Windu absolutely bested sidious, but it wasnt so black and white. he bested him in the duel as far as lightsabers were concerned, but not in the fight as a whole. normally windu wouldnt be able to stand up to sidious in sabers, but mace was drawing on a power source not usually available to him, giving him a power boost. that power boost was the anger and darkness from sidious himself... mace windu's vaapad style lets him draw on the darkness inside himself, as well as the darkness inside his opponent, and release it to make him more powerful in a duel... seeing as he was battling the strongest sith lord ever, he was completely supercharged on sidious' power and was drawing on it to make himself stronger. On top of that windu had more rage than normal inside himself during that fight... finding out palpatine and sidious were the same person had hollowed him to the core. cuz mace windu also had a secret attachment, a secret love, and that was the republic. When his secrect love was threatened he had even more darkness and rage inside himself to draw on. that being said, windu stood no chance in the fight as a whole. palpatine could have ended it whenever he wanted im sure. but palpatine dueled him without force powers and "lost".. but sidious also allowed himself to be bested. Windu broke the window to lure sidious near the edge so he'd have to use the force to grip the floor against the winds. sidous let himself be lured out knowing windu would beat him, he wanted to be beaten. Sidious was faking fear and Windu drew on the fake fear to grow even more powerful... and thats when anakin walked in

that would be a yes... im in absolute agreement... and revan vs sidious? thats ammusing, and to be honest revan is my fav sith lord, but unlike revan fan boys, i know the limts of his power. he stands zero chance against sidious... he's not even in the top 3 as far as most powerful sith lords... probably not even top 5... i would say at least top 10 though... maybe around 9 or 10. whats the most annoying is i bought kotor the day it came out... and i liked revan the moment i saw him 10 yrs ago. when i started liking him, it wasnt cool to like revan. no one had even heard of him, he was underground. so naturally i started using revan in my screen names. then like 3 years later revan is completely mainstream with a cult following of fan boys completely over emphasizing his power. even though i have no disillusion of revans power, i cant go into any room, with my normal screen names, and not be grouped in with those kids... or be immediately called a revanite... its soooo annoying

a couple of these quotes say he's the most powerful, but most of these dont say anything about him being the most powerful sith lord that ever lived... just things he's done or can do. so im assuming ur posting them as evidence of just how powerful he really is and letting us do the math... i also want to note that some of the quotes could be argued against, where its based on a characters perception of sidious. Because if vader saying "By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." becomes canon fact.... then so does anakin saying "I'm more powerful than the chancellor, I can over throw him". in fact vader's perception of sidious is C-canon where its from a book, and anakins perception of sidious is G-canon where it was a movie by lucas. so in that comparison, Anakin being the most powerful would prevail, being as how G-canon > C-canon. even worse is this is the SAME character with different opinions each time... But again, this is someone's perception of sidious, and that is why it doesnt make it fact. But all in all i agree with your stance on it but i wanted to at least present how inconsistent canon can be sometimes, not to mention how it changes all the time... and these inconsistencies makes it so tough to debate anything.

i love how u just took 3 awesome things and combined them to make ur name.... lol

ok... i completely understand, u have zero tolerance for seeing this debate. completely understandable... let me guess, u didnt mind at first but as time wore on it just made u want to snap? thats how i feel about what i was saying. and good luck to u sir

way to make me feel bad lol... lets get one thing straight... im the one with his back against the wall being tag teamed by multiple people in the thread. im the one on defense. im pretty sure it was u who attacked my grammar bringing it personal. i thought that was the level id have to bring it to to properly defend myself. i honestly thought it was understood that anything goes and i wasnt try to offend u personally... but if i offended u, my apologies... and i want to note that im a very very stubborn person who rarely apologizes... i just have zero tolerance for people, who i feel arent thinking as in depth about things as they should, insulting me. iv been in waaaaay to many arguments on the net with immature people to have a tolerance anymore so i immediately go on the offensive and insult... im sure u must have known what u were getting urself into when u read my previous posts. for future reference... dont poke a lion and then wonder why he attacks u lol

