Bioware, we need to talk.

[Xiphoss]

This isnt poker. Poker is a game where there is one pot, and everyone has an equal stake or interest in it. We are talking about people all commiting to random chance to aquire an item of differing value to each person. If we were playing poker and everything in the pot was more suited to a selfish child, I would just let you win. If everything was more suited to a self righteous old man, I would hope you would conceed to me. If it was straight up credits, by all means, lets have at it with equal enthusiasm.

 

Exactly! Differing values.

[Xiphoss]

You're really dense, aren't you? I'm not arguing about the morality of someone who has a me-first attitude verse someone who doesn't. I personally think the person who doesn't is a morally superior human being.

 

The entire point of the argument is that my own personal view on the matter is just as valid as that of the person with the me-first attitude. The only intrinsic law in this system is that we both get to roll a random number generator. If he wins, so be it. I had an equal chance to win as he did. There is no intrinsic morality built into the loot system itself. Expecting every single stranger you encounter to share your values is...beyond naive.

 

If that really makes no sense to you, then we're really beyond the point of rational discussion and likely treading into pointless pettiness territory.

 

Oh, I do not expect everyone to have the same morals I do, that's for sure. It would be nice if there was respect shown in the loot phase though, thankfully most do.

 

But anyway, to the earlier point, why could I not kick the morally inferior player from the party? Why would that judgment be selfish, as you labelled it?

[Xiphoss]

And yes this is totally petty and pointless, fun though.

[avpan]

Revial, I foresee your future of not having many friends in this game if all you care about is how your character looks in this game.

 

In fact, I bet you're better suited playing a dressing up game somewhere instead of an MMO. I agree that you're are going to get booted from a party quite a bit with your "morally superior" thinking

[jdnyc]

Guys it's the first day of the game. There's a chance that people don't know what stats they need for their class. Just a thought.

[revial]

Oh, I do not expect everyone to have the same morals I do, that's for sure. It would be nice if there was respect shown in the loot phase though, thankfully most do.

 

But anyway, to the earlier point, why could I not kick the morally inferior player from the party? Why would that judgment be selfish, as you labelled it?

 

Because they're only morally inferior from your own set of values, and when you're with a group of strangers, it's rational to accept your own set of values has no more weight than any of the other strangers' in your PUG.

 

Or, think of it this way. Why shouldn't this hypothetical stranger kick you? Perhaps in his value system, you're the morally inferior one?

 

As long as you can accept that as being just as valid of an event as you kicking this stranger because he didn't share your values and won a piece of loot that probably has little actual significance in the greater picture of your MMO life, then sure. Kick him. In a small way, I suppose you could be attempting to shape society to fit your image, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that. Just don't be surprised if others, with different values, approach the issue with the same mindset: to change society to their image instead.

 

Afterall, my very arguing with you is sort of a metaphor for this, as I attempt to get you to see my point of view. ;p While doing so, I'm open to the possibility you might argue in ways to try to change mine. Anyways, I am totally digressing.

 

Personally, I can't imagine a single piece of loot I'd have a chance to win in a PUG that mattered enough to me to rage over if someone who couldn't even use it ended up rolling for it, winning a perfectly fair role, and then destroyed it, just because they could. I'd think it's asanine, and probably would put the player on ignore so as to minimize the chances I grouped with him again, but I'd hardly throw a hissy fit over it (ok, putting them on ignore might be the dorky version of a hissy fit; I admit I may not always 100% practice what I preach, let's move on ). I like to think most people over the age of 10 have learned you don't win 'em all.

 

Don't forget that there's an avenue for ensuring you play with people who actually share your values. Friends.

Edited December 14, 2011 by revial

[BloodySunBoy]

I've gotta say I agree with revial, people playing to role play would place more importance on looks than stats in comparison to someone playing to progress their character in power who would place stats over looks. If both play styles place as much value on one item as the other, who is to say that your play style is more valid or important than the others?

 

Also the fact you are able to roll on the item gives you the right, whether you choose to pass because your item looks better, has better stats or anything in between is the players choice when they choose how they want to roll, need or greed.

[BlueRahja]

Personally, I can't imagine a single piece of loot I'd have a chance to win in a PUG that mattered enough to me to rage over if someone who couldn't even use it ended up rolling for it, winning a perfectly fair role, and then destroyed it, just because they could. I'd think it's asanine, and probably would put the player on ignore so as to minimize the chances I grouped with him again, but I'd hardly throw a hissy fit over it.

 

Don't forget that there's an avenue for ensuring you play with people who actually share your values. Friends.

 

So you clearly see that someone taking away the potential for someone else to advance, is simply a waste. I imagine in the near future the loot roller thingy will be fine tuned to settle this whole situation anyway, but in the meantime, being a little respectful of your groupmates, helping them gear up and expecting them to help you gear up in kind, sounds....oh what is that term..."Mutually beneficial"? Isn't that why you are all in the dungeon to begin with?

 

Hell you might even make....oh darn, so scatterbrained...oh yeah! "Friends!"

