Tactics is TRASH

[Kozor]

I'm level 37 currently and tried out all specs. This might be harsh but currently Tactics tree is simply terrible IMO. Let's start with High Energy Cell: +8% to elemental and internal dmg with talents is laughable compared to fully specced Plasma Cell. The difference in their dps is simply astounding. If HEC gave bonus to ALL damage it would still be worse than Plasma Cell. In the end HEC gives you like +4% total dmg. Might as well go with Ion Cell and gain like 20% survivailibility and a slow.

 

Second thing is Gut. It's pretty much THE skill of Tactics and yet it's so badly designed. Instaed of giving it more dmg and making it a 5-10 sec cooldown skill they made it spammable (too bad spamming it is the worst thing you can do with it). Don't let the "coolness" of the skill fool you, Gut is only there too allow you to use HIB. The dot dmg is again laughable when compared to Plasma Cells's dot (which deals like 4 times more dmg per tick and also slows when specced and can be spammed from 10 metres).

 

Talents in Tactics tree are all over the place, there are no good synergies between them like in Assault. That seems to be the main issue. Basically with Tactics you have worse survivailibility and MUCH worse dps than Assault. I can confidently say with Assault I deal about 30% more dps in total. Plus I can kite.

 

I really wanted to like Tactics, Gut looks awesome but the tree is simply a case of terrible design.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Kozor

[taugrimtaugrim]

I really wanted to like Tactics, Gut looks awesome but the tree is simply a case of terrible design.

 

Tactics is amazing in PVP, if you are comfortable with meleeing and short-range kiting

 

You can totally shutdown casters / healers and apply excellent burst damage.

[RehKi]

Tactics is amazing in PVP, if you are comfortable with meleeing and short-range kiting

 

You can totally shutdown casters / healers and apply excellent burst damage.

 

Tactics SUCKS in PvP....

 

I do more or less damage with shield spec and I don't get owned like if I was wearing soaked toilet paper!

[Kozor]

Tactics is amazing in PVP, if you are comfortable with meleeing and short-range kiting

 

You can totally shutdown casters / healers and apply excellent burst damage.

 

Did you try Assault? Because, other than Hold the Line, Tactics offers nothing Assault doesn't and is worse in pretty much everything else than rushing Huttball. Tactics is one trick pony. You deal much more sustained dmg with Plasma Cell, you can deal great burst with Assault Plastique and HIB spam (thanks to Ionic Accelerator) and you can shutdown casters easily with constant slow on them and Riot Strike.

 

Plus, you can pretty much use Reactive Shield every 1 minute, instead of 2.

 

As for burst dmg Shield Spec does actually more than Tactics with their Stockstrike procs and crit bonuses. There is nothing going for Tactics, other than Hold the Line. Nothing. The whole tree is a mess with no synergies.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Kozor

[va_wanderer]

Hmm. Not even worth splashing a few points at the bottom for Demolition + Focused Impact -> Blaster Augs, considering how much elemental damage you're dealing using plasma cell/HiB?

[RehKi]

Did you try Assault? Because, other than Hold the Line, Tactics offers nothing Assault doesn't and is worse in pretty much everything else than rushing Huttball. Tactics is one trick pony. You deal much more sustained dmg with Plasma Cell, you can deal great burst with Assault Plastique and HIB spam (thanks to Ionic Accelerator) and you can shutdown casters easily with constant slow on them and Riot Strike.

 

Plus, you can pretty much use Reactive Shield every 1 minute, instead of 2.

 

As for burst dmg Shield Spec does actually more than Tactics with their Stockstrike procs and crit bonuses. There is nothing going for Tactics, other than Hold the Line. Nothing. The whole tree is a mess with no synergies.

 

This!! Just tried Assault... did 400k damage without sweating!!! Wasn't even close with Tactics! Will switch some of my DPS gears for tanking one tho!

[bbqsauced]

Hmm. Not even worth splashing a few points at the bottom for Demolition + Focused Impact -> Blaster Augs, considering how much elemental damage you're dealing using plasma cell/HiB?

 

The bottom few tiers are fine for splashing a few points into (I grab a lot there for Assault). I think people are just generally finding that Tactics as a whole isn't that great. (i.e., fully speccing into the tree) My experiences would match that as well, but both Shield Spec and Assault utilize talents from the lower parts of that tree.

[TehMerc]

Tactics could definitely use some help in damage. Out side of Fire Pulse you won't hit someone for 2.5k without expertise overcharges/ out gearring low levels with expertise gear.

 

I can put good pressure up when Ion Pulse crits in a row, along with lucky procs for HiB crits but it's pretty meh damage outside of crits.

 

Tactics really needs something to boost damage outside of crits and Gut's damage increase talent needs to be stronger honestly being a melee range DoT it should at least be on par with the ranged ones you see.

