What do we use: +Crit Rating or +Power?

[Capsup]

My math may well be wrong. Mind putting your finger down on exactly what it is I'm not doing properly and perhaps share how you calculate it?

 

Also, you're right, those are ranged abilities aswell. I completely forgot the lethality tree.

In my understand of how Power works, it just adds a flat bonus to all attacks across the board? Whether that is a ranged ability or a tech ability, the power bonus is still the same. Or did I get it wrong?

 

Edit: I checked my previous statement ingame and according to my character screen it seems my observations are correct. Power just adds a flat damage bonus to both ranged and tech damage across the board. There is one thing that could skew the results a bit, and that is the fact that I have my base accuracy at 90% where it is in fact 100% for the special attacks which is pretty much every single of our ability other than rifle shot.

I'm also not taking crit chance from secondary stats into consideration. Or the damage bonus from that either.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Capsup

[epixhints]

My math may well be wrong. Mind putting your finger down on exactly what it is I'm not doing properly and perhaps share how you calculate it?

 

Well you are just ignoring the Coefficients on abilties I suppose.

 

For example, Rifle Blast has a 1.0 coefficient on weapon damage, and a 1.0 coefficient on ranged bonus damage, and a 0 coefficient on standard health. Overload Shot has a 0.83 coefficient on weapon damage and a 1.24 coefficient on ranged bonus damage and a .124 coefficient on standard health.

 

If you are relying solely on Rifle Blast, Weapon Damage and Ranged Bonus Damage is exactly equivalent. If you are relying solely on Overload Shot, Ranged Bonus Damage is valued a bit higher. For something that has a low coefficient on bonus damage (let's say Cull's bonus damage on poisons which is 0/0.6/0.06), crit may be valued very highly.

 

In the end, it all depends on what percentage of our overall damage is based on which abiltiies.

 

These values are pulled from the game files (and are also on Torhead) and are used in the equations you have copied from Sith Warrior

Edited January 5, 2012 by epixhints

[Capsup]

That makes alot of sense actually. Is there somewhere where I can see all of those coefficients? I couldn't quite figure out how they worked based on the torhead info. If you can provide me a link to those, I'll work on incorporating them into the calculations and see what kind of difference it does. I'll make it work with the UI so you can select various kind of abilities that you'd like to use and it will calculate the best stats based on those abilities' coefficients and which stats will boost the selected abilities the most.

If I do that, is there anything else which I've forgot?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Capsup

[epixhints]

That makes alot of sense actually. <snip>

If I do that, is there anything else which I've forgot?

 

Let's look at Cull (the most complex ability I've come across)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/dZW3AiK

 

This is the Operative's Cull, there is a Sniper version, so make sure not to use that.

 

If you click on Effect Details right before the Related tabs, it should expand and show you a bunch of jibberish.

 

The first line we care about is the third line that says

WeaponDamage: StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.135, Slots=>[ PrimaryRanged ], StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.135, Coefficient=>1.35, FlurryBlowsMax=>1, AmountModifierPercent=>-0.1, IgnoreDualWieldModifier=>1, FlurryBlowsMin=>1, IsSpecialAbility=>1

 

This tells us that it uses Weapon Damage, so we need the first part of the Damage Equation that includes Weapon Damage.

It tells us that it uses the PrimaryRanged slot (i.e. our rifle, none of our abilities key off offhand damage).

It tells us that the Min and Max StandardHealthPercents are both 0.135 (this is not always the case.. sometimes it's different)

It tells us that the Coefficient for Bonus Damage is 1.35

It tells us that our Weapon Damage Modifier Amount [AmountModifierPercent] is -0.1.

Lastly, it tells us to ignore dualwielding (all operative abilties do).

 

Now we take these numbers and cram em into the formula.

Let's take our weapon to be a 100-200 damage weapon.

Let's also say our Bonus Ranged Damage is 60

Damage = (1+AmountModifierPercent)*WeaponDamage+Coefficient*BonusRangedDamage+StandardHealthPercent*StandardHealth

 

So we plug in some stuff..

MinDamage = (1+-0.1)*100+1.35*60+0.135*SHP {we will get back to this}
MaxDamage = (1+-0.1)*200+1.35*60+0.135*SHP

So we need to find the SHP for our ability. This is based on the level at which you trained it. You can look at the table there on Sith Warrior to get the values. For Skill Tree abilities, it's a bit tricky. It seems for Cull, it always uses the level 30 SHP.

so..

MinDamage = 171 + 0.135*1130 = 323
MaxDamage = 261 + 0.135*1130 = 413

 

So we know Cull, with our stats, does 323-413. If somebody out there has these stats, that's what the tooltip would show (excluding additive damage bonus from skill tree and such).

 

This should be everything you need to do to get damage ranges on abilities. For DoTs, this equation gives you damage per tick; damage ticks every 3 seconds, so to get the total number of ticks you just divide duration by 3.

