Juggernaut Versus Powertech Tanking Comparison

[Kitru]

Again, you come out exceedingly arrogant even when someone is just trying confirm something. Tone it down some.

 

Apparently you misconstrue an itemized matter of fact statement as my speaking down on you. It's not my fault. It's your own in reading the tone into the message that simply wasn't there by intent.

[ruminate]

I'm rolling my eyes at you too. Apparently you're incapable of actually determining what exactly the effects of the normalization are since I'm not simply trying to compare apples to oranges: I did math to directly account for the additional benefits that are not directly counted in the given formulae.

 

I gave Force Sweep a 2.05 coefficient because Guardians have 9% additional Str,,,

 

Who are you trying to fool?

 

Furthermore, Guards get an additional 6% Strength. Assuming 50% Bonus Damage contribution from your primary stat (before any multipliers), this would mean that a Guardian would get an additional 3% Bonus Damage. So, including this benefit, the formulae would look like this.

 

Slow Time: 291.3 + 2.02 * Bonus Damage

Force Sweep: 348.4 + 2.11 * Bonus Damage

Edited January 30, 2012 by ruminate

[Kitru]

Who are you trying to fool?

 

No one. I put my math out there explicitly and changed it exactly where I made the mistake. The fact that the mistake you attempted to call me on that I didn't actually make (though I did admit to it to some extent since I didn't go back and recheck all of my math at the time of the first quote like I did when correcting it when the previous poster called me on it). I welcome people to actually check my math, though, of course, I'm going to expect them to actually *understand* the math in question before they attempt to correct my own math (which you have repeatedly failed at doing).

[ruminate]

No one. I put my math out there explicitly and changed it exactly where I made the mistake. The fact that the mistake you attempted to call me on that I didn't actually make (though I did admit to it to some extent since I didn't go back and recheck all of my math at the time of the first quote like I did when correcting it when the previous poster called me on it). I welcome people to actually check my math, though, of course, I'm going to expect them to actually *understand* the math in question before they attempt to correct my own math (which you have repeatedly failed at doing).

 

You must be the best troll ever.

 

I gave Force Sweep a 2.05 coefficient because Guardians have X% additional Str,,,

 

So, including this(ed: additional strength) benefit, the formulae would look like this.

 

Force Sweep: 348.4 + 2.11 * Bonus Damage

 

You used 2.05 as a base coefficient, then you included the additional strength modifier and turned it to 2.11. You did not use 1.96 as a base coefficient. Don't try to weasel your way out of this.

[angrydurf]

It's also pretty obvious from your terrible comprehension of the Shadow skills in *this* analysis. You should actually try and do some research and ask or simply trust the people that have actually *played* a Shadow. You forgot some abilities as well as getting the numbers *really* wrong.

 

I did do research these are the numbers off tooltips. As I acknowledged I don't have a Shadow at 50 thus this is all theorycrafting and that without even in game parses being available. I'm at a complete loss of where your numbers even come from beyond seeming in many cases to be made up at this point. You act as if the damage coefficients are published out there they are not. Without a log any testing of how these abilities work is pretty much left to anecdotal you simply can't get a meaningful sample watching UI damage numbers. So yea I used the tooltips available. They may be wildly wrong I'll give you that but those are the most reliable numbers I have available. Don't make a big hairy deal about actually checking numbers and math then throw a fit when someone doesn't take your anecdotal numbers as gospel.

 

First off, you're getting the numbers *completely wrong* for Force Breach. You can't simply rely on TORhead for the damage numbers: CT Force Breach does about 500 damage at level 50. It's *terrible* for AoE threat.

 

Secondly, Cyclone Slash is best compared to Whirling Blow, the other no CD weapon based attack spam. Even in *this* comparison, Cyclone Slash is noticeably better since their costs are roughly commensurate (both take roughly 4.5 seconds to recover from the cost) but deals *substantially* more damage (higher base coefficient as well as a 15% increase in damage from talents compared to only 6% for Whirling Blow). Cyclone Slash blows Whirling Blow out of the water.

 

Average damage of Cyclone is 599.5 base (untalented) Whirling Strike is 667.5 base (Untalented). Cyclone has +15% damage available talented for an average damage of 689.425. Whirling Strike has +6% for an average of 707.55. How that's Cyclone blowing Whirling out of the water I don't know. Additionally you conveniently ignore that Cyclone caps at 5 targets. Granted few pulls go over that but any time it does (or if there is an adds situation) it becomes a big deal. More importantly you completely ignore the fact that Cyclone is a melee range cone while Whirling is a PBAOE. I'll even give you that ToRhead is wrong and it's melee range as well and it would still outperform as Mob AI surrounds you rather than stacking in one space right in front of you.

