It also puts into perspective that Theron was never at any point intentionally trying to harm Lana or the commander as he has subdued force users as well as reacted faster than sith/jedi masters before.

Honestly the most powerful would be Knight, he defeated the emperor the first time AND shook off the emperor's control. 2nd or rather the most attuned to the force would probably be Inquisitor/Counsular, especially with Inquisitor having the power to bind force ghost. It is also implied for the Consular that they had a stronger connection to the force at 8 than a master did at an older age. The academy also says they haven't seen someone with such a strong connection in decades.

Honestly? at this point, you could remove Lana. Her and Theron pretty much serve the same roles now, only she shows up more now. She serves at relaying information now rather than driving the story forward. So they've both taken a back seat, i've found that Lana had more "secretary" like scenes in this expansion where she's just telling the PC that she will prepare something or whatever then she goes off never to be seen until the mission end. "so how did it go commander", mostly stuff that can easily be said by other characters. This is basically most of the alliance companions now. They're all losing their character I hadn't noticed the shuttle part, but I did find it odd how our PC wakes up from the ends of Echoes of oblivion to Lana. Theron's whole reason for coming was you and satele, it seems very odd to me how you get knocked out and Theron just ups and jumps on a shuttle leaving you with Lana, they all do lmao I mean Bio, if you're going to allow him to come with us, make it make sense. But I guess they're trying. Did you play through the expansion without a romanced Theron? how was it? because for me Theron showed up a lot of times alongside Lana, like how they were always together during SoR. Some scenes they even had the old banter they used to. Does he consistently show up alongside her non-romanced? But yeah, for someone with that option, Theron still shows up A LOT more than the other characters with a kill option. I think they looked at the statistics and saw the vast majority saved him.

I personally did not kill Quinn. I feel in games like this, killing the interesting companions, only the player loses out. I remember first playing the Inquisitor class, I wanted so bad to kill Harkun, but then the game progressed, you meet up with him again, and you kinda get to see his perspective on things, and you start to think despite him being a dick, maybe you were a little pompous *** before. I don't agree that LI status isn't a valid point, it is. It's a huge part of this game, and plays a huge part in player investment. But it's a very valid point especially given the few options people have. For example the few popular LI's that could be romanced by both genders, should never have been touched. 5 newer companions could certainly replace what was lost, and they've done it before, when they booted our original companions to introduce Theron, Lana and co. Create new characters, give them depth, make them likable, put effort into the story, and you have a substantial group of new comps. The main issue here is, do they have the funds to even do that, short answer, probably no. I don't think this game will ever get that big of expansions that it did then.

Holy crap, you made me forget all about HK (you can't blame me, they dusted him so fast), he was one of the best new comers, and they got rid of him so fast to replace him with Scorpio. You just highlighted the main problem, it's not so much that they killed too many companions (I mean they did), it's moreso they killed off some of the better personalities on the team. In a perfect world, none of the characters in your list should have been touched with a death option. Theron faired a little better than most. Due to his popularity and existence throughout much of the expansions. He still shows up after frequently, usually whenever Lana does as well, I appreciated his inclusion in echoes of oblivion, and they're atleast TRYING to keep up the lana/theron dynamic that they had pre-nathema, but it still just seems.....off. Ultimately, I think they realize the Theron choice was a big oppsie, they've been trying to remedy that choice and make it up to the fanbase by keeping Theron almost as active as Lana in the newer stuff. But it's like if you were going to do that, you shouldn't have had the death choice in the first place.

Anyone ever look through this? pretty good read if you never read the comics https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/theron-shan-respect-thread-1650975/

I don't think that's a valid excuse, and I don't think you can blame the fans entirely now that i've thought about it. If Bioware writers want to listen to a few "kill this character" post on a board that's on them. It has always been clear that more people wanted these characters alive than dead. I can't think of many instances of character deaths that the overwhelming majority were ok with or agreed with. The majority of people to this day STILL think the Torian/Vette choice was dumb, i've even chatted in-game with people and practically everyone agreed that it was dumb. People still to this day think the Theron choice was dumb, even many of the dark side players which says a lot. They aren't making people happy with these choices, they've seen the response, but they kept doing it anyway. That's on them, not the few who just wanted the characters dead. I also think it's due to lack of having anywhere to go. They use these character deaths in the way that Walking Dead did. For shock, and brief subs. I also don't agree that Lana is the only one to carry things forward, she maybe the most recognizable now, but she's not really THAT present in the newer content to even justify the commander needing her that much. Mostly her role now is to just relay information the commander can easily get from their imperial and or republic officers.