i have said multiple times that its not so black and white, that u needed to look at the big picture and that there are different cirumstances where Vitiate would win... which u denied because of canon. Then u come back at me with Vader only won cuz of the circumstances... so in attempting to argue with me u have finally conceded and agreed there are certain conditions where sidious could be defeated by someone less powerful than him, which is the point iv been arguing all along, the philosophy of reality... canon should only be a guide line to help determine who we think MIGHT win... cuz reality is underdogs win all the time, even against opponents stronger then themselves... thanks for helping me win my argument

furthermore, ur inability to do the "math" and decipher whos the stronger between windu vs palpatine only furthers my point on how impossible it is for u to think for urself... G-canon didnt tell u who's stronger so ur completely lost and cant figure it out for urself? hahahaha.... its pretty basic... get ur head out of ur *** and use some common sense... u only prove ur a drone more and more everytime u open ur mouth... so we'll go over this one more time, 1) yoda = strongest jedi up to his time... as stated by canon meaning 2) windu < yoda 3)sidious = strongest sith.... and sidious defeated yoda meaning 4)yoda < sidious and if windu is less than yoda that means 5)windu < sidious now i know that may be hard to comprehend, where it wasnt lucas who programmed this into u, but it really wasnt that hard to figure out

it appears it is u who hasnt thought things through... 1. i said it doesnt matter how palp was beaten... u all claim its impossible... palp just sat there helpless when vader picked him up... id expect more from the most powerful sith lord thats ever lived... are u saying its completely impossible for Vitiate to pretend to be on Palpatine's side and strike when he's not paying attention? Cuz its pretty clear u are all stating he cant defeat Palpatine period... no matter what the circumstances... and thats where u are wrong... i said there are all sorts of variables that need to be accounted for... u claimed it didnt matter, sidious would win no matter what, no matter which situation canon says he wins... thats where i said u were all weak minded drones and there was more to it than that....who said this was a straight up fight? was Plagueis and Sidious a straight up fight? no it wasnt... but sidious defeated plagueis none the less 2. yoda was the strongest jedi who'd ever lived up to his point... windu was weaker than yoda... sidious is stronger than yoda, as made clear by yoda failing to kill him and being forced into exile... he knew he couldnt beat sidious so planned on using the skywalker twins to succeed where he failed... so its fair to say windu is less powerful than sidious... lets set it up like this windu<yoda<sidious... but that didnt stop windu from besting palpatine... all the variables that day were in windu's favor... windu had all the right conditions on his side hence why theres more to it then whos the most powerful... u have to look at the bigger picture... uv proven u can not... its not so black and white

okay u win that battle... i admit i said that but u gotta remember i wrote this in a fit of rage and it doesnt portray how i really feel... i was in infuriated with some other kid on youtube when i came across this forum and posted this... it angers me i cant reach through the moniter and just smack the **** out of people on the internet sometimes... i wasnt going to slap my gf or my daughter so i posted this... this is just a huge rant venting my frustration... im man enough to admit when im wrong and im wrong in this post...

please see above... im not writing a persuasive essay here... i know my grammar is incorrect from a literature stand point but trying to insult me on the lack of grammar i used on a post in a forum is sad... it really is... it shows u have nothing else to combat me with and just reveals ur desperation... do people write jk, brb, lol, imo, ***, btw, or idk in novels or any other official document where grammar is necessary... no they dont... this is the internet and other rules apply... i know how to use proper grammar and there is a place for it..... and a forum is not one of them. i dont use ".............................." these dots to break up what im saying when im writing an actual paper or piece of literature... only in text messages, posts of facebook, or forums... i dont write "u" or "ur" when writing real papers... yet again, my brain is smart enough to tell the difference between the 2...so please come at me with something better than lack of grammar... it just reveals how desperate u really are in the argument and reveals u have nothing else u can say... its like obama debating romney and obama owning romney... and romney having nothing to say back so he points out the obvious and tells obama he's black... nothing but a desperate attempt to cling on to something and stay alove in this debate... good job... come at me with something better... i'll wait