 

To make your application run a bit faster, you don't need a loop at all to calculate damage.

If you want to do 100 hits with a 23.2% crit rate, just find the number of crits as you have, which leaves the difference between total swings and crits the number of normal hits.

Swings = 100
Crits = floor(critrate)
Hits = Swings - Crits

Then just multiply each one by the right number

Damage = Crits*AvgDamage*CritBonus+Hits*AvgDamage

Then you can multiply by whatever mods you have that affect all the damage.

Damage *= DamageMods

I think that's it for now.

Edited January 5, 2012 by epixhints

[Capsup]

Noted.

 

Thanks for your help. I'll get working on it right away. Thanks for the help.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Capsup

[Avia]

All theorycrafting aside, Bioware has decided for us - the operative t1 set is primarily power/accuracy (the dps set), though there is one or two pieces that have crit or surge, I'm actually losing quite a bit of crit on upgrades. The raw damage probably evens it out in the long run, but having 40+% crit was fun, picked up two pieces tonight and now I'm back down to 37.

[Joechicklets]

Thank you to those of you who are taking the time to work out the math for the rest of us stupid peasants.

[epixhints]

All theorycrafting aside, Bioware has decided for us - the operative t1 set is primarily power/accuracy (the dps set), though there is one or two pieces that have crit or surge, I'm actually losing quite a bit of crit on upgrades. The raw damage probably evens it out in the long run, but having 40+% crit was fun, picked up two pieces tonight and now I'm back down to 37.

 

As long as there are mods we can swap around, it is still valuable information.

 

All my testing so far seems to value Power incredibly highly though, especially when you hit 150-200 crit and surge.

[CSMatthew]

So... uhm... power>crit>surge for PVP-focused?

[trotsky_tor]

So... uhm... power>crit>surge for PVP-focused?

 

crit/surge probably have higher value for pvp focused player as burst is more important there. Power would still be a linear increase in damage/healing though, so it's going to be good for whatever role you are doing. This is mainly talking about PvE.

[epixhints]

So... uhm... power>crit>surge for PVP-focused?

 

Yeah, pretty much. Small amounts of surge make a huge difference at low ratings, so it's well worth getting 100 surge for the 15% crit bonus. Crit Rating loses effectiveness pretty quickly, starting at around 25 rating per 1%, by 300 rating it takes 35 rating per 1%.

 

All my numbers point to getting 150-200 crit & surge, then pump power hard. If you are going Lethality, a good number of abilities are Ranged and you *may* want to get accuracy to make sure you never miss [329 rating for 100% accuracy). I say may because I am unsure how accuracy affects PvP.

[Darinford]

Just crunch the numbers for each piece of gear

 

You won't have a choice endgame for awhile anyway. Have to use your set pieces for the set bonus. Once you get some spare epics you can yank the mods and customize a bit more, but for about the first 3 weeks at 50 you're stuck with mostly whatcha got.

 

I'd say Acc to 110% to mitigate clothers dodge. After that I'd say 200 power then crit/surge.

[CSMatthew]

Thanks for the info...

[epixhints]

I'd say Acc to 110% to mitigate clothers dodge. After that I'd say 200 power then crit/surge.

 

Tech Abilities will never miss or be resisted by players with base stats.

Ranged abilities will miss 10% of the time, and be avoided 5% of the time. You would only need 105% ranged accuracy (563 rating) to negate base dodge chance.

Edited January 6, 2012 by epixhints

[Sevvy]

Why does every freaking end-ish game Enhancement have Accuracy on it aside from the Ilum Heroic 2+ Crit/Surge Enhancement?

 

Anyone know a good place/way to get some good Power Enhancements without using hard mode mats?

[Veralis]

I want more information about accuracy.

 

The guy building the java program so far is producing results that the optimal setup doesn't include any accuracy. I understand he's using the sithwarrior.com calculations. Can this be right? Is Power always better than Accuracy? He says 101% accuracy = 1% more damage.

 

I don't understand, I thought there was an armor pen aspect to it? Would accuracy be more effective vs high armor targets? If so how does it interact with acid blade armor pen?

 

If anyone spouts off that acc over cap reduces enemy chance, I will punch them; we're talking tech damage not ranged.

[epixhints]

I want more information about accuracy.

 

The guy building the java program so far is producing results that the optimal setup doesn't include any accuracy. I understand he's using the sithwarrior.com calculations. Can this be right? Is Power always better than Accuracy? He says 101% accuracy = 1% more damage.

 

I don't understand, I thought there was an armor pen aspect to it? Would accuracy be more effective vs high armor targets? If so how does it interact with acid blade armor pen?

 

If anyone spouts off that acc over cap reduces enemy chance, I will punch them; we're talking tech damage not ranged.