I would have probably gotten blocked by the lead writer because I would have said my peace. Because.....that writing, dear god.

I can only imagine how it was for all of you around when nathema dropped lol. I did some skimming through a few of the 2017 pages, what an emotional rollercoaster. Good thing I wasn't playing this game then.

My guy, a train? and droid stopping Lana or Commander. After all the exploding things you escaped? Did you forget the many massive droids you all destroyed throughout the course of the game on foot? You have overthrown an entire godlike emperor and his godlike daughter, then went to another realm to defeat him again. A train? really? It didn't even do what he said it would, there was no disintegration. We're not talking about regular people like you and me here, if we were i'd probably side with you. These people are superheroes, who survive crazy **** on the regular, they operate on different rules than us. We're talking about a guy whom back on Rishi risked his life when he was already self-rescuing himself, literally at the front door, runs back to his "torture dungeon" through gunfire just to tell you he escaped after realizing you were there. I am 100% certain Theron would not endanger the commander unless he was completely certain. It would be completely out of character. I won't defend the piss poor writing, only the end result. I'm not saying the writing wasn't absolutely ridiculous, it was. It has been for quite a while and in many instances. I'm just looking past that god awful writing to see the context the writers intended, but were not compotent enough to portray entirely fluidly. This is what happens when you have something as rushed as Nathema was. They had to play catchup putting all the clues there for the player in such a rush, when they could have added more scenes showing Theron helping out the commander to make what he was doing a bit clearer. And it's not like it would have spoiled us, because we were already questioning the seriousness of Theron when he said he would take the crystals, but then took none. Hell they could have added the scenes at the end when you meet up with Theron displaying these things, in some SAW like relevation, but nope, rushed content. If you reread my post, I said it makes sense for a sith to do that (sith warrior was my first class), but even then you have to RP as either stupid or a massive hypocrite. But some people play that way, and sith are usually hypocrities to begin with, so that's fine. Gotten a bit off topic though, this isn't really about Theron, more about Lana being injected everywhere

No, he did not. Infact i'm quite baffled how so many still continue to say and rationalize this though the very arc made sure to tell you he did not. Even the friggin description after saving him says "seeming betrayal". Even the wik, STAGED betrayal. How some of you continue to call it that when even the writers don't agree is astounding. If anything you can call what he did drastic, but this is someone highly intelligent who has traveled with the commander since the events of Rishi and is well aware of what the commander can and can't handle. Batman knows a rocket launcher cannot harm Superman, Batman shooting Superman with a rocket launcher is intended to slow him down, not kill him. If you read his novel you'd know, he's a terrific shot, and a great fighter. If he wanted the commander dead, there was no need for all this craziness. Not only did he use a non lethal shot towards you, but shot out the window as well. And called you IMMEDIATELY after, he already knew you would get out of that. Infact he tells the chiss he's working with to stay in the vehicle "you'll never win", because he knew you would kill him. Ultimately, he got hurt more by Lana getting him captured than EITHER of you did by his antics. One was swept under the rug, and forgiven almost instantly after it happened. The other got a death option. Want to talk about putting people in danger. Lana put both you and Theron in danger with an unecessary rescue mission because she made a choice without any of your knowledge. Again one got consequences, the other did not. People can continue to rationalize how killing Theron wasn't a betrayal on their part all they want, or blame him for the destruction of the fleet, but the fact of the matter is, you would be dead, and Odessan would be destroyed right now without Theron. It was the commander, and crew who set these events in motion to begin with warring with Zakuul. Either way, they were getting what they needed, only without Theron the Commander and the Alliance would have been ignorant of what's coming. Say what you will about the methods. Theron's actions got 3 major weapons that would have killed trillions wiped out in his career. That said, for his lonewolf antics (which I in part understood, the character has practically been abandoned by everyone including his parents), Theron did deserve consequences. And if he really DID betray you then death would have been acceptable. But not after the arc told you the betrayal was fake. If anything it should have been A) Take Theron home B) Arrest/boot Theron from the alliance. The death option only really makes sense if you're playing a true sith lord who doesn't listen to reason or think logically at all. "don't care if you were loyal all long, die now derp derp". lol Quinn is an entirely different monster, by all means Quinn DID mean to kill you. He pretty much says that as he's apologizing, he served Barass. Totally different things. There was no double agentness involved with Quinn's attempt, he MEANT to kill you. He just failed lol Oh god, don't even remind me. Killing Acina was one of the biggest wasted opportunities for practically one of the few interesting Empire characters at the time. I hate the entire Iokath arc. That's when they started *********** up repeatedly. Who was in charge of writing during that time? yikes.