 

Edit: after thinking about it, a talent that would reset Fire Pulse's cooldown would be pretty sufficient in helping, seeing as the other two specs have talents to reset their hardest hitting abilities, some of that synergy being talked about.

Edited January 3, 2012 by TehMerc

[taugrimtaugrim]

As for burst dmg Shield Spec does actually more than Tactics with their Stockstrike procs and crit bonuses. There is nothing going for Tactics, other than Hold the Line. Nothing. The whole tree is a mess with no synergies.

 

Nothing.

 

Hmmm.

 

60% Armor Pene for HIB

6% crit for our elemental attacks (e.g. Ion Pulse, Pulse Cannon)

10 sec redux in Grapple and Pulse Cannon

15% passive run speed buff

2-sec cd redux in our interrupt, which is awesome for soloing healers

 

That's just in the first 3 levels of the tree.

 

Believe what you want to believe. I was cranking out 300k damage as a sub-30 as Tactics, and over 250k in PUGs with no healer.

[GregP]

Edit: after thinking about it, a talent that would reset Fire Pulse's cooldown would be pretty sufficient in helping, seeing as the other two specs have talents to reset their hardest hitting abilities, some of that synergy being talked about.

 

Or just make it hit as hard as assault plastique. I know it only costs 1 ammo, but a 15 second cooldown and only 1000ish damage at level 50....really?

[ReSeNt]

From my experience, Tactics does about the same damage as Assault but is more based on sustained than burst, and is melee...and in PvP, ranged and burst can be very good things. I always feel like I'm playing Call of Duty when Im in Tactics Sprint, Commando Pro etc.

 

Imo, a good spec would be a mix of Tactics using Ion Cell, with Shield spec fillers. A kind of DPS/Tank/Support hybrid.

[Kozor]

Nothing.

 

Hmmm.

 

60% Armor Pene for HIB

6% crit for our elemental attacks (e.g. Ion Pulse, Pulse Cannon)

10 sec redux in Grapple and Pulse Cannon

15% passive run speed buff

2-sec cd redux in our interrupt, which is awesome for soloing healers

 

That's just in the first 3 levels of the tree.

 

Believe what you want to believe. I was cranking out 300k damage as a sub-30 as Tactics, and over 250k in PUGs with no healer.

 

 

I don't mean Tier 1 or 2 talents, these are obviously useful for all trees. Semantics.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I don't mean Tier 1 or 2 talents, these are obviously useful for all trees. Semantics.

 

Just out of curiosity, what kind of damage are you putting up in a premade and in a PUG with AS? You're near level to me, should be a reasonable comparison.

[Kesrik]

20% reduced damage while stunned is pretty amazing. Also, 6 second Riot Strikes are boss.

[Kozor]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of damage are you putting up in a premade and in a PUG with AS? You're near level to me, should be a reasonable comparison.

 

As lvl 34 Assault I was doing about 200k on average, depends on wz.

 

But the difference in dps is easier to notice in PvE.

[aRtFuL]

Tactics is great. The problem here is you are talking about pure tactics tree.

 

Pure ANY tree is weaker than 10 points in something and 31 points max out 1 tree.

 

Tactics with 10 points in assault using plasma cell has the best synergy for pvp imo - ion pulse snares while stacking ion cannon damage bonus, while also granting you a free stockstrike, while the stockstrike also grant you a crit HiB and than ou top of that there's fire pulse - that's a lot of burst right there. Also you have freedom of movement and 30% speed increase for 8 secs every 22 secs (30-8), you will be running circles on ppl kicking lightsaber users at 10m range easily.

 

Very deadly in 1v1 or front line fights.

 

Assault is more for dot and run.

[Kozor]

Tactics is great. The problem here is you are talking about pure tactics tree.

 

Pure ANY tree is weaker than 10 points in something and 31 points max out 1 tree.

 

Tactics with 10 points in assault using plasma cell has the best synergy for pvp imo - ion pulse snares while stacking ion cannon damage bonus, while also granting you a free stockstrike, while the stockstrike also grant you a crit HiB and than ou top of that there's fire pulse - that's a lot of burst right there. Also you have freedom of movement and 30% speed increase for 8 secs every 22 secs (30-8), you will be running circles on ppl kicking lightsaber users at 10m range easily.

 

Very deadly in 1v1 or front line fights.

 

Assault is more for dot and run.

 

 

Do you have ammo issues with this build? Since you lack any kind of additional ammo regeneration. Also do you think getting Ionic Accelerator is worth sacrificing last 2 tiers of Tactics?

[failmonkey]

6% crit for our elemental attacks (e.g. Ion Pulse, Pulse Cannon)

10 sec redux in Grapple and Pulse Cannon

15% passive run speed buff

 

Believe what you want to believe. I was cranking out 300k damage as a sub-30 as Tactics, and over 250k in PUGs with no healer.