 

No, it doesn't. Force Sweep hits roughly 4-5 times harder and can be used more often: Force Breach has a 15 sec CD in an intelligent tank spec and is only useful for the acc debuff and Force Sweep has a 12 sec CD in an intelligent tank spec and would be amazing in a tank spec thanks to its huge damage capabilities even if it *didn't* have the debuff: the debuff is just icing on the cake.

 

You're also completely ignorant of the fact that you don't need to take Effusion to make Force Sweep free: the Courage talent already *does* that in the Defense tree (if you can't block or dodge at least 3 times in 12 seconds as a tank in an AoE situation, you're doing it wrong).

 

Do some research and basic fact checking. Seriously. I'm beginning to question whether you know as little about Jugg/Guardian tanking as you do about Shad/Sin tanking. Just doing some cursory examination in game would tell you exactly how wrong you are.

 

Perfectly aware of Courage which is why I even included the calcs with it as a free ability. I'll give you that the numbers I have from my sources seem to disagree to a huge degree with what you've seen ingame. Force Breach may be useless then. I see little enough other argument against that assertion that I'll take it as others experience as well.

 

Since you have pointed it out (I missed it in my first look through the tree) It seems like Slow time is a better comparison? every fifteen seconds force sweep will do a base of 731.5 damage and be free(if talented which is the most likely case). Slow time will do 926 damage but cost 60 force. With talents Slow Times damage can be scaled up 1018.6 while with all talents will scale up to 1060.675. With 8 skill points devoted to it Sweep will do roughly 4% more damage than Slow time will with 4 talents. This will be free however as opposed to the 60 Force over the same period used on Slow Time. Slow time also has the "High Threat" modifier estimated to be a 50% bonus by most Meaning that threat will be 1527.9 threat.

 

That brings us around to resource comparisons which are tricky at best with such varied systems. So from what you've put up (and I've verified I don't know where the 10% came from I misread something drastically) you can rely on 12.4 force per second. Over the course of 15 seconds that is 186. That's also 10 GCDs two of which will be used for Slow Time. leaving 126 force to be used on 8 GCDs or 15.75 per GCD spamming Whirling blow will lose you 24.25 force per GCD. Running you out of force in 4 GCDs Filling with other abilities to avoid running out of force you need to alternate with Saber strike to manage in a pure AOE scenario. Not sure if Kinetic Ward is even worth the 10 force for an AOE pull since it'll be knocked off so quickly. But with a rotation of KW>ST>SS>WB>WB>SS>ST>WB>KW>SS>SS at which point you are back to ST and have full Focus is sustainable due to poorly matched CDs rotations don't work perfectly and you could probably in a short fight edge out an extra WB per 15 seconds but this is sustainable indefinitely with a 12.4force/sec recovery rate with DBSD. This is not an optimal rotation but it is sustainable. This is AOE threat of 1527.9 +707.5 + 707.5 + 707.5 = 3650.4 over the course of 15 seconds or 243.36 TPS.

 

For a guardian spamming a sustainable AOE threat rotation for 12 seconds (CD of Talented Forcesweep), In this time we will also need to use Riposte at least once for 1 focus which is off the GCD, FS>CS>SS>S>CS>S>SS>CS This wraps back around to FS this is fully sustanable and every so often may allow an extra CS due to Soresu form bonus but not every cooldown. Over this period a Guardian generates 1060.675 + 689.425 + 689.425 + 689.425 = 3128.95 or 260.7 Threat Per second.

 

We get a 17.5 TPS advantage Before any bonus for Self healing, and without using force breach whatsoever (since it is apparently useless) with roughly six procs per 15 seconds The heal only needs to be 87.5 to tie. Any higher and the threat from the self heal is bringing the TPS over Jugg/Guardian. Guardians do have to try and maintain positioning to effectively use a melee range cone in order to keep that up however which is significantly more difficult than a PBAOE.

 

In the end with further examination and the assumption that Force breach does pretty much nothing for AOE threat we're in the same boat. Shadows have a trickier "rotation" to manage and Cyclone is harder to position for. If whirling Blow is 10m range not melee like TorHead seems to think then I'd say Shadows pull a narrow advantage. If Force Breach does do decent AOE damage Shadows can pull WAY ahead.

 

However both are still way below the Vanguard who gets just as much mitigation and doesn't struggle to hold single target threat

[Corran]

I posted this in the Class forums, but figured I would note the changes here in the tanking sub-forum as well.

 

I did some comparisons and I think Juggernauts/Guardians need some loving in comparison to other tanks. In direct comparison to Powertechs/Vanguards that is.

 

I'm expecting Warrior/Knight changes (for the better) in the future. There are clearly issues with the class (even though I enjoy it) with tanking in general.

