Recent actions against some customer accounts

[graymule]

In no way does he talk about colluding with the opposite faction either. He says exploit and explains exactly what the player was doing "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers..."

 

Stephen Reid even says "They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits."

 

Emphasis on "decide to be game exploits." They decided that "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers..." was an exploit.

 

That's exactly what he said and there is no reason to believe otherwise until some other proof or announcement is made.

 

EDIT: Did you just make up the colluding with the opposite faction bit entirely or what?

 

No, he does not say that specifically. That would be like the police saying "We have found several people guilty of using the ATM located at [location] in [this way] to gain more money than what one types in.

 

Of course Bioware does not go right out and say exactly what the exploit was in detail. Blizzard has not in the past done so either. Would not be good business practice.

 

And no, I did not make it up. I read about it here on the forums from people who seemed to know what they were talking about, and it sounded very plausible. I have not stated it for a fact - I actually in my original post said "seems to be [due to colluding]..." not "is".

[humpacactus]

No, he does not say that specifically. That would be like the police saying "We have found several people guilty of using the ATM located at [location] in [this way] to gain more money than what one types in.

 

Of course Bioware does not go right out and say exactly what the exploit was in detail. Blizzard has not in the past done so either. Would not be good business practice.

 

And no, I did not make it up. I read about it here on the forums from people who seemed to know what they were talking about, and it sounded very plausible. I have not stated it for a fact - I actually in my original post said "seems to be [due to colluding]..." not "is".

 

Then as it stands Stephen Reids directly explains what he means by exploit.

 

He directly states they had been exploiting the game by "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced."

 

With only that paragraph to go off of there is really nothing more to discuss. Bringing up what other people had said in this forum is pretty pointless unless they provided some shred of proof.

Edited January 3, 2012 by humpacactus

[graymule]

Then as it stands Stephen Reids directly explains what he means by exploit.

 

He directly states they had been exploiting the game by "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced."

 

With only that paragraph to go off of there is really nothing more to discuss. Bringing up what other people had said in this forum is pretty pointless unless they provided some shred of proof.

 

Well, here is where we get to that wonderful thing called "common sense" and deduction. Have you heard of anyone being banned or warned for excessive farming on any other planet than Ilum? Have you heard of any other exploit in regards to farming other than on Ilum? Where did the forum posters say that colluding with people of the opposite faction took place? Ilum.

 

Now, I don't know about you, but to me that is quite indicative that the exploit Stephen is talking about IS in fact the pvp exploit on Ilum which led to the warnings and temp-bans.

 

Is it inctrovertible proof? No, but add to this fact that this game is serious business for Bioware. Would they really arbitrarily just ban people for looting if said looting did not involve exploiting an unforeseen game mechanic? Well, I for one do not think so. That would - again - not be good business practice.

Edited January 3, 2012 by graymule

[zittra]

You should use your force, to communicate with the players not punish them, because the game is full of bugs, and the FPS is horrid even with high end computers. How dare you punish us after we bought this full of bug game wiuthout any costumer support???

[monegames]

Well, here is where we get to that wonderful thing called "common sense" and deduction. Have you heard of anyone being banned or warned for excessive farming on any other planet than Ilum? Have you heard of any other exploit in regards to farming other than on Ilum? Where did the forum posters say that colluding with people of the opposite faction took place? Ilum.

 

Now, I don't know about you, but to me that is quite indicative that the exploit Stephen is talking about IS in fact the pvp exploit on Ilum which led to the warnings and temp-bans.

 

Is it inctrovertible proof? No, but add to this fact that this game is serious business for Bioware. Would they really arbitrarily just ban people for looting if said looting did not involve exploiting an unforeseen game mechanic? Well, I for one do not think so. That would - again - not be good business practice.

 

but he never said they used an exploit. exploiting does not mean using an exploit. exploiting means using for gain/profit. and he mentions doing it excessively. if it was using an exploit why worry about them using it excessively? using exploits is strictly prohibited in the TOS and can be cause for a ban. excessively using exploits should definitely be grounds for a ban dont you think?

Edited January 3, 2012 by monegames

[Mazaroth]

So if players what to spend all day farming credits for their own use they can be warned or banned? That doesn't seem right and runs contrary to maintaining an open economy.

 

I think it's more than just farming the lockboxes. The team just doesn't look at what you were farming but also what you did with the items/credits after.

[monegames]

I think it's more than just farming the lockboxes. The team just doesn't look at what you were farming but also what you did with the items/credits after.

 

and even if they sold them on the GTN how does that change what they were doing. I am not talking about the ones that got banned those were gold sellers. i am talking about the ones that they did not associate with gold selling.

[humpacactus]

I think it's more than just farming the lockboxes. The team just doesn't look at what you were farming but also what you did with the items/credits after.

