Recent actions against some customer accounts

[PjPablo]

No.No.No.No.No.

 

They did NOT suspend accounts for people looting containers. Please stop perpetuating this lie.

 

They warned people and in some cases temporarily suspended accounts for exploiting the game in ways which breached the EULA and TOC. As part of this exploit they were able to instantly reset the timer on containers.

 

Please stop being wilfully ignorant and stubborn.

 

You can loot as much as you want from which containers you want - that is perfectly normal gameplay. What you cannot do is use exploits to loot containers.

 

God, why is this so hard to understand?

 

Because its not true. Unless BW clarifies to the contrary it does appear you can be warned for farming too much for your own use. Read the thread.

Edited January 3, 2012 by PjPablo

[Adam_Nox]

No.No.No.No.No.

 

They did NOT suspend accounts for people looting containers. Please stop perpetuating this lie.

 

They warned people and in some cases temporarily suspended accounts for exploiting the game in ways which breached the EULA and TOC. As part of this exploit they were able to instantly reset the timer on containers.

 

Please stop being wilfully ignorant and stubborn.

 

You can loot as much as you want from which containers you want - that is perfectly normal gameplay. What you cannot do is use exploits to loot containers.

 

God, why is this so hard to understand?

 

Uh, because Bioware didn't specify how they exploited?

[NinaV]

Yeah, the arguments claiming freedom for exploitation are built on solid foundation, and, keeping in the spirit of game and sportsmanship.

 

/sarcasm

 

Exploitation in the way of breaking the rules is one thing. To open a chest to loot it is exploitation of another kind and really intended. It is not exploitation against the TOS to plan the opening of the chest either, just like it isn't against the TOS to group and cooperate in a dungeon or with your friends outside the game to achieve better results within the game.

 

That it is antisosial, probably unhealthy for the game and quite poor game design, that is true.

 

However, this being a game, a virtual reality and real for everyone that plays it, do I hope such mechanics change because it is really boring if game mechanics like that is what will dictate if you succeed in the many small and big tasks to progress your enjoyment and character.

 

Still, the players can't really be blamed for this.

[graymule]

Because its not true. Unless BW clarifies to the contrary it does appear you can be warned for farming too much for your own use. Read the thread.

 

Again - have you heard of ANYONE else being banned or warned for looting ANYWHERE but Ilum?

 

Have you heard of ANYONE else being banned or warned for camping ANYWHERE but Ilum?

 

No?

 

So what is more probable then? That these instances of looting were done exploiting a known, well-documented gameplay mechanic?

 

Or that Bioware just happened to say

 

"Say what guys, why don't we go ban a few people somewhere for looting too much. [Rolling dice] Hey everybody, looks like it's Ilum. We'll just be vague and circumspect when in reality we just like banning people. Muahahahah"

 

Well? Which sounds more probable?

 

Again, common sense.

[Your_Ad_Here]

Which in any other MMO out there is fine behavior. Hell, in EQ you HAD to camp mobs. If people want to sit there for hours so be it. If I want to run around all day and do nothing but farm nodes that should be my decision. If you are going to tell someone they can't farm for their own use you start down a slippery slope. People already have a bad image of EA (for whatever reason I don't know). This just fuels that in their minds.

 

In all honesty (and yeah this thread is 75+ pages) I could care less what people do on a planet.

 

Camp a chest ... don't care.

 

What I DO care about is if the person is greifing and keeping me from doing a quest or blocking my progression. If that camper of the chest constantly kills a mob I need and even if I ask for him/her to stop because I need it for a quest and they continue? Yes that is greifing to me and will get reported.

 

But farm away. People do it in EQ2 and other MMOs all the time. (Of course using bots to farm is a bannable offense period).

[PjPablo]

Again - have you heard of ANYONE else being banned or warned for looting ANYWHERE but Ilum?

 

Have you heard of ANYONE else being banned or warned for camping ANYWHERE but Ilum?

 

No?