it was in an interview... i'll try and find it... i never denied sidious was the strongest... saying who's the strongest and saying who'd win in a fight are 2 different things... my point is anything can happen... sidious was way stronger than windu... but in windu's fight with sidious he summoned all his inner anger, along sidious' darkness, and channeled it through him with the 7th lightsaber style Vaapad... this gave him a huge power boost allowing him to match sidious in the duel (in lightsabers)... it says windu had a secret love.. a secret attachment, and that was the republic... so when it was threatened he had more darkness than normal inside himself to draw upon... his Vaapad style makes u walk dangerously close to the dark side and because so was forbidden to all but a few jedi... it allows u to turn the darkness inside u into something positive and also channels ur enemies darkness as well... so between his anger and sidious' darkness he was just supercharged... anakin decribed their fight as a blur, stating it was too fast for his eyes to follow... but canon says sidious>windu so windu should stand no chance... but extenuating circumstances allowed windu to best him (in lightsabers).. hence anything can happen and its not so black and white... im able to understand this... seems everyone else is not... why do u think people say 9 times out of 10... cuz theres always that chance that 10th time something miraculous happens... like windu beating palpatine... i however will agree the fight may have been over sooner if palp had used his force powers

what are u my english teacher? this is the internet, nobody uses correct punctuations... im not writing a piece of literature here... dont blaim me if ur brain is unable to keep up and needs a a paragraph break to catch its breath... i type like im talking... i u dont like it... dont use the internet... are u gonna ***** that i write u instead of you?

hahahaha, my evidence can be destroyed? thats laughable seeing as none of u have even attempted to destroy this argument... all anyone can say is canon... and matching up anyone with sidious is pointless cuz he beats anyone? well if my memory serves me correctly im fairly certain vader beat palpatine... doesnt matter how he did it ... the fact is that he did... so as i said there more to it then just who's more powerful... theres so many other variables to consider... sidious was also more powerful than windu but windu seemed to have beat sidious in their duel... and b4 u say sidious was holding back i feel its my duty to inform u that lucas himself states that sidious did not hold back in their fight and that mace had won the duel fairly... and if lucas says it it becomes g-canon... and by ur logic canon is absolute... so windu beating palp also defies canon... stop telling me its not possible when history shows it happening multiple times...

oh and furthermore u just wasted ur time looking up and quoting all this to prove something i already know and never denied... i actually state multiple times above that i acknowledge sidious is the strongest thats ever lived... so uv wasted ur time arguing in an argument thats not even taking place... im saying anything can happen... like how an xwing can destroy a death star even though the gap in their power is so incredibly huge that its not even funny... so if this is possible then why wouldnt it be possible for someone who's close to the same power as sidious be able to defeat him? vader was waaaaaaaaaay weaker than sidious but he seemed to have pulled it off... think outside the box and expand ur perspective to see the whole picture before u attempt to insult me when my mind seems to function higher than that of a mindless drone...

Yet again u seem to be too stupid to understand... i never denied sidious is the strongest... im quite aware of that and furthermore im know it says it everywhere... canon can only be used to speculate who might win... its not set in stone... canon says the death star was the most powerful "ship" ever built... but that didnt stop a single x wing from destroying it... Canon says sidious is the most powerful sith lord who ever lived... but that didnt stop vadet from killing him... just a few examples for u to "chew on". So lets repeat... destruction of death star and death of palp both defy canon cuz like i said before reality isnt always black and white... theres always shades of grey... and in those shades i think vitiate has the right nature of powers to defeat sidious... and as i said before thats just my opinion... im not a mindless drone... i can think for myself unlike most of u who just follow like sheep...

thank you for having a brain, im not kidding... i like discussing who might beat who because its fun to compare their powers and abilities and discuss ways their opponents might counter them... but there is always someone who can only say "canon says" and its infuriating. theres soooo much more to it then that... its so much more in depth and because i have a functioning brain i can stand back and see the big picture... idc who lucas says is more powerful... the pheonix was waaaaaay more powerful than wolverine but that didnt stop wolverine from beating her (i know this was only in the movie)... the gap in their power was massive, laughingly so but wolverine walked away snd she didnt... luke went before the emperor and vader, who both at the time were superior in power, and walked away the victor. canon says palpatine was the strongest ever right?... but if vader killed him then its not a long shot to say vitiate might as well... vader killing palpatine defied canon because reality isnt so black and white, theres always extenuating circumstances behind everything. you could be the most powerful being in history but someone could still be the "scissors" to your "paper"... its maddening how everyone mindlessly refuse to think for themselves like drones... they will only believe what theyre told... my saying vitiate would win is my opinion after analyzing the nature of his powers... i ackowledge that sidious is the stronger of the 2 overall without a doubt... sidious is unmatched with a lightsaber and thats where he really beats vitiate... but vitiate and sidious' force powers are in the same league. its the sith emperors ability to drop people by looking at them that impresses me... when he devoured nathema its like the entities of all those spirits are within him... anyway how i feel is my opinion from my own personal perspective on the two... but the fact people say canon cant make it happen are retarded... canon also says vader couldnt kill him... but guess who killed sidious? that'd be vader