 

Powertech/Vanguards have much more core defensive talents that definitely have synergy where as a Juggernaut I feel like my Immortal tree has very little synergy. Aside from a +4% to shield chance, I feel like there is very little cohesiveness with the tree.

 

Let's compare what I consider the optimal "Tank" build for Powetech versus Juggernaut.

 

Powertech: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RRMrdRrogzZMcbZ0c.1

ONLY Defensive Bonuses with Powertech build listed below:

 

Temporary Buffs/Debuffs(On enemy)

• Combust-Lowers enemy damage by 4% when affected by Flame Sweep/Flame Burst
  
• Oil Slick-Lowers enemy accuracy by 20% in an area for 18 seconds.
  

 

Permanent Buffs/Debuffs (On enemy)

• Rebraced Armor -Armor rating increased by 16%
  
• Shield Vents-Shield chance increased by 2% (Also has a chance to vent heat!)
  
• Ablative Upgrades-Increases Absorption Rating by 6%. (Also reduces cooldown of Self Heal!)
  
• Ion Screen-2% Damage Reduction
  
• Empowered Tech-10% Increased Shield Chance.
  
• Power Armor-Reduces all damage taken by 2%.
  
• Integrated Cardio Package-Increased endurance by 3%.
  

 

Total Permanent Defensive Bonuses:

Armor=116%

Shield Chance=X(Base Value of your shield chance)+12%

Shield Absorption=X(Base Value of your shield absorb)+6%

Damage Reduction=X(Base Value of your DR)+4%

Defense Chance=X(Base Value)

Endurance=103%

 

Juggernaut: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fMGbu0rkuRZhZGb.1

 

Temporary Buffs/Debuffs(On enemy)

 

• Quake-Smash lowers affected targets accuracy by 5% for 18 Seconds.
  
• Blade Barricade-Defense chance increased by 6% when using retaliation.
  
• Sonic Barrier-Moderate damage shield that lasts 10 seconds or until broken. Can be used every 12 seconds.
  
• Dark Blood-Increases duration of Endure Pain by 5 seconds (Total of 15 seconds with 30% temporary health)
  
• Invincible-40% Damage reduction for 10 seconds every 3 minutes.
  
• Payback-Heals 10% hp every 1:30 (includes Unleashe talented cooldown reduction)
  

 

Permanent Buffs/Debuffs (On enemy)

• Guard Stance-Defense chance increased by 6%
  
• Shield Specialization-Shield chance increased by 4%
  
• Dark Blood-Internal/Elemental damaged reduction by 4%
  

 

Total Permanent Defensive Bonuses:

Armor=100%

Shield Chance=X(Base Value)+4%

Shield Absorption=X(Base Value)

Damage Reduction=X(Base Value)

---Damage Reduction versus Internal/Elemental=X(Base Value)+4%

Defense Chance=X(Base Value)+6%

Endurance=100%

 

 

 

As a comparison let's look at a few of the differences.

*Oil Slick versus Smash: Holy crap! 20% versus 5% reduced accuracy for 18 seconds. Wow what disparity!

 

*Self heals: Fully talented "Unleash" versus fully talented "Kolto Overload"

10% Heal every 1:30 versus 15% heal every 2:00 minutes. Comparatively over a timeframe of 6 minutes the Juggernaut would heal for a total of 40% while the Powertech could heal for a total of 45%. The main difference here? Unleash REQUIRES you to be under the effects of some crowd control in order to use, while Kolto Overload doesn't have any such requirement. Meaning...if you aren't being CC'd (Slowed, stunned, knockdown, etc) you can't use it.

 

*Damage Reduction. Powertechs get 4% damage reduction to EVERYTHING. Juggs get 4% damage reduction versus internal/elemental only. Another big disparity when you consider it.

 

What does this all mean though? It means that Powertechs rely upon increased shield chance as their main form of mitigation. They shield more often, and for more damage. They have more permanent bonuses, they have more mitigation bonuses. This means their damage will be "less spikey" making them easier to heal. Damage on them is more consistent.

 

A Juggernaut's damage will be spikey, most of their bonuses are temproary or cooldown related. They have to pay closer attention to their health bars, and if they take a spike of damage use a cooldown to survive until the healer can heal them. They have less permanent bonuses, and overall their bonuses rely upon defense chance mainly. Meaning either the enemy will hit them or not. The only saving grace that Juggernauts get is Sonic Barrier, which I can tell you from experience in Hard-Mode heroics will not last for more then 1 attack.

 

There is a HUGE disparity between Juggernaut's and Powertechs in their ability to tank damage effectively.

 

This comparison above doesn't even begin to go into the offensive bonuses for each. Powertechs have an easier time grabbing AoE aggro, while Juggernaut's have difficulty with it. Offensively, the only gain that Juggernauts get is they get a quite a few Crowd Control abilities, but this matters little on bosses.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to make the classes the same. I like asymmetrical classes with different bonuses. And I'm not saying to nerf Powertechs. They have an obvious synergy with all of their talents that works well. Their entire core of their design revolves around shielding for the most part. But I would like to see Juggernaut talents brought in line with this as well.

