as skilled as they'd like you to think.

 

What's REALLY happening is that it's different, it's unfamiliar, and you don't like the change, simply because it IS a change. So you want it degraded so that it's more 'familiar'.

 

When you see the animation going off and the damage being dealt makes no difference to the combat itself, and does not affect the ability to have 'tightly tuned' encounters. The only exception is things which are critical cues that require a specific response...which can be designed in such a way that they layer on top of animations so seamlessly that they don't HAVE to delay them or be delayed by them. The bonus boss of Esseles is a good example: the very clear icon shown around his feet before he uses his point blank AOE is perfectly capable of being displayed regardless of whatever else he's doing.

 

I'd rather see the existing system refined than have it be thrown out to copy an ancient game that I stopped playing just a month shy of three years ago.

 

This is 2012, there's no reason for the animations to look that crappy. But then, we are talking about the company that once vastly overhauled a game's mechanics and didn't bother to update the character sheet to reflect the changes, causing it to display dramatically inaccurate information...

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Rasstavad]

Ok, guys. I'm reading the patch notes although it is multiple pages of fixes - they don't mention a thing about fixing the issues we have all been discussing. I'm raging right now. Edited January 7, 2012 by Rasstavad

[dcjoker]

@XCORE

 

Thanks bud for saving this game.

 

You guys think I'm kidding but I'm not.

[Xcore]

@Xcore, and every single poster who has put in the effort to make this game better, THANK YOU.

 

I stumbled onto this thread a short while ago and posted a support message, but it is YOU that should feel proud. Your efforts have come to fruition. Rest assured, when this issue is finally resolved, I will silently thank you for doing what hundreds of thousands didn't do, and taking a stand to improve this game.

 

Thanks man

 

I have hope, somewhat renewed and I have a little project that perhaps will help showcase further and help Bioware understand/fix the issue further... we'll see.

 

 

Thanks again for the kind words!

[Xcore]

They have to be careful not to change to much with the combat animations etc, they can improve responsiveness without speeding up the actual abilities.

 

If they make more stuff hit instantly, faster, or have it's own GCD then you would be able to do far to much burst damage in pvp, you shouldn't be able to instagib other players even if you outnumber them. This is how blizzard broke wow's pvp.

 

Negative, this is completely wrong. It has nothing to do with speeding up animations or combat... also, Blizzard never broke WoW's PvP through increased burst.

 

Burst was only a bi-product of resilience... wait until everyone at 50 has expertise and you will come to know burst again.

[Xcore]

Noticeable but not meaningful or harmful.

 

Personally I find the absurdity of the character apparently violating the laws of physics in order to pantomime the mechanics a bit better extremely annoying and immersion breaking.

 

Let's be honest here, WoW is not perfect, and never has been. In fact in many ways it's gotten WORSE as they've obviously been pulling development resources out of it for other projects (It started becoming apparent in Wrath, but even pre-release it was pretty obvious it had been increased DRAMATICALLY for Cataclysm.) It's been better than any alternative by far, but it could still be much, much better.

 

There's a reason I was sick of it partway through Burning Crusade, and only managed to stick around through Wrath because of my friends. When Cataclysm was announced, it killed my desire to play the game anymore to the point that even my guild of 10 years wasn't enough inducement to stay.

 

Part of that reason was the growing emphasis being placed on making the game cater more to the hardcore ubergamer minority. It felt very much like everyone else was being ignored as the game was pushed more and more towards being designed almost exclusively for the very small portion of people at the very top, while the rest of us were left behind.

 

Changing the animations to work in such an unrealistic fashion would be a repetition of this, and would, if it happened right now, be the very first thing that would cause me to even remotely consider cancelling.

 

And let's not forget: WoW is a very old game. It's no longer innovative. It's actually on the DECLINE by Blizzard's own admission. Do we really want to emulate a game that's LOSING customers that closely? Could it maybe be that more and more people are getting tired of it, and that trying to copy it too closely will just result in people that are sick of WoW deciding that this looks too similar to be worth trying?

 

As long as the mechanics work properly, and the animations don't interfere with them, there's absolutely no reason to do it that way in the first place. Frankly, having animations that look realistic, that fire properly and look good, is going to be much more attractive to casual players (by far the majority), than the jerky, broken stutter-fest that you're advocating.

 

The only people who would appreciate it would be a small minority of people who think they're better than everyone else because they're 'hardcore'. Frankly, anyone 'hardcore' can do perfectly fine with the current system once the various bugs are knocked out of it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or admitting that they're not nearly as skilled as they'd like you to think.

 

What's REALLY happening is that it's different, it's unfamiliar, and you don't like the change, simply because it IS a change. So you want it degraded so that it's more 'familiar'.

