Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Gotho]

/signed for fixing broken ability delay

[Flebberflep]

Nothing I posted is contradictory or in fact wrong. This is not about a few simple problems or bugs that will be squashed or fixed. You have to realize that it is part of the core combat mechanics and general coding coupled with actual bugs (mostly In UI and sound).

 

You yourself are unable to see the multiple real causes for being blinded by the individual symptoms.

 

Once again, read the above points I outlined, they are all accurate. A statement such as "it happens sometimes" shows only lack of knowledge.

 

I have read your original post, I've read through most of the threads, I agreed with you on quite a few occasions in those threads. I agree with you, there is a problem, but I don't agree with your solution. The combat should not be made like WoW's, and the problem isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be, seriously.

 

When the combat system works, the responsiveness is OK. It needs tweaking, the animations need to be shortened in some cases, and the bugs that are causing the combat to be frustrating for everyone need to be fixed (and from the sounds of things, are already on there way to being so). It doesn't need an overhaul in my opinion, and that's exactly what this is; opinion.

 

I'm just under the impression that this is a much more minor problem than people are making it out to be, but at the same time I don't want to downplay the fact that it IS a problem. People have just been playing too much WoW.

[Xcore]

This is where you're losing me. I agree that I want the combat system to be solid, but replicating WoW probably isn't even what they want to do. You need to have some respect for varying combat systems, not every MMO that's ever made is going to try to copy WoW's combat engine exactly, if it did then what would be the point in making more than 1 MMO?

 

Your militant disregard for a varied combat system is putting me off your entire argument, which is sad because when I first read it I thought it was reasonably well founded. If you want the game to be like WoW, play WoW.

 

If you want to play SW:TOR, you need to respect that the combat system is different, and it's more than likely never going to be the same as in WoW.

 

Yes I am militant because after 5 threads of...

 

1) I'm not having this problem...

2) It's your system/isp

3) 0.0 fixes It

4) Don't mash buttons

5) It's not WoW

 

I have zero patience for ignorance. Listen, I don't want this to be WoW, I don't want elves, I dont want LFD, I don't want Onyxia. However, I and every sane gamer wants responsiveness in character control. WoW has mastered this better than any MMO.

 

You are confusing my argument, I am not saying faster combat, lower GCD to 1sec etc. That'd WoW combat. I am saying I want more precise and refined responsiveness, at least on par with WoW as Its the market standard or better.

[Halacs]

The problem I always had with WoW's 'level of response' is that it was so mixed. Animations didn't play fluidly, and sometimes didn't even have all their components coordinated. Every time you seriously got going it was a crapshoot how badly broken up it was going to be.

 

Frankly, to my mind that's just another kind of 'unresponsiveness'. Having my character suddenly warp from one position into a completely different one to have the animations 'keep up' is incredibly immersion breaking to me.

 

My Mage's Fire blast in particular was bad about this: As an instant cast spell, it didn't have the wind-up time so many others did. So the hit effect would appear instantly, along with the damage, and the glowing hands. Problem was, a fair portion of the time the character's hands were still at her sides, or otherwise not aligned with the normal casting position. She'd then suddenly jump at what appeared to be nearly infinite velocity to the 'finished casting' pose about half a second after the cast.

 

It looked even worse than if the whole thing had just gone off a tiny bit late.

 

So I wholly disagree about the animations needing to be just as responsive as in WoW: The animations in WoW were terrible. They looked aweful because they were constantly being broken in an effort to 'keep up'.

 

We don't need that kind of 'responsiveness'. As long as the UI's accurate and responsive the rest is just fluff, and as fluff it not looking like crap is a high priority.

 

Not to mention I suspect that fixing the client sync issues will probably vastly improve the animation delays as well.

 

Animations are cool the first thousand times, but for me it gets old after that. I like to be able to look around at the battle and not watch for animations past my cast to know if I can cast another ability. Combat smoothness is too important.

[Tiron_Raptor]

And your programming/game development credentials are ... ?

 

Irrelevant. Observation of what's going on doesn't need any 'credentials'. You don't need to be a mechanic to determine that your car fails to start every time it rains.