 

So what is more probable then? That these instances of looting were done exploiting a known, well-documented gameplay mechanic?

 

Or that Bioware just happened to say

 

"Say what guys, why don't we go ban a few people somewhere for looting too much. [Rolling dice] Hey everybody, looks like it's Ilum. We'll just be vague and circumspect when in reality we just like banning people. Muahahahah"

 

Well? Which sounds more probable?

 

Again, common sense.

 

Probably since Ilum is where you get the most bang for your buck. Why farm in Balmorra when I can go to Ilum and make far more? Once again, unless we see something to the contrary from BW, there are folks ON THIS THREAD who have received warnings for simply farming for hours and hours. Sorry, but that ain't exploiting.

[NinaV]

No.No.No.No.No.

 

They did NOT suspend accounts for people looting containers. Please stop perpetuating this lie.

 

They warned people and in some cases temporarily suspended accounts for exploiting the game in ways which breached the EULA and TOC. As part of this exploit they were able to instantly reset the timer on containers.

 

Please stop being wilfully ignorant and stubborn.

 

You can loot as much as you want from which containers you want - that is perfectly normal gameplay. What you cannot do is use exploits to loot containers.

 

God, why is this so hard to understand?

 

Why bring your god(s) into this?

 

Still, it might be so hard to understand because there hasn't been written anything about this being done through exploits.

 

It isn't even harassment, it is simply...farming, something you, I, everyone can do and likely need to do now and then.

[graymule]

Because its not true. Unless BW clarifies to the contrary it does appear you can be warned for farming too much for your own use. Read the thread.

 

I'll just quote myself a few pages back:

 

That would be like the police saying "We have found several people guilty of using the ATM located at [location] in [this way] to gain more money than what one types in.

 

Bioware would never divulge the exact way in which an exploit functions, just as the Police do not divulge all details about a crime. That would be extremely bad business practice on Bioware's part.

 

Stephen Reid has already said that every type of normal gameplay - including looting chests on high-level worlds if you can get to them [without using any exploit] is just fine and dandy.

 

I seriously do not get why you are all so paranoid about this.

 

Could Bioware clarify some more? Sure - but using one's own common sense also goes a long way.

[graymule]

Why bring your god(s) into this?

 

Still, it might be so hard to understand because there hasn't been written anything about this being done through exploits.

 

It isn't even harassment, it is simply...farming, something you, I, everyone can do and likely need to do now and then.

 

Just an expression of frustration - I sincerely apologize if you or anyone else were offended.

[rhirne]

Uh, because Bioware didn't specify how they exploited?

 

And they are not going to tell you what the exploit is; no MMO tells you "ohh here's the exploit people are doing" as it causes more problems in itself. They stated

... they were systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced.

 

Were there some false positives - I'm sure there were. But due to the nature of this exploit, it was bound to happen. But if you notice, most people received warnings - and not bans / suspensions. And remember, there are 2 sides to every story. Just because someone is here saying "All I was doing was farming chests and got banned / warned!" doesn't mean they aren't lying. BW has their story, and the customer has their story.

[graymule]

Why bring your god(s) into this?

 

Still, it might be so hard to understand because there hasn't been written anything about this being done through exploits.

 

It isn't even harassment, it is simply...farming, something you, I, everyone can do and likely need to do now and then.

 

From the very first post by Stephen Reid:

 

They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits.

 

How is that not clearly stated that the suspensions took place due to people using an exploit?

[PjPablo]

I'll just quote myself a few pages back:

 

That would be like the police saying "We have found several people guilty of using the ATM located at [location] in [this way] to gain more money than what one types in.

 

Bioware would never divulge the exact way in which an exploit functions, just as the Police do not divulge all details about a crime. That would be extremely bad business practice on Bioware's part.

 

Stephen Reid has already said that every type of normal gameplay - including looting chests on high-level worlds if you can get to them [without using any exploit] is just fine and dandy.

 

I seriously do not get why you are all so paranoid about this.