 

When you see the animation going off and the damage being dealt makes no difference to the combat itself, and does not affect the ability to have 'tightly tuned' encounters. The only exception is things which are critical cues that require a specific response...which can be designed in such a way that they layer on top of animations so seamlessly that they don't HAVE to delay them or be delayed by them. The bonus boss of Esseles is a good example: the very clear icon shown around his feet before he uses his point blank AOE is perfectly capable of being displayed regardless of whatever else he's doing.

 

I'd rather see the existing system refined than have it be thrown out to copy an ancient game that I stopped playing just a month shy of three years ago.

 

This is 2012, there's no reason for the animations to look that crappy. But then, we are talking about the company that once vastly overhauled a game's mechanics and didn't bother to update the character sheet to reflect the changes, causing it to display dramatically inaccurate information...

 

Your entire thesis here on WoW's flaws and imminent and continous decline are wrong and misguided by your personal opinion to favor realism in animation etc. I don't deny that WoW is in decline but for absolutely none of the reasons listed by you.

 

The GREEN part is the only section that most certainly is correct and I agree with. Having said that, Responsiveness is not something that needs to be ignored, it needs to be copied and refined if possible...

 

I don't care about the animations being realistic or not, if they can accomplish good animation realism and immersion thats great, and preferable. However NEVER should ANYTHING in a combat based game > Gameplay = Responsiveness/Avatar Connection.

[Hiro-Protagonist]

Ok, guys. I'm reading the patch notes although it is multiple pages of fixes - they don't mention a thing about fixing the issues we have all been discussing. I'm raging right now.

 

They did appear to fix one combination of skills that was causing problems. From the patch notes:

 

"Corrected an issue where activating cover, using Explosive Probe, and then using Snipe could cause Snipe to be interrupted."

 

That is for the Imperial Agent. They may be fixing these issues in a piecemeal fashion instead of all at once.

 

Just as a general statement (not aimed at you), just because they are fixing other bugs does not mean that they are not actively working on these issues. I think BW is capable of walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Hiro-Protagonist

[Rasstavad]

They did appear to fix one combination of skills that was causing problems. From the patch notes:

 

"Corrected an issue where activating cover, using Explosive Probe, and then using Snipe could cause Snipe to be interrupted."

 

That is for the Imperial Agent. They may be fixing these issues in a piecemeal fashion instead of all at once.

 

Just as a general statement (not aimed at you), just because they are fixing other bugs does not mean that they are not actively working on these issues. I think BW is capable of walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.

 

That has yet to be proven.

[MidwayMayhem]

I really haven't noticed this issue too much other than occasionally. I don't play a lot of PvP though so it could be worse there.

 

If this is a real issue, quick question to Bioware... what kind of storage does this game run off of?

 

I know that Blizzard runs WoW off of VMAX storage with enterprise flash drives. When competive players are complaining about minor latencies, every millisecond you can tap out of the back-end counts.

 

Let me know if you want to know more...

[Tiron_Raptor]

Your entire thesis here on WoW's flaws and imminent and continous decline are wrong and misguided by your personal opinion to favor realism in animation etc. I don't deny that WoW is in decline but for absolutely none of the reasons listed by you.

 

The GREEN part is the only section that most certainly is correct and I agree with. Having said that, Responsiveness is not something that needs to be ignored, it needs to be copied and refined if possible...

 

I don't care about the animations being realistic or not, if they can accomplish good animation realism and immersion thats great, and preferable. However NEVER should ANYTHING in a combat based game > Gameplay = Responsiveness/Avatar Connection.

 

I never said it was in 'continuous decline'. I said it was in decline NOW, and that the way they changed it reduced my PERSONAL enjoyment of it to the point where I had none. I didn't have much to begin with, frankly, because I never particularly enjoyed the game's PvE to start with. If I hadn't gotten into the PvP starting when I was in the mid 20s, I don't think I would've played for anywhere NEAR 4 years.

 

I, and many other people DO care if the animations are realistic. It makes it easier to feel like you're playing a character rather than just a walking jumble of statistics. That's the one thing this game does better than any other MMO I've ever seen, and the animation system is part of it.

 

Breaking it would go a long way to ruining one of this game's greatest strengths.

 

I'd rather see good game design used to make it work rather than just have the system broken because it's easier and it's what people seem to be demanding.

 

They did appear to fix one combination of skills that was causing problems. From the patch notes:

 

"Corrected an issue where activating cover, using Explosive Probe, and then using Snipe could cause Snipe to be interrupted."

 

That is for the Imperial Agent. They may be fixing these issues in a piecemeal fashion instead of all at once.