 

Some of the issues are intermittent, some are not. The ability queue delay for example is 100% reproducible. I can't personally speak to the castbar hitch, as I have no castbar abilities, but it seems to be. I DO know that it's absurdly easy to dismount myself when I move after mounting, which could very well have the same cause.

 

So yeah...at least TRY to look into it yourself before making blanket statements and then trying to cover your ignorance with an irrelevant ad-hominim.

[QMGSaint]

/signed Please fix along with framerate issues and I'll gladly sub for a lifetime.

[Xcore]

The problem I always had with WoW's 'level of response' is that it was so mixed. Animations didn't play fluidly, and sometimes didn't even have all their components coordinated. Every time you seriously got going it was a crapshoot how badly broken up it was going to be.

 

Frankly, to my mind that's just another kind of 'unresponsiveness'. Having my character suddenly warp from one position into a completely different one to have the animations 'keep up' is incredibly immersion breaking to me.

 

My Mage's Fire blast in particular was bad about this: As an instant cast spell, it didn't have the wind-up time so many others did. So the hit effect would appear instantly, along with the damage, and the glowing hands. Problem was, a fair portion of the time the character's hands were still at her sides, or otherwise not aligned with the normal casting position. She'd then suddenly jump at what appeared to be nearly infinite velocity to the 'finished casting' pose about half a second after the cast.

 

It looked even worse than if the whole thing had just gone off a tiny bit late.

 

So I wholly disagree about the animations needing to be just as responsive as in WoW: The animations in WoW were terrible. They looked aweful because they were constantly being broken in an effort to 'keep up'.

 

We don't need that kind of 'responsiveness'. As long as the UI's accurate and responsive the rest is just fluff, and as fluff it not looking like crap is a high priority.

 

Not to mention I suspect that fixing the client sync issues will probably vastly improve the animation delays as well.

 

Don't yet to pick an argument please, at no point did I say Animations need to be as In WoW. SW:TOR animations themselves are superior and I agree on your point to WoWs.

 

However, the Character Responsiveness MUST meet or exceed WoWs. This is gameplay. Animations are irrelevant largely and I have never argued for or against them being similar to WoWs.

[ThanosTitan]

This issue is the absolutely most driving factor in why I wont be resubbing. What good is a compelling story if if the gameplay and UI its layed on is frustrating at best?

[Halacs]

This issue is the absolutely most driving factor in why I wont be resubbing. What good is a compelling story if if the gameplay and UI its layed on is frustrating at best?

 

They are working on it. Sticky at the top of forums.

[gurugeorge]

Irrelevant. Observation of what's going on doesn't need any 'credentials'. You don't need to be a mechanic to determine that your car fails to start every time it rains.

 

Some of the issues are intermittent, some are not. The ability queue delay for example is 100% reproducible. I can't personally speak to the castbar hitch, as I have no castbar abilities, but it seems to be. I DO know that it's absurdly easy to dismount myself when I move after mounting, which could very well have the same cause.

 

So yeah...at least TRY to look into it yourself before making blanket statements and then trying to cover your ignorance with an irrelevant ad-hominim.

 

I don't need to try to look into it, I have had the problems I've spoken of as "real", I know they exist. What I don't believe, is that the core system of SWTOR responsiveness should be like WoW's.

 

My asking for XCore's credentials is totally relevant; he said "Secondly, you have no idea "how" aware I am of each point that is being discussed. From Client/Server Communication through Client Delay simulating responsiveness all the way to UI Bugs and Animation/Sound Sync."

 

This sounds like he's making out that his criticism is based not on mere perception but on inside knowledge of how computer games like this are made and designed, specifically some in-depth knowledge about networking.

 

If he has such inside knowledge, then I'm prepared to listen to him more closely and trust his statement that the problems are omnipresent EVEN WHEN NOT DETECTABLE BY PERCEPTION. If not, then he just looks like someone who wants SWTOR to be different from what it is - i.e. more like WoW in terms of instant responsiveness and animation clipping of the kind I hate.

 

Therefore, I will continue to keep an eye on him about this.

 

I predict that the fixes will be about what Flebberflep and I have been talking about.