They were pretty much even for a time. During SoR, the events throughout Rishi and Yavin 4 especially if you were Pub player, Theron got more time, but if you were an Imp player Lana got more time. It changed in KOTFE when Theron was gone up until the midpoint of the storyline. Though they made up for it as Theron was heavily involved with the missions there on out, and the star fortresses etc while Lana barely got any side arc other than the main plot. Theron again got a whole arc (no matter how bad the pacing/writing was) while Lana again just remained a mommy to the PC while not actually getting her own side stuff. So one could argue Theron had more considering he got his own side content, and his own arc within the main plot. But I agree with your other point pretty much during and after KOTET the commander became less important, and now it's basically adventures of Lana and friends As much as I love SoR/KOTFE for introducing Lana and Theron (and especially Theron to us, I mean I probably would have unsubbed much quicker without the addition). Those expansions and the introduction of the alliance DID start the the PC on the path to becoming less important, and the game feeling less personal. Part of that also began with taking away our ship, and the personal moments with companions on said ship. The game opted for a more cinematic experience. Lana and Theron both appear on your original ship whenever you go on it, but gone were those 1 to 1 convos with your companions. Everything about Theron and Lana are said by them in the main story, and they are constantly in a state of keeping the story going forward. We can never just sit with them like the originals, everything about them being constantly connected to the main plot, so it feels less personal. I don't even know why they really gave us the ship back because it doesn't really serve the purpose it used to.

I don't think most people expect that, in reality only the core and popular ones will get that kind of attention, but not waking up to lana smiling in a non romanced character faces all the time like she's in some sort of non-established relationship with the PC isn't too much to ask for. I mean, the others make a valid point, at this point it has happened too many times to ignore

Don't forget how Vette basically forgets her and Sith Warrior have a long history together. After her initial introduction scene with Gault all her messages and such are the same that it is for every other class even if you are a sith warrior. That is the problem when you have bad writers, but introduced so many companions to keep up with. Probably why they tried to kill so many, but for a game whose real driving force is in huge part the SP stuff with the companions, it should be a MAJOR focus and not as lazy as it has been

So I just finished echoes of oblivion after a long hiatus of not doing so. You guys really weren't kidding about Lana being there when you wake up despite not romancing her AGAIN lol. C'mon Bioware this is the type of stuff that's losing you subs and the type of stuff that gets people to dislike a character, oversaturation with no real development is never good. Nobody wants to hear about their LI referenced by Lana, they want them there, they want that interaction not hear Lana discuss them LOL. You have the actors Bio (some of which voices other characters). It's not hard for a quick scene, and a few lines.

Luckily for Theron fans, he had the safety net of being beloved/popular, plus around for a long time, so he has been treated a lot better than the other killables post kill option. Also probably helps Troy Baker is easy to get a hold of since he voices other characters in the game too. Though it's still always going to be half assed now compared to how it would have been, like there are some characters Theron knew in the past from in his novel that you meet during onslaught, and all you get is a message "Hey I know that guy we did this together back on so and so, i'll tell you a story about it back on Odessan" No story was heard that day. Lame.

It's something that never made sense especially for Repub players (i've played both). Lana started out a lot colder for non romanced Repub players compared to Theron through the events of SoR. Even in the prelude to KOTFE she was colder to a non flirtatious repub character. It makes absolutely no sense for her to be a bigger BFF to repubs than Theron, but here we are. I'm betting the writers took a look at the statistics and were like oh no we made her too sithy for repubs, better turn the waifu meter up x10 for KOTFE

Pretty much this, we already had more than enough companions, but BW got too trigger happy, made most of them killable to the point they can't really use them in the main story anymore so they just exist as random show ups who just "Oh you're going to save the world, well not before you get a kiss honey, ok bye never see you again until I need to kiss you again". Got even more crazy when they started killing important faction specific companions killing any of the future conflicts that could have came out of it. Now that the story is going back to Repub vs Imps it would have been nice to see how Lana and Theron would conflict and interact with that, would have given Lana especially some much needed weight, but can't do that now. Now we're stuck with a bunch of bland stand ins. So if they did ever reset the board, don't make the same mistake twice. XIV has followed a similar pattern to WoW, XIV has been through multiple expansions from Heavensward, to Stormblood to Shadowbringers. Most of the core characters in all these expansions are still alive. Even the ones who were criticized by the fanbase like Lyse. And the story has only become stronger because of it. You play the original game, and none of the characters you knew then are the same as they are now, hell most of them aren't even the same class or have the same abilities they used to, nor the same motives, they have blossomed into entirely different beast over all 3 of the expanions along with the protagonist. That development can't happen with Swtor killing everybody left and right.