well guess what ******, canon also says everyone here is wrong... if everything that comes out of lucas' mouth is canon then nobody here can use what palpatine did as a clone in this argument... in a 2008 interview lucas states that everything after return of the jedi never happened... his exact words are "vader does not come back, the emperor does not get cloned, and luke doesnt get married". so yet again we find ourselves on the brink of having everything we know about what happened destroyed because lucas opened his mouth... thats why he is a retard and im done with canon... please go and look at his interviews over the years and see how much he contradicts himself... starting from the 80's he talks about how he already has the scripts for VII-IX written and then he has plans for 3 more after because he needs 12 movies to tell the full story. then a few years later he says its a 9 part series... a beginning a middle and an end and thats how its always been even though a few years prior he said something completely different... fast forward a few more years and he says its only 6 movies and thats all its ever been... its the story of vader and thats it... ROTJ is the end of it and its always been that way... he says he's never written anything for after that but if we look back to the 80's he claims he already had the scripts done... he's a complete retard who cant keep track of what he says and just for the record he doesnt even own it anymore so **** what he says anyway... and im not some drone who's stupid enough to blindly believe what someone says as fact when its been been proven otherwise... to me what happened in the novels after ROTJ is what happened and always will be and nothing some old senile retard says will change that... canon or not... so **** canon and **** you too

1. i agree, mace windu beat sidious in that duel... but i dont think he'd win in force powers...there is no doubting Windu was an absolute monster with a lightsaber 2. lol, yeah i know my rant may have been a bit much. but it is just soooo maddening that everywhere i go that people refuse to put canon aside so we can actually debate on who'd really take a fight... any character george lucas has created has an unfair advantage against any eu character. i mean iv read fights where luke gets smacked around like a child but then im told that luke is really stronger than the guy who just handed him his ***... thats absolutely stupid... thats like watching one boxer pummel another for 10 rounds and then being told that the guy who just got beat up is the winner. really? cuz im pretty sure my eyes told me something different... lucas can say what he wants but iv been shown otherwise... jacen solo beat luke and 3 other jedi masters at the same time but luke is still stronger? uhhh no, i dont effing think so... the fun about debating whod win an a fight is comparing their abilities and talking about how they would counter them. so its really annoying to have someone come in completely uneducated and spew forth "canon says" filth when they have no idea what theyre talking about... here is one reason i was ready to flip out yesterday... something someone said to me on youtube when i proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that one specific character couldnt be stronger than the other... "G-canon still says you're wrong. a pity there's nothing you can do about it. gonna cry now?" do u understand how much i want to stab someone when i see this? i mean i presented an argument, gave facts from the vast amount of knowledge i have on the situation that without canon would have completely, without a shadow of a doubt, proved me right... and still this kid gets to be right when he's completely uneducated on the subject, has no clue what he's talking about, and cant give me a single example of how his guy is stronger than another all because george lucas is an immature douch bag that has to make his characters the best even when they've been proven not to be... now i dont mind being proven wrong... as long as u can explain to me why im wrong... but just saying canon makes me want to snap.... lol looks like it ended up as another rant hahahaha 3... i completely agree... R2 is a G... i mean R2 really does save everyone all the time

