DPS only matters in PVP if it's DPS on a single target. Someone who got 2.2k dps with it in arenas probably just aoe'd and DoT'd everyone, which is not really effective DPS by any means. It's MUCH more effective to focus and pressure a high-value target like a healer. While madness is no doubt effective, it's just nubbish to say "omg this spec is awesome it does 3k dps"...cuz that number at the end never accounts for your raw maximum dps on a single target... Meanwhile infiltration spec can easily pull off high DPS numbers(maybe not as high as madness but probably damn close), and you know that that character didn't waste 4 GCDs DoTing everyone in the arena, he spent 4 GCDs stunning and bursting their healer to 25 percent health so that your team could finish them off and snowball to a win. An infiltration spec sin is just about as hyper-efficient as it gets in terms of single-target DPS which is without a doubt the most important type of DPS in PVP.

People read and follow ops chat in all levels of pvp in pubs. That is not the problem, nor was it ever the problem.

I'm one of those republic scrubs and my pvp sucks because I'm new. Against imps we just get zerged on by their premades and can't do anything against their team comps and overall teamwork and strategy which admittedly trumps ours (though thats not saying much...we're mostly PUGs, the best on the imps side are in premades). Also to the people saying "just face people better than you and you'll learn" you have to realize that you learn nothing from facing people who are higher level, better geared, premade, and facing a group of PUG republics. Sure you can learn your defensive CDs better and try to focus one target, but there is no way you are winning that match when you are outgeared, outleveled, outmatched, outcomped etc. Yes, in SWTOR, being outcomped IS a thing. A well-balanced team that covers each other's class and spec weaknesses will trump a team of 8 random classes+specs just thrown together every time. You get better through close matches, not lopsided, uneven ones where you stand next to 0 chance, and can't really learn from your mistakes since the main reason you lost was being outgeared, outzerged, out-team-comped etc. We are talking about groups people that run balanced comps of juggs, powertechs, healers, and a marauder or two against people who are leveling up random classes on the pub side because they find them fun. There is a point where your "PVP skill" only takes you so far and there is nothing you can do against these well-thought out comps run by premades who are probably talking on skype or vent. I'm not complaining, just stating the truth. And I realize that I'm new and have a lot to improve upon in my PVP, but the fact is that there are far less PVPers on pubside who are willing to group up and zerg unranked WZs like the imps do. Being a great PVPer can only take you so far. So if you're an experienced pvper, please give pubside a chance on this server, you will help the nubs on our side like me out a lot. Thanks!

I understand that Shadows/sins have the best internal/elemental damage protection, but I still think they get melted by Pyrotechs and Powertechs using the middle tree, whatever that is. So if you face someone with a spec that shoots right through your armor, defense, and possibly shield rating (core example: Pyrotechs or their mirror class+spec), you will probably just die, because your DPS is nothing special compared to their massive DPS and their armor makes them tanky enough to resist literally all your attacks because it's all kinetic damage... That's the point I meant to make. I'm not saying Kinetic shadows are useless, they are really good (primarly through their annoyance factor and utility, not their damage, which is pretty crap) in objective-based PVP, which is pretty much what all PVP except arenas is. It's just compared to Guard/Jugg or Powertech/Vanguard they don't really hold a candle anymore. Pretty much the only thing they have over those two classes is stealth, which is not that useful if you're trying to sneak cap an objective (in which case, if you succeed, your opponents are likely inexperienced players...). Stealth is only useful for sneak-GUARDing objectives and also zerg-bursting people in Arenas. If you make a Shadow for PVP, it's generally better to go Infiltration to be a 1v1 god or Balance to be deceptively strong. Someone made a point earlier that due to their stealth (and other tools like phase walk+resilience+mind maze), they make the best node guardians in the game. I tend to agree. But then you have to remember that any spec can do that...not just kinetic. These days the primary reason to go Kinetic is to guard teammates and taunt enemies. Also force pulling people into fire traps in huttball and slowing 5 people at once is pretty awesome....In terms of actual tankiness and DPS though, they are fairly underwhelming.

Kinetic shadow is good in huttball in my experience. Just because if you start getting ganged on you can Force Slow and also your Force Speed lets you purge slows which people will use a lot on you. You can guard a healer and if they stick by you and heal you then neither of you will die probably. Also they are good in that door-bombing map because...well they're just hard to kill. So it's hard to lay a bomb with them around, especially if they have at least one healer. Problem with kinetic shadow is that you do basically no damage aside from PA+project and harnessed shadows+TKT. Your double strike is crap, everything damage wise is pretty crap. Basically you are decently tanky, have good shield chance, nice absorb, and you have Force Pull/Force Slow and...well that's it. Compare that to Jedi Guardians who can do all that, and STILL do good damage due to their abilities and have great utility with targeted jump skills which let them leap up to higher level platforms and such, something that Force Speed can't do. Also you can't really 1v1 anything that uses internal damage on you (it'll just rip you apart lol). Anyone who DOESN'T use internal damage will just focus other people other on your team if they are smart. So yeah if you wanna be an annoying mother****er in huttball go Kinetic Shadow, but if you want to do massive DPS and idk, actually KILL people, it's better to go Infiltration or Balance. And if you want the trifecta of DPS, tankiness, and utility, roll a Guardian/Juggernaut. Note that this is just for PVP, and just my opinion. I think Kinetic Shadows are great tanks in PVE.

EDIT: Go hybrid actually, 0/30/16 seems to work great.

Lol...yeah because transferring out will help the situation.