 

Let's see his reaction to those fixes. If he make another thread about this then, complaining that the system is "unresponsive" and that d000000m will ensue to SWTOR if it's not fixed, then we'll all know that, basically, he just wants this game to be more like WoW, and that he's just a particularly articulate and persistent member of the class of people who want SWTOR to be even more like WoW than it is

 

If he's happy with the fixes, then we'll all be happy

Edited January 7, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Kharvok]

As someone who has played EQ,EQ2, Guild Wars, Tribes, Wow, Vanguard, SWG, WAR (very competively), Darkfall, Global Agenda, BF 1942/2, I can say that the game looks fluid, but does not feel fluid. I am only up to level 15 so I can't exactly pin point what is off, but something feels off kilter in regards to the responsiveness of abilities and their cooldowns.

 

Fights start off well, but they then seem to muddle down into repetitive button mashing. It doesn't seem to flow like the animations.

 

For how much the game feels like Wow (in quality), it surely seems to miss the mark in this area.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Kharvok

[Tiron_Raptor]

Don't yet to pick an argument please, at no point did I say Animations need to be as In WoW. SW:TOR animations themselves are superior and I agree on your point to WoWs.

 

However, the Character Responsiveness MUST meet or exceed WoWs. This is gameplay. Animations are irrelevant largely and I have never argued for or against them being similar to WoWs.

 

I'm not picking an argument, it just keeps sounding like you want them to use something like the clipping system WoW uses, which is what causes the horribly broken anims over there.

 

I should point out though that some of this, particularly where the animations are concerned is extremely subjective.

 

To go back to the smuggler vid:

 

The grenade not going off on the first click because the castbar's hitched is a problem.

 

The damage and debuff showing up about a second later, before the GCD from activation has finished, is marginal but acceptable.

 

The grenade not hitting the target, triggering the flytext and the target flying through the air, for about two seconds...that being a problem or not is ENTIRELY subjective.

 

This sounds like you're making out that your criticism is based not on mere perception but on inside knowledge of how computer games like this are made and designed, specifically some in-depth knowledge about networking.

 

You don't need 'Inside Knowledge' to do this: There are plenty of articles on gaming sites all over the web about many of the basic principles that games are built on. Some of it's simple physics or basic computing stuff, or readily observed just by watching closely.

 

There's no secret voodoo knowledge required here.

 

I'll admit it helps, but it's not strictly necessary.

 

If you have such inside knowledge, then I'm prepared to listen to you more closely and trust your statement that the problems are omnipresent EVEN WHEN NOT DETECTABLE BY PERCEPTION. If not, then you just look like someone who wants SWTOR to be different from what it is - i.e. more like WoW in terms of instant responsiveness and animation clipping of the kind I hate.

 

Unfortunately, most of the 'omnipresent' problems are extremely subtle, occurring over timescales of tenths of a second at most. They're very easy to miss if you're not specifically looking for them, unless you're one of the mad super leet ultra twitch gamer types. Like most of the top PvPers and Raiders tend to be. That sort of person notices it much more readily

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Renscrab]

A good gameplay is an essential part for a good game, and even more for mmorpg because you want us to play this game for a long time.

 

SWTOR gameplay isnt dynamic at all, because of this delay issue, and also because of combat animations which are sometimes toooo slow and toooo long and sometimes also really lack special effects.

 

I was expecting something ... more punchy ...

As a force user, when i made a pommel strike or a backhand the first time, i tell myself : "and ? that's all ? i hit lv 40, taking my 21 point talent and all i see is my toon hitting my target with his backhand without any special effect ?".

That doesn't really give a feeling of a powerfull Jedi/Sith ...

 

You know, when you're smashing your keys you want to see your toon hit your target really strong *KABOOM* *BAAAM* *ZIIIP*, like (old) batman.

 

Here we got : delay / boom / delay / bam / Zzz / delay / boom again / Zzz / fall asleep ...

 

Anyway, the solo part of this game still really good, but gameplay is not, and like OP say, you will never have a good pve or good pvp game without a good gameplay.

 

A lot of games were big success just because of their gameplay, not so good story, not so good graphics, but so f... good gameplay !!!

 

Please, at least, even if you never enhance animations and specials effects, at least fix this delay issue.

 

Edit : forget to "THANKS A LOT" the OP, who made this smart topic which (maybe) made Bioware fix this issue.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Renscrab

[Light_Valkyrie]

Hello!

 

We wanted to let you know that Emmanuel just posted an update to the Abilidy Delay issue here:

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this update, much appreciated!