i am so sick of hearing "canon says" as an argument over who'd win in a battle between people. yes, i understand that technically what canon says is true but thats only because gerorge lucas refuses to let anybody be more powerful than his characters even though i have seen/read his characters getting their asses handed to them. Canon was created to protect the characters he created, and how the hell would lucas know whos the strongest ever? he claims to never have read the books so how the hell would he know how powerful ANYONE was. He just says palpatine/luke with absolutely nothing to back it up and like sheep everyone just follows... someone could write an OFFICIAL star wars book about a sith lord who was so powerful that he blinked his eyes and the entire galaxy blew up and when lucas was questioned he'd still say palpatine was the strongest even though there was no possible effing way he could be, and all u little lucas fan boys would run around saying canon says in every debate u were in. I dont wanna hear it, really i dont. fact of the matter is the sith emperor, like palp, devoured a planet... except unlike palp the Vitiate didnt leave anything behind, he didnt even leave the force behind... he devoured EVERYTHING... there wasnt even any wind left and light was even distorted. idc about the fact he uses "trinkets" either... its the ends that matter not the means... fact is he can touch his presence to someone and they just drop screaming, so i dont care about all the flashy powers paplatines got... he wouldnt have a chance to use them... Vitiate would look at him and within a second palpatine would just fall over... and i deff dont wanna hear that palps force lightning is the most powerful ever blah blah blah etc... if it was that powerful it would have killed windu... uh oh *BIG SPOILER*... mace windu didnt effing die, he survived. and if u dont believe me then go ahead and look it up. as a matter of fact there talk of him being in episode VII... but to be fair im not trying to take away from palpatine either, being able to rip through the fabric of space and create worm holes is amazing and his abilities with a lightsaber are also top knotch. but those factors are irrelevant against someone who can just look at u then its fight over. (its like trying to fight itachi on naruto... alot of people have super powerful and flashy powers that make them seem like gods and every single time one of them face itachi he just looks at them and he wins the fight.) also i hear "well palpatine fought 4 jedi masters" and blah blah... i dont wanna hear it, the sith emperor gathered the 9 strongest sith lords in the galaxy and beat them all at the same time just by looking at them. and then lets talk immortality... anyone who claims palpatine is more of an immortal than the sith emperor is just plain retarded... lets see... 1 of these 2 men lived for over 1,300 years and another lived say 80 years (100 tops)... so i think its fair to say the Vitiate was far more immortal than sidious ever was and if sidious was soooo much more immortal than where the hell is he now? thats right he's dead... so im gonna give the immortality card to the guy that managed to live over 16 average human life spans, not the guy who barely made it past average life expectancy. now i wanna point out that Vitiate could instantly invade ur mind and break ur will and turn you to his slave... he turned revan and malak two of the most powerful and noble jedi into sith lords who alone almost conquered the entire galaxy... these 2 were no match for the sith emperor. and palplatine took over the galaxy with scheming, not power... his troops and vader murdered all the jedi, not him... but i'll give it to him though he is a smooth criminal but the jedi never feared palplatine as they feared Vitiate. the jedi were worried about the sith emperor devouring the life of the entire galaxy all at one time and, trinket or not, it was well within his power... this is something sidious was never capable of. galaxy genocide could only be done by Vitiate and no other... oh sidious can destroy a fleet... maybe a planet? well Vitiate can destroy an entire galaxy and that makes sidious little force storms look like childs play. and yet again, i dont care how he does it... the fact is he could do it. and my fav is those of u who say sidious beat yoda... did you see the same fight i did? cuz to me it looked like yoda won that... sidious gave him his full power and yoda blocked then overpowered sidious in that force power duel and repelled sidious' power. the shockwave sent them both flying backwards... yoda only fell further cuz he is way smaller than sidious so he got thown farther ending the battle. yoda had already fallen and then bailed before sidious had recovered. so the actual battle was a draw... but power vs power yoda overpowered sidious and repelled his lightning... so all in all im sorry for going off like a crazy person but im just so sick and tired of every debate i get into having someone argue with me and their only argument is canon but can give me no other evidence to back up their claim. i dont care about canon, george lucas doesnt know ****... star wars is sooooooo much bigger than george lucas.... he may have made it up but he has written 6 out of over 150 books. if u think someone can beat someone then tell why u think so, just dont tell me cuz dad said so. thats like the guy who invented airplanes saying his plane is fastest plane ever because he made planes up... cuz im pretty sure a jet is waaaaay faster then an old propeller plane... and then its like me saying that a jet is faster then the original plane and u saying "nope... canon says ur wrong" cuz really?... im pretty sure im *********** not