Written better, and paced better it could have been a much better pay off. But it might as well have not existed, as all it really did was ensure one character would be less used. And it made me like Lana less, as it pretty much killed the relationship between 3 characters I had thought existed before playing it. For me the biggest disapointment wasn't even the kill option, but the lack of feeling from Lana herself which should be equal if not almost equal to the love she has for you. You're telling me after all these years together, even after these two working together while you were in carbonite. THEY FRIGGIN CREATED A SECRET ENCRYPTED PROCESS TOGETHER. And that's all we got from Lana? Really? probably one of the immersion breaking intances for me in this game.

He's a very meme'd and disliked character/companion from Fallout 4. You think people hate Koth? think that hate x10 for Preston. Gotta say, I don't like the trend of both Bioware and Bethesda to go the extra mile in making the non-white characters as insufferable or unsalvageable as possible. It's like they always go out of the way to make people hate them lmao. I feel like Theron got a bit of that treatment as well with Nathema. They needed a whole *** random DLC just to sabotage the character and give people a reason to kill him.

People don't just hate Garvey for the quest spam. His voice acting is also terrible, he pretty much undermines the protagonist problems immediately with "go solve my problems instead". "My spouse died, and my son has been kidnapped" "Oh that's horrible, let me know if I can help........but you know.....these settlements bro, tenpines bro, here take this general status the people need help bro" LMAO, On top of this as a character he's pretty mediocre, again not helped by his actor's poor performance. Quest spam is just the icing on the cake. Because of Bethesda's poor pacing, MM serving as the tutorial faction for base building, and their trying to force Minutemen as the RIGHT faction very early on (the fact that even if you never speak to preston at sanctuary but he'll still drop you quest if you get too close to him was hilarious), they made Preston come off as very unsympathetic to the protagonist and moreso shoving all of his priorities and responsibilities onto a sole survivor who not only already saved their lives once, but should be a broken depressed mess at this time given the situation. But Fallout 4 has this issue throughout the game. Not only preventing actual roleplay but helping to break the immersion in the story they were trying to tell in the first place.

Bioware ain't slick. The quality of their games may have changed, but the writing patterns and tropes have not. As for Lana's appearance you'd be surprised, lots of people are into that sith look. I mean people are currently going crazy over the RE8 vampire zombie daughters....whatever you want to call them, afterall

LOL at that last bit but yeah, classic bioware. She's obviously pushed to be the LI for the majority male player demographic, but that's the thing not all of us are either male or interested in Lana in that way. So for them I guess it's great, but for the rest us, it's like ***** let me breathe. Liara syndrome all over again. Though Liara, over Lana anyday however.

Right, I like to see multiple characters mattering in the team, as opposed to one being everything in the team. My memory is not so great Onslaught/Echoes, but did Vette even show up like at all? She could have fit the intelligence role exquisitely had she not been killable. KOTET went so hard to show off how useful her skills were. And if you went through as Sith Warrior once before you already knew how useful her skillset was. You know what was great about the Sith Warrior role, and in part the Jedi Knight role as well. There were some strong callbacks in both to Mass Effect 2's end sequence with all your characters showing off their skillsets. I would like that back over Superhero Lana Beniko.

I can see this, as I said I recall multiple times where her remarks seemed flirtatious in intent. Bioware's writing style and tropes are pretty easy to detect by now. At any rate, she could use a vacation all together. Granted all the former characters have minor roles now, but she still gets shilled. Which wouldn't be much of a problem if she actually had any meaningful development or if her character ever became more than the commander's mom. But now, especially since the Theron option. She is the spy person, the intel specialist, the mission briefer, the diplomat. The person who shows up in scenes over your LI even when it doesn't make sense that she'd be there It's like *****, show off another character especially if you're not going to do anything with her. Being a main character Theron fans have gotten it better than others in terms of "showing up", but I can see how the fans of other characters can be upset. at Lana being a stand in for them LOL