 

There is no Armor Penetration aspect to Accuracy.

 

Accuracy over 100% for Tech Abilities reduces Tech Resist chance of the target. It does not increase the damage of your hits, it just cancels out whatever chance your target has of resisting (i.e. nullifying all damage and effects of your ability) that ability.

 

Accuracy over 100% for Ranged Abilities reduces the Defense Chance of the target. It does not increase the damage of your hits, it just cancels out whatever chance your target has to dodge/deflect (i.e. nullifying all damage and effects of your ability) that ability.

 

You cannot reduce your target's chance to shield your attacks except by pushing your crit chance over 100%-<Target's Shield Chance>, in which case their shield chance is 100%-<Your Crit Chance>.

Edited January 7, 2012 by epixhints

[Veralis]

There is no Armor Penetration aspect to Accuracy.

 

Accuracy over 100% for Tech Abilities reduces Tech Resist chance of the target. It does not increase the damage of your hits, it just cancels out whatever chance your target has of resisting (i.e. nullifying all damage and effects of your ability) that ability.

 

Accuracy over 100% for Ranged Abilities reduces the Defense Chance of the target. It does not increase the damage of your hits, it just cancels out whatever chance your target has to dodge/deflect (i.e. nullifying all damage and effects of your ability) that ability.

 

You cannot reduce your target's chance to shield your attacks except by pushing your crit chance over 100%-<Target's Shield Chance>, in which case their shield chance is 100%-<Your Crit Chance>.

 

Thanks for the info. There's a lot of misinformation about accuracy around. You sound like you got it which would suggest accuracy is useless for concealment ops in pvp.

[Sinemetu]

I don't know about that. Wouldn't it still be useful against tanks?

 

In PvE, I'm skeptical of any calculation saying to ignore accuracy. Bosses are probably going to have a lot more than 5% base defense.

[Veralis]

I don't know about that. Wouldn't it still be useful against tanks?

 

In PvE, I'm skeptical of any calculation saying to ignore accuracy. Bosses are probably going to have a lot more than 5% base defense.

 

I've never had a tech ability fail to land in pvp except when someone uses some immunity ability. So no not really.

[epixhints]

I don't know about that. Wouldn't it still be useful against tanks?

 

In PvE, I'm skeptical of any calculation saying to ignore accuracy. Bosses are probably going to have a lot more than 5% base defense.

 

Until we can get combat logs, we will have no clue how much avoidance they have. I would expect that we will need Accuracy for raids. I would say, just use accuracy that you get on gear anyways until we get the ability to export combat logs. Once that happens, we will be able to pin down a number for capping accuracy on tech attacks.

 

As said before, though -- in PvP, you shouldn't need accuracy as concealment. For lethality, 100% ranged accuracy will push misses off the table and 105% will push the base avoidance off the table.

[Capsup]

I'm very sorry that I haven't returned back here with any news. I'm doing fairly fine with it, but this week I have a very important project in school. I'll resume work on the app on Monday.

[Rraah]

Hello! I have been reading the thread with great interest!

 

In my case, as beeing a healer (lvl 35 only) i have had similar questions in my head. Math is not my strongest asset (master of political sience) but its still interesting!

 

I have more of a "what if" perspective on these stats (mainly power and crit). I know you are calculating damage output - not heal output - but since this is the best thread i've found i'll post here! I hope you dont mind?

 

BASICS (please correct me!)

POWER increase heals (1 power = 0,17 hp heal, i've think i read erlier in the thread)

 

CRITICAL = 50 % more hp healed.

 

My view

We have skills that increase criticals on attacks and heals (too me that means that the developers think that we need it).

We can place points in the skill tree that give beneficial effects by criticals, i'll mention some:

Diagnostic Scan = Crit gives 1 energy

30 % more healed HP from KI

Kolto Probe crits gives Tactical Advantage (bonus heals with TA active).

 

As i see it the game developers wants PvE Healers to have beneficial effects of crits - therefore i am thinking of going for crits before power.

 

What do you think of my arguments? (its not math, its a atempt to analyse the wish of the developer).

 

Thanks for sharing your results!

[trotsky_tor]

Kolto Probe crits gives Tactical Advantage (bonus heals with TA active).

 

That's a chance on "tick", not on crit for Medical Engineering.

[epixhints]

What do you think of my arguments? (its not math, its a atempt to analyse the wish of the developer).

 

Crit has pretty steep diminishing returns, so it's not the best to just stack it blindly. Power has no diminishing returns, which is why it is so valuable. Anything above 500 Crit Rating starts to barely increase your crit chance.

 

To increase healing done by 1 HP for each ability, you would need:

Kolto Injection: 2.15 Power

Kolto Infusion: 2.5 Power

Surgical Probe: 4.3 Power

Kolto Probe: 2.9 Power

Recuperative Nanotech: 3.1 Power