 

***Addendum***

Edit: Did Math for oil slick versus smash comparison on Page 3. Added to first post.

 

Let's assume that a single fight with an enemy takes 60 seconds.

Also, lets' assume that the enemies attack speed is 2, so in that 60 seconds they'll get 30 hits.

 

With Smash, their accuracy is reduced to 95% the entire fight so they'll hit 28.5 out of a total possible 30 hits.

 

 

With Oil Slick, their accuracy is reduced to 80% for 18 seconds. In a 18 second timespan, 9 hits occur. This totals on average of 7.2 hits.

The rest of the 42 seconds, we'll assume 100% accuracy. That's 21 hits.

In total Powertech gets 28.2 hits.

 

Juggernaut w/Smash=28.5 attacks hit by enemy.

Powertech w/Oil Slick=28.2 attacks hit by enemy.

 

In such a small sampling of hits the numbers are close together and as such don't show a huge disparity. However, Oil slick is better tuned for short term fights. As the shorter a fight is, the better returns Oil slick will see. The longer a fight is, Smash might edge out above Oil Slick, but just barely.

 

i read this thing and nowhere di ydou mention the base 10% chance all glowstick users have to pary melee and deflect ranged attacks. this means that jugg/guardian/shadow/assassin have a base 10% more defense in pve than vanguard/powertech

 

a missed ability does no damage.

[SentinelBorg]

The formulas and mechanics to calculate the damage of abilities, the impact of stats and so on are all already known. No need to make up your own ones.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

You are right in one point, Whirling Blow scales a bit worse than Cyclone Slash.

On the other hand, Force Breach scales much better than Force Sweep, which is not suprising, considering that it is a dot.

 

Also you can't leave out the range of things, because unfortunately enemies are often standing apart from each other.

 

Here we have:

 

• Cyclone Slash - 4m range, 180° frontal cone
  
• Whirling Blow - 4m range, 360°
  
• Force Sweep - 5m range, 360°
  

 

In the case of Force Breach and Slow Time I don't have the values. Has anyone tested them and could post them?

Edited February 1, 2012 by SentinelBorg

[SentinelBorg]

i read this thing and nowhere di ydou mention the base 10% chance all glowstick users have to pary melee and deflect ranged attacks. this means that jugg/guardian/shadow/assassin have a base 10% more defense in pve than vanguard/powertech

 

a missed ability does no damage.

What? A Guardian has 5% base defense!

[Kitru]

You are right in one point, Whirling Blow scales a bit worse than Cyclone Slash.

On the other hand, Force Breach scales much better than Force Sweep, which is not suprising, considering that it is a dot.

 

Force Breach is only a DoT when you're in Force Technique and is only a single target attack when used as such. When used as an AoE (re: only in Combat Technique), it scales *way* worse and is immediate damage. Hitting a single target with Force Sweep generates about as much, if not more, damage than that generated by hitting 5 targets with Force Breach. Force Breach is a *joke* as an AoE; taken directly from my Shadow Tank in game, I have 482.9 Force Bonus Damage and Force Breach deals 511-585 damage *on a 15 second CD*. It's only useful as a debuff; for threat, it's pretty much the equivalent of a half price Whirling Blow once every 15 seconds. Anyone that has actually played a Shadow rather than just looking at databases would know this.

 

Also you can't leave out the range of things, because unfortunately enemies are often standing apart from each other.

 

I've actually brought range and AoE type utility up either in this thread or in other threads. Force Breach and Slow Time are both 4-5m radius AoE (just tested) centered on the designated target. It may have a 10m range (honestly not that useful) but the disadvantage is that, compared to Force Sweep, you have much weaker control over the point of origin of the given attacks: it has the be centered on a given enemy rather than any location of your choice (re: where you're standing), making Force Sweep honestly *better*. If 2 enemies were 8m apart, Slow Time and Force Breach would only be able to hit a single one whereas a knight could place herself in between the two and hit both.

[Kitru]

i read this thing and nowhere di ydou mention the base 10% chance all glowstick users have to pary melee and deflect ranged attacks. this means that jugg/guardian/shadow/assassin have a base 10% more defense in pve than vanguard/powertech

 

You're only half correct here. Guard/Juggs have only the 5% base defense chance, just like BH/Troopers. Cons/Inqs have the base 10%. I actually included this in the math that I provided. The reason, I infer, is to balance out the lower armor contributions from being in light armor which amounts to about 5% more damage taken, just like Smugg/Ops have the cover mechanic to make them tougher.