 

This is not the case. Some people had been temporarily banned and warned for "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced."

 

That is why people are upset.

 

The gold sellers are a completely separate issue and of course should be banned.

Edited January 3, 2012 by humpacactus

[graymule]

but he never said they used an exploit. exploiting does not mean using an exploit. exploiting means using for gain/profit. and he mentions doing it excessively. if it was using an exploit why worry about them using it excessively? using exploits is strictly prohibited in the TOS and can be cause for a ban. excessively using exploits should definitely be grounds for a ban dont you think?

 

Well, I think there is a huge difference between exploits. Using say, third-party software to change game mechanics and exploiting / using them for your own gain = instantly perma-ban.

 

Exploiting known bugs and / or unintended game mechanics for your own gain = warnings followed by tempbans - and then followed by harsher measures. And this is again, what I believe, happened here.

 

And exploiting does not mean just "using" for gain / profit. It means circumventing and / or finding loopholes to further your own needs - often to the detriment of others. It is a vast difference between "using" and "exploiting". Using as a word has both positive and negative connotations. Exploiting does not have any positive connotations at all.

[monegames]

Well, I think there is a huge difference between exploits. Using say, third-party software to change game mechanics and exploiting / using them for your own gain = instantly perma-ban.

 

Exploiting known bugs and / or unintended game mechanics for your own gain = warnings followed by tempbans - and then followed by harsher measures. And this is again, what I believe, happened here.

 

And exploiting does not mean just "using" for gain / profit. It means circumventing and / or finding loopholes to further your own needs - often to the detriment of others. It is a vast difference between "using" and "exploiting". Using as a word has both positive and negative connotations. Exploiting does not have any positive connotations at all.

 

no the definition of exploit is:

 

ex·ploit

2    [ik-sploit]

verb (used with object)

1.

to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.

 

which i see has a positive connotation.

[Kurtayn]

Since you can get in trouble for posting exploits, I will not do so. However, if you really don't know what these people were doing to get warned and suspended, I hear google works great.

 

I for one am glad that they are actively going out and pursuing credit farmers. I get very agitated when I'm trying to play a game and I get about 10 messages a minute spamming me websites to go buy credits.

[monegames]

Since you can get in trouble for posting exploits, I will not do so. However, if you really don't know what these people were doing to get warned and suspended, I hear google works great.

 

I for one am glad that they are actively going out and pursuing credit farmers. I get very agitated when I'm trying to play a game and I get about 10 messages a minute spamming me websites to go buy credits.

 

there is a difference between someone selling credits and someone farming resources(even credits) for themselves. the gold sellers got banned and the ones that farmed for themselves got suspended.

 

again it does not say anywhere in this post that anyone was using an exploit only that they were exploiting loot containers by systematically and excessively farming them.

[xngxng]

Since you can get in trouble for posting exploits, I will not do so. However, if you really don't know what these people were doing to get warned and suspended, I hear google works great.

 

I for one am glad that they are actively going out and pursuing credit farmers. I get very agitated when I'm trying to play a game and I get about 10 messages a minute spamming me websites to go buy credits.

 

It's a WoW-copy-mmo, farming is forced upon you.

[graymule]

no the definition of exploit is:

 

ex·ploit

2    [ik-sploit]

verb (used with object)

1.

to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.

 

which i see has a positive connotation.

 

I'm sorry, but quoting a dictionary does not make a word carry positive connotations. The word might have originated with having positive connotations but I dare you to watch any news channel on TV during one year and try to find a single circumstance where the word "exploit" is being used in a positive light. I don't think you'll find it.

 

The dictionary simply describes what the word means, not the positive or negative connotations it carries.

 

Now, had Stephen been talking about using I would react strongly - but that wasn't the case here.

 

Also, in addition to the dictionary definition of the word, you have to take into account the meaning and connotation it has inside the videogame industry. If one were to consult a videogame industry dictionary (if one were to exist) I would not be surprised to find that it means:

 

ex·ploit

2    [ik-sploit]

verb (used with object)

1.

to utilize an unintended gameplay mechanic in such a way as to, knowingly or otherwise, gain the type of personal advantage that is in direct breach of the EULA and TOC.

Edited January 3, 2012 by graymule

[tommion]

Break with mmo tradition--Ban all credit sales/transfers-end of gold farmers. Each toon has to make their own credits. That would solve a lot of issues but probably pee a few folk off.

[Suzina]

I trust Bioware's judgement.

[Gilbara]

Quite obviously that is not what he said by a long shot. How do you get that from they were banning people for selling credits?

 

hey leggomy, it's me gilbara from lotro

[MrJohnson]

If people are being warned/suspended for simply working on farming mats or credits for themselves then I am going with it being a weak as can be policy.