 

Just as a general statement (not aimed at you), just because they are fixing other bugs does not mean that they are not actively working on these issues. I think BW is capable of walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.

 

They well may have to, because there ARE multiple problems, and some of them are bound to be harder to fix than others. Some are almost certainly harder to figure out what the actual problem is than others, that's why good information and documentation is so important.

 

Trying to find one error in two linked programs that are made up of millions or billions of lines of code each makes finding a specific needle in a stack of needles look trivial... unless you can find some way to narrow it down and localize it, so that you only have to look at a small section of it.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Flebberflep]

Ok, guys. I'm reading the patch notes although it is multiple pages of fixes - they don't mention a thing about fixing the issues we have all been discussing. I'm raging right now.

 

The patch notes are for things that have been fixed.

 

This is still being fixed, and therefore will not yet appear in the patch notes.

[Tiron_Raptor]

The patch notes are for things that have been fixed.

 

This is still being fixed, and therefore will not yet appear in the patch notes.

 

Indeed: 'this month' does not mean 'this week'.

 

It doesn't even necessarily mean 'this month', if they're running on Valve time.

[Taeldian]

Noticeable but not meaningful or harmful.

 

If the delay is noticeable, you've got a big problem on your hands.

 

A quick quote from usability expert Jakob Nielsen:

0.1 second is about the limit for having the user feel that the system is reacting instantaneously, meaning that no special feedback is necessary except to display the result.

 

1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted, even though the user will notice the delay. Normally, no special feedback is necessary during delays of more than 0.1 but less than 1.0 second, but the user does lose the feeling of operating directly on the data.

 

...

 

0.1 second: Limit for users feeling that they are directly manipulating objects in the UI. For example, this is the limit from the time the user selects a column in a table until that column should highlight or otherwise give feedback that it's selected. Ideally, this would also be the response time for sorting the column - if so, users would feel that they are sorting the table.

 

1 second: Limit for users feeling that they are freely navigating the command space without having to unduly wait for the computer. A delay of 0.2-1.0 seconds does mean that users notice the delay and thus feel the computer is "working" on the command, as opposed to having the command be a direct effect of the users' actions. Example: If sorting a table according to the selected column can't be done in 0.1 seconds, it certainly has to be done in 1 second, or users will feel that the UI is sluggish and will lose the sense of "flow" in performing their task. For delays of more than 1 second, indicate to the user that the computer is working on the problem, for example by changing the shape of the cursor.

Source: useit.com

 

He's discussing the usability of applications and websites generally, but the effects are amplified in a video game. When a player loses the sense of control over their character, they get frustrated. When they feel a sense of control over their character, they feel good.

 

That good feeling is the thing that keeps people going back to games like WoW, Counterstrike, and Diablo 2 time and time again. Ever wonder why people still spend so much more time playing Diablo 2 than any of its clones even though those clones might have better features, storylines, and graphics?

 

Because Diablo 2 had better controls.

 

It's a big deal.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[JarenVestrit]

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but Bioware is aware of the issue and is fixing it. They especially love the detailed examples people are providing.

 

A quick update on Ability Delay

 

(it's near the top of this forum)

[Taeldian]

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but Bioware is aware of the issue and is fixing it. They especially love the detailed examples people are providing.

 

A quick update on Ability Delay

 

(it's near the top of this forum)

 

Awesome.

[Tiron_Raptor]

If the delay is noticeable, you've got a big problem on your hands.

 

A quick quote from usability expert Jakob Nielsen:

 

Source: useit.com

 

He's discussing the usability of applications and websites generally, but the effects are amplified in a video game. When a player loses the sense of control over their character, they get frustrated. When they feel a sense of control over their character, they feel good.

 

That good feeling is the thing that keeps people going back to games like WoW, Counterstrike, and Diablo 2 time and time again. Ever wonder why people still spend so much more time playing Diablo 2 than any of its clones even though those clones might have better features, storylines, and graphics?

 

Because Diablo 2 had better controls.

 

It's a big deal.

 

And the Lying Character Sheet, so that you needed a spreadsheet to figure out what your actual stats were. Real useable, indeed...

 

And from what I've seen, the BUG delays are on the order of 0.2 seconds or so, and the animation delays are a maximum of about 1 second.

 

Are you gonna sit here and try to tell me that having the character throw a grenade with the same hand he's presently shooting a blaster with, resulting in the bolts coming out of the barrel at a 90 degree angle because it's pointing straight up as the arm goes over the top, is better than it just waiting a second to play it smoothly... Or better yet, just SKIPPING the shooting, or having the grenade fly out of the character's unmoving right hand... that's better than holding it off for a second and playing it right?