[Halacs]

I don't need to try to look into it, I have had the problems I've spoken of as "real", I know they exist. What I don't believe, is that the core system of SWTOR responsiveness should be like WoW's.

 

My asking for your credentials is totally relevant; you said "Secondly, you have no idea "how" aware I am of each point that is being discussed. From Client/Server Communication through Client Delay simulating responsiveness all the way to UI Bugs and Animation/Sound Sync."

 

This sounds like you're making out that your criticism is based not on mere perception but on inside knowledge of how computer games like this are made and designed, specifically some in-depth knowledge about networking.

 

If you have such inside knowledge, then I'm prepared to listen to you more closely and trust your statement that the problems are omnipresent EVEN WHEN NOT DETECTABLE BY PERCEPTION. If not, then you just look like someone who wants SWTOR to be different from what it is - i.e. more like WoW in terms of instant responsiveness and animation clipping of the kind I hate.

 

Therefore, I will continue to keep an eye on you about this.

 

I predict that the fixes will be about what Flebberflep and I have been talking about.

 

Let's see your reaction to those fixes. If you make another thread about this then, complaining that the system is "unresponsive" and that d000000m will ensue to SWTOR if it's not fixed, then we'll all know that, basically, you just want this game to be more like WoW, and that you're just a particularly articulate and persistent member of the class of people who want SWTOR to be even more like WoW than it is

 

If you're happy with the fixes, then we'll all be happy

 

What if the fixes are not about what Flebberflep was saying, how will you react?

I for one want the combat as smooth as WoW's.

[gurugeorge]

What if the fixes are not about what Flebberflep was saying, how will you react?

I for one want the combat as smooth as WoW's.

 

Oh if the devs do decide to ditch the pretty and go with full, nonsensical-looking animation clipping like WoW, it'll probably be my cue to try GW2 or TSR

 

But this only goes to show that you can't please all the people all of the time. I'm a player who's more into immersion and socializing than achivement (though I have a little bit of achiever in me for a small range of things). For me, I really love the consistency and fluidity of the animations in SWTOR, and would hate to have them replaced by the herky-jerky, almost meaningless types of animations like you get in WoW.

 

But I think that actually, as many hardcore gamers have said on these threads, if the system's consistent, it doesn't need to be exactly like WoW's for people to be happy with it. It just has to be consistently what it is, and if it is true that there is a "problem" that's "omnipresent" yet often not perceived then at the very least they need to fix it so it's NEVER PERCEIVED.

 

Average human reaction time is around 215ms, fastest twitchers are around 120ms, average latency is about 35-50ms. Get to it BioWare!

Edited January 7, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Tiron_Raptor]

What if the fixes are not about what Flebberflep was saying, how will you react?

I for one want the combat as smooth as WoW's.

 

You know, I watched that video in your sig about wow's combat system and...I almost fell over laughing.

 

The frostbolt and the icelance coming out of his hand simultaneously has to be one of the stupidest looking and most unrealistic things I have ever seen. If we get characters firing blasters and throwing grenades at the same time, as if they had four hands, I'm going to be seriously annoyed.

 

As for not getting dismounted when he moves...I can remember it happening with my mounts when I still played, so clearly they've changed something. Rather impressive. Maybe. Unless they just did the simple solution I thought of for that problem and made the timers on the server shorter. Say 1.4 seconds for a 1.5 second cast.

 

Which would explain why the client thinks he interrupted it and it goes off anyway.

 

That seems rather...exploitable. We don't need things in the combat system that can provide an advantage by violating what intuitively appears to be the rules... that's just bad.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Halacs]

Oh if the devs do decide to ditch the pretty and go with full, nonsensical-looking animation clipping like WoW, it'll probably be my cue to try GW2 or TSR

 

But this only goes to show that you can't please all the people all of the time. I'm a player who's more into immersion and socializing than achivement (though I have a little bit of achiever in me for a small range of things). For me, I really love the consistency and fluidity of the animations in SWTOR, and would hate to have them replaced by the herky-jerky, almost meaningless types of animations like you get in WoW.