 

Do you really use Pulse Cannon and High Energy Cell in PvP?

 

Also, 250k damage in PUGs with no healer? That's holy *********** **** impressive. Especially with the lack of survivability. Once I see I have two sorcs focusing me I just get up and pour myself a new cup of coffee. (lol @ sprint)

[Illinois]

Its my opinion that tactics is best served by going ion cell, and forgoing the talents that boost high energy cell. You lose a negligible amount of damage and mobility, and in turn get a decent boost in survivability for yourself and your teammates (through guard).

 

This is the tactics build that I run. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRMZMsrrobfkdsZb.1

 

You can play around with the points a bit, such as grabbing the reduced cooldown for cyro grenade vs the 2% damage mitigation, etc etc, but it mostly comes down to personal preference.

 

Your burst rotation is gut - sticky - fire pulse - shock strike - high impact. Otherwise use ion pulse with hammer shot as needed to keep your energy up. If you see a clump of people use pulse cannon / mortar volley. Use your interrupt as needed and try to save your stuns for when people are low rather than opening with them. Your aoe stun is great for stunning a healers without swapping off of your main target. You don't have the damage output that the dps classes do, but your survivability is fairly good even using full dps gear and you have guard which basically wins games. Tank / Tank / Dps / Healer is a beast of a four man to try to take down when both your tanks have decent offensive options while keeping guard up.

 

As a disclaimer I don't claim to be the best pvper ever, and I have a lot of stuff to improve on, however in my experience that while tactics might not provide the best overall damage, it does provide enough damage while still being a benefit to your team. Plus you get used to getting 10-12 medals every round, makes the gearing up go fairly smooth.

[aRtFuL]

Do you have ammo issues with this build? Since you lack any kind of additional ammo regeneration. Also do you think getting Ionic Accelerator is worth sacrificing last 2 tiers of Tactics?

 

Not really.

 

If you use the proper action rotation, it is actually quie ammo efficient to use 31T/10A build.

 

You got to remember that Fire Pulse as an opener does a lot of damage and it si only 1 ammo, which also procs a free stockstrike (100% chance on fire pulse) which might also proc a crit HiB. Those 3 starters alone is a lot of opening damage. Then you use ion pulse to proc free stockstrike again (and again you might get crit HiB procs which is adds up to equivalent to another free damage) while building pulse generator to 5 for 50% more damage (which essentially adds up to another free attack or 2 because of the damage dealt). All the while fire pulse maybe up again which means u get another 2 high damage attacks for the cost of 1 ammo.

 

It is actually quite efficient.

Edited January 4, 2012 by aRtFuL

[aRtFuL]

Do you really use Pulse Cannon and High Energy Cell in PvP?

 

No comment on HEC but Pulse Cannon is actually quite useful in pvp. Pulse cannon catches people diving in towards you or catches groups wipes out a lot of their health (if not kill them outright).

[Zendokun]

Do you really use Pulse Cannon and High Energy Cell in PvP?

 

Yes. Harpoon>CryoGrenade>Pulse Cannon ... they eat every bit of damage in 1v1. And in certain circumstances when a bunch are giving their backs and focusing their attention on someone else you can pull of a successful Pulse Cannon hitting 3-4 or even more enemies. Using HEC regenerates ammo every 6 secs if you have specced Cell generator as well as a passive movement buff. So yes I use both HEC and PC in PvP all the time.

[BronzeD]

no single abilities can kill anyone outright in warzone PvP, even assuming u fully crit with all the damage wave and had maxed out surge so that's a bit of an exaggeration but it is quite useful as it is among the few AoE ability that can be aimed after fired. Edited January 4, 2012 by BronzeD

[IlexGlabra]

Tactics SUCKS in PvP....

 

I do more or less damage with shield spec and I don't get owned like if I was wearing soaked toilet paper!

 

That has been my experience as well. After reading reports from beta that Tactics build were great for PvP, I was eager to try one for myself. Now, maybe I was just doing it wrong, but I find myself much more effective in Shield Spec (and I can also Guard a squishy or two).

[ururururu]

no single abilities can kill anyone outright in warzone PvP, even assuming u fully crit with all the damage wave and had maxed out surge so that's a bit of an exaggeration but it is quite useful as it is among the few AoE ability that can be aimed after fired.

 

True, but I've seen 8k hits followed by 3.5-4k hit on operative/scoundrel video. I suspect snipers & gunslingers have similar burst on cloth. They can kill in a CC duration.

 

I haven't had much trouble with them but then again my vanguard is only 30. My juggernaut at 44 does pretty well against them...

Edited January 4, 2012 by ururururu