 

Seriously, as I've said 6.7 million times (and will say 6.7 million more until the idea gets through), the UI is already providing full, correct, instant feedback, well more than enough to properly play the game with.

 

If you're focusing so hard that you're noticing delays of a 0.2 seconds, why the heck are you even *looking* at your character? And if you *are* looking at your character, why do you want them to make the animations look terrible?

 

I mean that, literally TERRIBLE.

 

World of Warcraft has one of the worst animation systems I have seen in any game since I got my NES in 1989. Seriously.

[Taeldian]

Are you gonna sit here and try to tell me that having the character throw a grenade with the same hand he's presently shooting a blaster with, resulting in the bolts coming out of the barrel at a 90 degree angle because it's pointing straight up as the arm goes over the top, is better than it just waiting a second to play it smoothly... Or better yet, just SKIPPING the shooting, or having the grenade fly out of the character's unmoving right hand... that's better than holding it off for a second and playing it right?

 

Without hesitation, I would pick fluid controls over fluid animations.

 

It's not even a contest.

 

If you're focusing so hard that you're noticing delays of a 0.2 seconds, why the heck are you even *looking* at your character? And if you *are* looking at your character, why do you want them to make the animations look terrible?

 

It doesn't require any focus for controls to feel sluggish. The time it takes for my character to change directions is noticeable. The wait for the crew skill window is noticeable. The ability delay is noticeable.

 

The game feels sluggish even when I'm hanging out in Imperial Fleet working on crafting.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[Xcore]

And the Lying Character Sheet, so that you needed a spreadsheet to figure out what your actual stats were. Real useable, indeed...

 

And from what I've seen, the BUG delays are on the order of 0.2 seconds or so, and the animation delays are a maximum of about 1 second.

 

Are you gonna sit here and try to tell me that having the character throw a grenade with the same hand he's presently shooting a blaster with, resulting in the bolts coming out of the barrel at a 90 degree angle because it's pointing straight up as the arm goes over the top, is better than it just waiting a second to play it smoothly... Or better yet, just SKIPPING the shooting, or having the grenade fly out of the character's unmoving right hand... that's better than holding it off for a second and playing it right?

 

Seriously, as I've said 6.7 million times (and will say 6.7 million more until the idea gets through), the UI is already providing full, correct, instant feedback, well more than enough to properly play the game with.

 

If you're focusing so hard that you're noticing delays of a 0.2 seconds, why the heck are you even *looking* at your character? And if you *are* looking at your character, why do you want them to make the animations look terrible?

 

I mean that, literally TERRIBLE.

 

World of Warcraft has one of the worst animation systems I have seen in any game since I got my NES in 1989. Seriously.

 

This entire thread is centered around the fact that the UI is not at all in sync and doing the job of provide the necessary feedback. Also, 0.2 sec delay in PvP is big, 1 sec delay is incredible to the point of cancel sub... for most.

 

Green: clearly WoW is unsuccessful and no-one should follow their model of delivering crisp, responsive combat? Clearly Warhammer Online did a great job with that, they even had collision detection, can't get more real than that!

[Xcore]

Without hesitation, I would pick fluid controls over fluid animations.

 

It's not even a contest.

 

 

 

It doesn't require any focus for controls to feel sluggish. The time it takes for my character to change directions is noticeable. The wait for the crew skill window is noticeable. The ability delay is noticeable.

 

The game feels sluggish even when I'm hanging out in Imperial Fleet working on crafting.

 

Correct on each point.

[Tiron_Raptor]

This entire thread is centered around the fact that the UI is not at all in sync and doing the job of provide the necessary feedback. Also, 0.2 sec delay in PvP is big, 1 sec delay is incredible to the point of cancel sub... for most.

 

Green: clearly WoW is unsuccessful and no-one should follow their model of delivering crisp, responsive combat? Clearly Warhammer Online did a great job with that, they even had collision detection, can't get more real than that!

 

No that's the thing, see. the UI? The UI is fine. It instantly provides feedback and responses to the things you do.

 

The ANIMATIONS are sluggish. There's a difference.

 

In fact the UI's so responsive that you can use it to tell when something didn't work right!

 

In fact, it being so responsive is the only reason the subtle delays are even POSSIBLE to find.

[Xcore]

No that's the thing, see. the UI? The UI is fine. It instantly provides feedback and responses to the things you do.

 

The ANIMATIONS are sluggish. There's a difference.

 

In fact the UI's so responsive that you can use it to tell when something didn't work right!

 

In fact, it being so responsive is the only reason the subtle delays are even POSSIBLE to find.

 

I see what you mean, but it isn't just animations that are delayed or off its the abilities themselves. Case in point the Smuggler Grenade, the ability effect/damage, everything was off... including animation.