 

But I think that actually, as many hardcore gamers have said on these threads, if the system's consistent, it doesn't need to be exactly like WoW's for people to be happy with it. It just has to be consistently what it is, and if it is true that there is a "problem" that's "omnipresent" yet often not perceived then at the very least they need to fix it so it's NEVER PERCEIVED.

 

Average human reaction time is around 215ms, fastest twitchers are around 120ms, average latency is about 35-50ms. Get to it BioWare!

 

I agree with that. Consistent would be nice.

[Halacs]

You know, I watched that video in your sig about wow's combat system and...I almost fell over laughing.

 

The frostbolt and the icelance coming out of his hand simultaneously has to be one of the stupidest looking and most unrealistic things I have ever seen. If we get characters firing blasters and throwing grenades at the same time, as if they had four hands, I'm going to be seriously annoyed.

 

As for not getting dismounted when he moves...I can remember it happening with my mounts when I still played, so clearly they've changed something. Rather impressive. Maybe. Unless they just did the simple solution I thought of for that problem and made the timers on the server shorter. Say 1.4 seconds for a 1.5 second cast.

 

Which would explain why the client thinks he interrupted it and it goes off anyway.

 

That seems rather...exploitable. We don't need things in the combat system that can provide an advantage by violating what intuitively appears to be the rules... that's just bad.

 

I'm glad you had a chuckle but clearly you do not understand.

 

The instant cast should be able to go off the Istant the other cast is completed. That's the whole idea.

 

Cast finished, can start a new cast, if it's an insist cast it goes off Instantly after the last.

 

Get it now?

 

Flight time for the spell should be the only delay not some lame animation. It's nice the first few times to see the animation but it wears off.

 

The cast timer needs to be longer then the animation or the spells need to be able to clip the animation.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Halacs

[Xcore]

I'm glad you had a chuckle but clearly you do not understand.

 

The instant cast should be able to go off the Istant the other cast is completed. That's the whole idea.

 

Cast finished, can start a new cast, if it's an insist cast it goes off Instantly after the last.

 

Get it now?

 

Flight time for the spell should be the only delay not some lame animation. It's nice the first few times to see the animation but it wears off.

 

The cast timer needs to be longer then the animation or the spells need to be able to clip the animation.

 

This is correct, instant means "instantly" begin, once GCD is completed as well as previous cast/channel is completed. Absolute Instant, .1 delay is too long and it is in fact noticeable in intense environments.

[SWFTW]

@Xcore, and every single poster who has put in the effort to make this game better, THANK YOU.

 

I stumbled onto this thread a short while ago and posted a support message, but it is YOU that should feel proud. Your efforts have come to fruition. Rest assured, when this issue is finally resolved, I will silently thank you for doing what hundreds of thousands didn't do, and taking a stand to improve this game.

Edited January 7, 2012 by SWFTW

[Halacs]

@Xcore, and every single poster who has put in the effort to make this game better, THANK YOU.

 

I stumbled onto this thread a short while ago and posted a support message, but it is YOU that should feel proud. Your efforts have come to fruition. Rest assured, when this issue is finally resolved, I will silently thank you for doing what hundreds of thousands didn't do, and taking a stand to improve this game.

 

Heck yeah!

[NasherUK]

They have to be careful not to change to much with the combat animations etc, they can improve responsiveness without speeding up the actual abilities.

 

If they make more stuff hit instantly, faster, or have it's own GCD then you would be able to do far to much burst damage in pvp, you shouldn't be able to instagib other players even if you outnumber them. This is how blizzard broke wow's pvp.

Edited January 7, 2012 by NasherUK

[Halacs]

They have to be careful not to change to much with the combat animations etc, they can improve responsiveness without speeding up the actual abilities.

 

If they make more stuff hit instantly, faster, or have it's own GCD then you would be able to do far to much burst damage in pvp, to the point where the ball carrier in hattbull could be instagibbed by 2-3 people. This is how blizzard broke wow's pvp.

 

You would still have the GCD.

 

I just want animations to not add time to my casts and delay the next.

[NasherUK]

You would still have the GCD.

 

I just want animations to not add time to my casts and delay the next.

 

There is only a handful of abilities that do that. Most of these "delayed" abilities are channeled ones, it's just that they don't hit for the whole duration of the channel. Some just do a couple of big high damage hits.

Edited January 7, 2012 by NasherUK