[revial]

So you clearly see that someone taking away the potential for someone else to advance, is simply a waste. I imagine in the near future the loot roller thingy will be fine tuned to settle this whole situation anyway, but in the meantime, being a little respectful of your groupmates, helping them gear up and expecting them to help you gear up in kind, sounds....oh what is that term..."Mutually beneficial"? Isn't that why you are all in the dungeon to begin with?

 

Hell you might even make....oh darn, so scatterbrained...oh yeah! "Friends!"

 

I get the impression you haven't actually really read any of my posts. I've made it quite clear my own moral views have no bearing on the fairness of the loot system. That, in fact, the loot system is designed the way it is here and in virtually every other MMO exactly because people have different morals and values, and in light of that, the roll system is the only thing that's fair across all of those different value systems, by virtue of not taking any of the value systems into account, thus nulling them all.

 

The loot system is a last resort, made for those cases. In any situation where you're with friends who share your values, there's no actual need for an RNG system since you probably have your own system of deciding who is going to get a piece of loot.

 

If your PUG sort of unofficially decides only people who are going to roll need are those who actually can use the stat upgrades. Then, fine. You all agreed upon it, so one expects everyone to hold to that agreement. In this case, you're not 100% relying on an in-game mechanic, but a hybrid of the mechanic and your fellow PUG's intentions. But, in a PUG full of strangers who could have wildly different values of your own, a PUG in which there was no effort to find some common ground on loot rules, don't get your hackles raised if one of the PUG members decides he wants to roll need on everything. In that case, the only thing that has any relevance is that you all have an equal chance at winning a given loot roll.

Edited December 14, 2011 by revial

[BlueRahja]

Honestly, loot should be discussed with the group before the instance anyway. If theres someone who isn't a fit, send them on their way for everyone's sake, even theirs. If someone lies in the beginning, and starts acting contrary to what the group agreed to, deal with it accordingly. Airlock em. Saw your edit after my post went up. Hive mind. Edited December 14, 2011 by BlueRahja

[squiek]

My companion > you. Simple enough

If I decide I do PvE to gear my companion up, then there is no "you have no right to roll".

 

If I want fixed stuff, I have to put in more effort and maintain friend lists.

Edited December 14, 2011 by squiek

[revial]

My companion > you. Simple enough

If I decide I do PvE to gear my companion up, then there is no "you have no right to roll".

 

If I want fixed stuff, I have to put in more effort and maintain friend lists.

 

Heh. Yea, that's also another gray area. Between gear that can be used for Companions and aesthetics or even just for its mods, despite the armor/weapon part not being usable, it's probably in your best interests to establish some common ground with your PUG from the get go in terms of loot. It's not quite as cut and dry to automatically assume a set of values as it is in some other MMOs, as there's actually a pretty wide range of gear you could potentially roll on and 'use'.

 

If you don't establish these ground rules with your PUG, then don't be surprised if anything goes.

[BlueRahja]

My companion > you. Simple enough

If I decide I do PvE to gear my companion up, then there is no "you have no right to roll".

 

If I want fixed stuff, I have to put in more effort and maintain friend lists.

 

And if you were honest enough to say that at the beginning, I would be more then happy to replace you with someone on my wavelength, and we should both be all the happier for it. Me because I don't have to watch your companion outgear our tank, and you because you aren't floating through space, frozen solid with your organs all over the place like some sort of art piece.

[Gudwin]

Like a broken heart everyone gets over loot jealousy. Except those people that commit suicide.

[Xiphoss]

Revival - Good conversation, we are starting to delve into philosophical territory People do have different values, but in my world view people are entitled to their own values and opinions, but that doesn't make them right. When I want to find out what is right I consult ye old Bible Because I beileve it holds true moral values , in this case, not putting yourself first for the sake of others, a value you too share (as you stated earlier). Any who im off, have a good night!

 

And your right, I shouldn't kick him for disagreeing with my values, thanks for correcting me.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Xiphoss

[Dimus]

Incorrect. We actually tested this across 20 levels of gear and the mods were the *only* source of stats up into level 30+ items. I personally have some reservations about the Epic crafted gear fitting that pattern but you can take your level 10 lightsaber and "turn it into" a level 30 lightsaber just by moving the mods out of a level 30 drop item. You get exactly the same stats (was true for blasters as well) with no loss however the empty husk of the drop seems to retain a minimum level... This was the case with three personally confirmed experiments after I heard many other claims to the same effect.

 

This is only true for weapons. Armor comes with some stats on it. Take away all of the mods and it will have stats still.

[Mitchyslick]

I used to do flash points, then I took an arrow in the knee.

[PeachyKeen]

When I play the game I like to take the moral high ground of only rolling need on things for my class and talents, and greeding most everything else. I only want to play with people that feel the same way, I just wish it were a bit easier to identify them than through trial and error.

 

Since there is no loot eligability filter unlike WoW, WAR, etc... I've been a bit concerned over how this will turn out. I don't want to stoop to a low level, but I also don't want to be "punished" for being considerate either.

[JustTed]

I think the point is, if a Merc doesn't need strength on their armor (and they don't), why can they hit the Need button on strength armor to begin with?