 

The only exception I would say is obvious, if they are botting or the like then that is a no brainer and they deserve to be banned. If a person is simply farming for themselves for whatever reason, and not cheating, it is lame to say they are wrong. The only other things I can think of are taking a character somewhere they are not ready for, or if a log showed some crazy activity of someone sitting for 12 or more hours on one spot just clicking one area...but then again I would cry a straight "bot" call on that...that or they are dead and twitching on the mouse or possibly the guy from Make Love Not Warcraft (in which case we are all screwed anyways then).

Edited January 3, 2012 by MrJohnson

[FullMetalPanicNL]

I don't get the complaining. I for one am VERY happy they are trying to keep the goldsellers out....Goldsellers are a HUGE annoyance for me and a lot of people.

 

Also....why would having an Insane ammount of money be any good? As long as you have enough to pay for what you need.

 

And lastly, it's in the terms of service. You don't agree with it? Well tough...you signed it.

 

As long as Bioware is reasonable to normal players I am fine with it.

[Nippon]

Glad to see a company take a firm and direct approach to possible Gold farming, Bottom line is anybody doing these activities, was blatantly abusing the system, so good riddance and goodbye...

 

Hopefully this will act as a major warning to any future Farmer's....Nobody has an excuse for farming a Boss chest over and over and over again, If you want to play the game then play it, travel to a variety of boss chests.

 

On a side note, if anyone was doing this honestly, which I highly doubt, and they can prove it, im sure Bioware will reinstate there accounts...

 

Keep up the good work team....There is no place in MMO's for Gold farming, It ruins MMO's.

[monegames]

I don't get the complaining. I for one am VERY happy they are trying to keep the goldsellers out....Goldsellers are a HUGE annoyance for me and a lot of people.

 

Also....why would having an Insane ammount of money be any good? As long as you have enough to pay for what you need.

 

And lastly, it's in the terms of service. You don't agree with it? Well tough...you signed it.

 

As long as Bioware is reasonable to normal players I am fine with it.

 

gold sellers are one thing and those got banned. people farming for their own use is completely different and warnings/suspensions for that i can not agree with.

[Lovesong]

I strongly disagree with the actions taken against non - goldsellers but I agree that goldsellers should be removed forever from the game.

 

Before I voice my reasoning, please understand that I have a (non formal) background in game theory, ethics and political science, so this comes from an educated position.

 

So here is my reasoning:

 

1. A rule agains "exploiting" is wrong, because it can't be stated clearly enough what constitutes and exploit and what not... the player may simply find himself in a position of "oh, crates... I found this and this is really good, so maybe the high amount of credits are the reward of me being such a clever person... I LOVE THE DEVELOPERS OF THIS GAME!!"

 

(Yes, I am serious here.)

 

So - "exploits will lead to sanctions" is a rubber - paragraph.

 

This leads to:

 

2. Trust issues

 

Yes, I openly admit that I have trust issues now with BW. Will I get banned or suspended for sending my two companions out all the time for archeology and treasure hunting while I do the Hutta ball game?

 

Yes? No? Is this an exploit? Seriously?

 

Think about it:

 

When one stands on Illum farming crates with a low level character... what is the actual difference? Both activities are allowed by the game code, most probably also by the game data files (such rules are often encoded as game assets)?

 

Can I be 100% sure that BW wants me to send out my companions farming treasures and archeology stuff while I play ball games to entertain the Hutta guys?

 

---

 

Conclusio:

 

There is a rule, it goes: "nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali" (Paul Feuerbach), which means:

 

"No crime, no punishment when there is no law against it already in existence."

 

There was no law against "going to Illum as a low level character farming crates".

[xngxng]

Keep up the good work team....There is no place in MMO's for Gold farming, It ruins MMO's.

 

Suspending paying customers for just looting ingame containers is just fascist.

[Master-Nala]

So if players what to spend all day farming credits for their own use they can be warned or banned? That doesn't seem right and runs contrary to maintaining an open economy.

 

Play the game as its intended and you'll have no problems. This is not a sandbox. If all you're doing is running around Ilum at low level trying to get containers, then you aren't playing the game. You're trying to distort the intended difficulty, for yourself or others.

 

Glad they took the actions they did.

[monegames]

Play the game as its intended and you'll have no problems. This is not a sandbox. If all you're doing is running around Ilum at low level trying to get containers, then you aren't playing the game. You're trying to distort the intended difficulty, for yourself or others.

 

Glad they took the actions they did.

 

why allow lower levels on Ilum then?

 

there is no intended difficulty since there are no mobs in the area. if a level 50 went into the area they would face the same difficulty that the level 16 would have faced.

Edited January 3, 2012 by monegames