 

Could Bioware clarify some more? Sure - but using one's own common sense also goes a long way.

 

Disagreeing =/= paranoia.

 

I seriously don't get why you are ok with this. See what I did there.

 

And I don't expect BW to come out and explain an exploit. That would be idiotic. A simple confirmation or denial that one can be warned/suspended for farming for their own use would suffice. I would think with the volume of replies and concern that a simple statement from them would make sense. I do hope that farming 'excessively' isn't an offense, but I cannot tell based on the info shared so far.

 

As to why I care about this. I have always loved farming, accumulating wealth in game, and playing the AH in any MMO I play. I love the economy metagame. This kinda would ruin that for a lot of people. It may not be your cup of tea but it is to a lot of MMO players. Just Google the sites dedicated to MMO economies and wealth creation out there to see.

[rhirne]

Disagreeing =/= paranoia.

 

I seriously don't get why you are ok with this. See what I did there.

 

And I don't expect BW to come out and explain an exploit. That would be idiotic. A simple confirmation or denial that one can be warned/suspended for farming for their own use would suffice. I would think with the volume of replies and concern that a simple statement from them would make sense. I do hope that farming 'excessively' isn't an offense, but I cannot tell based on the info shared so far.

 

As to why I care about this. I have always loved farming, accumulating wealth in game, and playing the AH in any MMO I play. I love the economy metagame. This kinda would ruin that for a lot of people. It may not be your cup of tea but it is to a lot of MMO players. Just Google the sites dedicated to MMO economies and wealth creation out there to see.

 

Because it's been answered:

 

here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1060894#edit1060894

 

..... To be completely clear, while players may choose to travel to Ilum earlier than the recommended level (40+) and may loot containers if they can get to them, in the cases of those customers that were warned or temporarily suspended, they were systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced. ......

 

and here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1063347#edit1063347

 

Think about what you are agree too. they are saying you cant stand in a area for long term and kill mobs, clearing it so you can loot a chest. I'm not sure how this breaks any rules. They have worked for it, they killed the mobs, the earned the chest. Its not a quest item or mob. they are not hurting anyone else.

 

If that is the case, when you get a quest to kill 50 mobs in a single area they by rights are allowing you to break the rules temporarily? SO if there are only 3 camps that spawn said mobs and you hang out there for pre-set period of time I should expect a suspension or ban?

 

If they don't want me on a planet at level 10, then level lock the planet. problem solved.

 

I don't see how a level 30 is going to clear a level 50 area. So if a level 50 agrees to help the 30 clear it and get loot, again, if that isn't allowed why have guilds or groups. You cant solo black talon at 10, so if you go in there with a group of people you still haven't earned that loot, you didn't solo it.

 

if you want people to solo content, maybe a MMO isn't such a good idea?

 

I'd like to draw your attention to this part of the statement again:

 

... they were systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced.

The actions taken by these accounts - and again, this is a relatively low number - were not 'normal gameplay'. Everything you have listed above is what we'd consider 'normal gameplay'.

 

While we will not being going into further details of the accounts that were actioned against, suffice to say they were not conducting any activities similar to what you described.

[graymule]

Disagreeing =/= paranoia.

 

I seriously don't get why you are ok with this. See what I did there.

 

And I don't expect BW to come out and explain an exploit. That would be idiotic. A simple confirmation or denial that one can be warned/suspended for farming for their own use would suffice. I would think with the volume of replies and concern that a simple statement from them would make sense. I do hope that farming 'excessively' isn't an offense, but I cannot tell based on the info shared so far.

 

As to why I care about this. I have always loved farming, accumulating wealth in game, and playing the AH in any MMO I play. I love the economy metagame. This kinda would ruin that for a lot of people. It may not be your cup of tea but it is to a lot of MMO players. Just Google the sites dedicated to MMO economies and wealth creation out there to see.

 

I absolutely agree with you that Bioware could clarify a little bit more - but - it would not make an iota of sense on Bioware's part to arbitrarily ban people for looting and farming - unless there were some type of exploits involved.

