The arrogant social engineering of the ant-meter lobby rises to the top again and again. You feel like you have the right to engineer our behavior. Why?

Quit throwing up red herrings. I'm asserting that I have the right to know any combat data going on in my area. Allowing you to perform combat that I'm mysteriously unable to "read" is asinine. This is the sum and total of my position on this issue.

It actually is quite a bad idea. A game cannot be balanced and designed around the concept of sub-optimal play. It just isn't coherent.

Quit trying to falsely correlate Bots and things like ShowEQ with "lua-style" addons.

Pretty much. This tells me that their long term plan really is something like "voice acting and lots and lots of alts."

Never mind guys, he pulled an emotional trump card so we all lose the argument forever. Now we can't argue against him without being cruel to women. Too bad, I wish I could've found a way to play the image of a woman in tears to support my argument. It really cuts down on having to prove anything.

Harder, but in a *very* lame way. It's harder in the same sense that FPSs are harder with gamepads. If raids are balanced around heavy tool use they're more likely to be white-knuckle tight-tolerance affairs. If they're based around a really basic stock UI they'll be a lot more tolerant.

I apologize for nothing. PUGs *do* require accountability. Nobody should be kicked for not being in the 99th percentile of damage for their class, but being in the 10th percentile is just a big "**** You!" to the rest of your pug. And yes, you can look very active and not be doing ****.

I wasn't so much sick of Trion, but sick of the people that kept demanding stuff just like here. People wanted the combat log disabled in Rift since day 1.

Besides, what good is it going to do if they just respec from "Whatever icons looked cool last Thursday" to "whichever icons look cool today?"

So we have to be ghettoized so that the casuals can remove all accountability from pugs?

I am as sure that the game cannot survive on altitis and voice acting as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow. They're not going to achieve some kind of casual RP paradise, they're just going to torpedo the game and then desperately try to revive their raid scene once it's too late.

I actually don't "hate casuals." I just hate the way a certain extreme subset of them is intent on forcing us to play with a clunky UI and next to no hard data.

Hah, that is definitely true. I know I can be a jerk, but I just get sick of the smugness of the so-called "casual" movement that seems ready to casually take a meataxe to anyone who dares not agree with them. This started with the Rift launch for me, so my anger at these people has been simmering for quite a while now.

So it really is "Hurr derr voice acting" after all, huh? A year and a half of voice acting! That's their plan, is doling out little bits of voice acting? Why the hell does that cost $15 a month?!

Their entire argument amounts to this! The only argument they have is that damage meters are exclusively used by jerks. They literally cannot do as you ask and still hold the position they do.

They don't view this as a threat. This is precisely what they seem to want.

When they call us E-Peeners and jobless fatties that doesn't count.

No, that's actually the plan. Bioware is dumb enough to try it and these people are dumb enough to believe it. Raiding and PvP were lies all along! Getting 97 characters to level 20, that's where the action is!

Yep. Have fun figuring out who just caused the wipe. Oh wait, they're going to make everything super duper laid back so that you only wipe if you're literally sleeping. So have fun I guess.

EVE is a different beast though. It's not a WoW clone. My arguments for metering and such are all applicable in the WoW clone space. As someone who played EVE for all of a few weeks I wouldn't dare go toe-to-toe with you in any discussion about that game

I feel that my assumption was reasonable given what I had seen of you. I'll say nothing more on that point. This is trivially true. Admitting this proves only that you aren't crazy. That was only half the issue. Subtle DPS freeriding is a pretty big issue when you can't track it. They're going to do whatever they damn well please, of that I have no doubt. After seeing the cute little italicized "your" I'm pretty sure they're just going to be like "Hurr derr Voice acting" and be shocked when this all goes down in flames in a few months.

<3 Right back at you.

Except that it's a hamburger that somebody is charging steak price for. As if that wasn't bad enough every time I ask for cheese some lactose intolerant person says that it would be unfair for me to have it.

I'm not making the mistake that Truga does. He tries to be reasonable and he still gets tarred and feathered as an "elitist." Hell, he even takes the same positions you guys do, but that's not good enough. You want our kind removed from your little gated game of paddycake, and so we're leaving. What's the problem? Yeah, I'm making a little noise on my way out. That's my $60 worth.