 

That coupled with the fact that the suspensions only involved people farming at just that location where the exploit took place - well, I do not need to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce that exploit + people looting on said planet = reason for the warnings and suspensions

 

Should we hear of similar cases in other locations and unrelated to exploits I would be worried, but this has not been the case here.

 

And finally, I fully respect and would stand up for any way in which you enjoy the game - that's what I like about MMO's - that it caters to so many different playstyles and interests.

[NinaV]

From the very first post by Stephen Reid:

 

They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits.

 

How is that not clearly stated that the suspensions took place due to people using an exploit?

 

It is still not written that it is anything beyond opening chests and being prepared for chests to spawn.

 

Of course, I can hope, but then, hope goes both ways and we know how that often turns out within a virtual environment where people know that if they respawn, or even get deleted and banned to never get back, do they still have their lives intact, unmolested as one should expect from the luxury of gaming.

 

I do not have any stocks in any exploits, or any activities on Ilum so I don't really know the situation there. However I still do not like the idea designers use players as scapegoat for poor design, design that they now will need to change anyway (and really, if chests are so valuable and can influence so big parts of the in-game economy isn't it such a great idea anyway, looting is boring and random enough).

 

I do understand a wish to trust Bioware in this, still, the best can do mistakes and I think it is better to tell more specific what was the problems here. They do not have to post details about any actual exploits of mechanics at all, just stop being so vague that a 75 page thread is still growing. They can't blame the players for that either, only themselves and their marketing.

 

Again, I do understand a wish, or even knowledge (if you should have that) about Bioware's probable, OR possible, good intentions, but as stated is it obvious that many are not convinced (and neither am I, so I guess I am one of the stupid ones there, either for wanting better reasoning, clarifications and possible change of solutions).

[xngxng]

"Wall of quotes"

 

I still believe the customers should not be responsible for how to make the game economy work, the devs should be able to prevent this sort of stuff. Looting should never be an issue as they have full control of how much content is dropped by containers and mobs.

[ruminate]

I'm watching a level 15 player on Ilum right now clicking on a chest as soon as it pops up. There are level 50 enemies RIGHT BESIDE HIM and he's not even being attacked. He doesn't respond to tells either so its clear he's botting.

 

BioWare needs to take more action rather than a simple suspension.

Edited January 3, 2012 by ruminate

[jedikalinis]

Dont blame the company for cheaters. There are only so many mechanics a dev can put in place.

 

People need to grow up and stop blaming companins for banning cheaters. These people ruin games.

 

Its like defending a hacker who steals account info and uses it and put all blame on companies i dont get it.

 

Hackers belong in jail and cheaters deserver to be banned. Its simple.

[PjPablo]

I'm watching a level 15 player on Ilum right now clicking on a chest as soon as it pops up. There are level 50 enemies RIGHT BESIDE HIM and he's not even being attacked. He doesn't respond to tells either so its clear he's botting.

 

BioWare needs to take more action rather than a simple suspension.

 

Report them. If they are botting they need to be perm banned.

[graymule]

It is still not written that it is anything beyond opening chests and being prepared for chests to spawn.

 

Of course, I can hope, but then, hope goes both ways and we know how that often turns out within a virtual environment where people know that if they respawn, or even get deleted and banned to never get back, do they still have their lives intact, unmolested as one should expect from the luxury of gaming.

 

I do not have any stocks in any exploits, or any activities on Ilum so I don't really know the situation there. However I still do not like the idea designers use players as scapegoat for poor design, design that they now will need to change anyway (and really, if chests are so valuable and can influence so big parts of the in-game economy isn't it such a great idea anyway, looting is boring and random enough).

 

I do understand a wish to trust Bioware in this, still, the best can do mistakes and I think it is better to tell more specific what was the problems here. They do not have to post details about any actual exploits of mechanics at all, just stop being so vague that a 75 page thread is still growing. They can't blame the players for that either, only themselves and their marketing.

 

Again, I do understand a wish, or even knowledge (if you should have that) about Bioware's probable, OR possible, good intentions, but as stated is it obvious that many are not convinced (and neither am I, so I guess I am one of the stupid ones there, either for wanting better reasoning, clarifications and possible change of solutions).

 

You're quite right that the issue revolved around looting containers and waiting for them to respawn. But...

 

Let me ask you: If you were to be on Tatooine, finding a chest and opening it and seeing it respawn 1 second later, would you not think that something were amiss. Say you looted that respawned one right away and it respawns again 1 second later. Would you still think that it was normal?

 

Multiply that 20 times - please then do not tell me that you would not be aware that what you were doing was intentionally exploiting a bug or flaw in the gameplay mechanics that allowed this behaviour?

 

Can you not see that this is in no way related to normal gameplay?

 

Also, I do not think Bioware is using players as scapegoat for bad design. As has been said before, it is impossible to fully test a game of this magnitude and to foresee all the ways in which enterprising players find ways to abuse the game mechanics.

 

Just as the first person designing a hammer could not be held responsible for someone later finding out that a hammer might be good for banging someone with. Would you acquit the person using a hammer in such a way also? Hey, not his fault that it could be used that way, right?

[Darth_Nikon]

You're quite right that the issue revolved around looting containers and waiting for them to respawn. But...

 

Let me ask you: If you were to be on Tatooine, finding a chest and opening it and seeing it respawn 1 second later...

 

Can you not see that your strawman examples here are obviously far more egregious than the actual situation?

 

You're arguing for "common sense" and "plausibility" in a fictional constructed world. And then trying to back it up with examples that stretch the boundaries of plausibility in that fictional world.

 

Never mind that "common sense" and "plausibility" are by any means 100% objective measurements to begin with.

 

It would make a lot more sense to acknowledge that EA/BW just stuck their foot in it this time, poorly handling something that didn't work as they intended, instead of trying to blame players who took advantage of it or simply blundered into it.

[xngxng]

Let me ask you: If you were to be on Tatooine, finding a chest and opening it and seeing it respawn 1 second later, would you not think that something were amiss. Say you looted that respawned one right away and it respawns again 1 second later. Would you still think that it was normal?

 

I for one would certainly consider myself lucky I didnt have to walk too far to the next gathering spot, if Bioware didnt use their player base as scapegoats for their bad game design I certainly wouldnt expect to be banned or suspended for looting the container. They have the power at any time to remove the container from the game, lock it or even make it drop nothing. They also have the power to remove the items/credit I've looted from my inventory if they see fit.

 

And one more thing, you who are pro-banning players using their gathering-professions and the like might be a bit shocked by this, but they could actually speak to the player saying they're not meant to loot that chest so often or gather that material in such a high extent. Sorry about the last statement, didnt mean to cause any heartattacks out there.

 

*150 dark side points*

Edited January 3, 2012 by xngxng

[inseeisyou]

I'm glad to see they are being vigilant to control those who are exploiting the game.

 

Inevitable? Sure. Dosn't mean they should just let them have free reign.

[Ancientwolfgr]

People complaining about being reprimanded for exploiting a oversight and blaming it on poor design need to move on to another game or deal with what the administration deems as bannable- you wont be missed, trust me.

[Crossfaded]

Please stop complaining about how if you do something you know is wrong, you'll get banned. No, it's not the company's fault that people went out, found an exploit, and exploited it. This is a hand in the cookie jar scenario folks, that's it that's all. Farming for yourself is one thing, but in the main point it was clearly cited that the accounts shut down were taking deliberate actions related to gold farming. They don't have to explain to you what that is. All they have to do is put the rules in place. Mistakes may be made along the lines, but getting in touch with them might fix it.

 

At the end of the day, if you really want to continue complaining about how they are choosing to run the game, go actually read that Terms of Service that people tend to just skip. Everything you need to know is clearly established as to what you can and can't do.