Windu absolutely bested sidious, but it wasnt so black and white. he bested him in the duel as far as lightsabers were concerned, but not in the fight as a whole. normally windu wouldnt be able to stand up to sidious in sabers, but mace was drawing on a power source not usually available to him, giving him a power boost. that power boost was the anger and darkness from sidious himself... mace windu's vaapad style lets him draw on the darkness inside himself, as well as the darkness inside his opponent, and release it to make him more powerful in a duel... seeing as he was battling the strongest sith lord ever, he was completely supercharged on sidious' power and was drawing on it to make himself stronger. On top of that windu had more rage than normal inside himself during that fight... finding out palpatine and sidious were the same person had hollowed him to the core. cuz mace windu also had a secret attachment, a secret love, and that was the republic. When his secrect love was threatened he had even more darkness and rage inside himself to draw on. that being said, windu stood no chance in the fight as a whole. palpatine could have ended it whenever he wanted im sure. but palpatine dueled him without force powers and "lost".. but sidious also allowed himself to be bested. Windu broke the window to lure sidious near the edge so he'd have to use the force to grip the floor against the winds. sidous let himself be lured out knowing windu would beat him, he wanted to be beaten. Sidious was faking fear and Windu drew on the fake fear to grow even more powerful... and thats when anakin walked in

that would be a yes... im in absolute agreement... and revan vs sidious? thats ammusing, and to be honest revan is my fav sith lord, but unlike revan fan boys, i know the limts of his power. he stands zero chance against sidious... he's not even in the top 3 as far as most powerful sith lords... probably not even top 5... i would say at least top 10 though... maybe around 9 or 10. whats the most annoying is i bought kotor the day it came out... and i liked revan the moment i saw him 10 yrs ago. when i started liking him, it wasnt cool to like revan. no one had even heard of him, he was underground. so naturally i started using revan in my screen names. then like 3 years later revan is completely mainstream with a cult following of fan boys completely over emphasizing his power. even though i have no disillusion of revans power, i cant go into any room, with my normal screen names, and not be grouped in with those kids... or be immediately called a revanite... its soooo annoying

a couple of these quotes say he's the most powerful, but most of these dont say anything about him being the most powerful sith lord that ever lived... just things he's done or can do. so im assuming ur posting them as evidence of just how powerful he really is and letting us do the math... i also want to note that some of the quotes could be argued against, where its based on a characters perception of sidious. Because if vader saying "By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." becomes canon fact.... then so does anakin saying "I'm more powerful than the chancellor, I can over throw him". in fact vader's perception of sidious is C-canon where its from a book, and anakins perception of sidious is G-canon where it was a movie by lucas. so in that comparison, Anakin being the most powerful would prevail, being as how G-canon > C-canon. even worse is this is the SAME character with different opinions each time... But again, this is someone's perception of sidious, and that is why it doesnt make it fact. But all in all i agree with your stance on it but i wanted to at least present how inconsistent canon can be sometimes, not to mention how it changes all the time... and these inconsistencies makes it so tough to debate anything.

i love how u just took 3 awesome things and combined them to make ur name.... lol

ok... i completely understand, u have zero tolerance for seeing this debate. completely understandable... let me guess, u didnt mind at first but as time wore on it just made u want to snap? thats how i feel about what i was saying. and good luck to u sir

way to make me feel bad lol... lets get one thing straight... im the one with his back against the wall being tag teamed by multiple people in the thread. im the one on defense. im pretty sure it was u who attacked my grammar bringing it personal. i thought that was the level id have to bring it to to properly defend myself. i honestly thought it was understood that anything goes and i wasnt try to offend u personally... but if i offended u, my apologies... and i want to note that im a very very stubborn person who rarely apologizes... i just have zero tolerance for people, who i feel arent thinking as in depth about things as they should, insulting me. iv been in waaaaay to many arguments on the net with immature people to have a tolerance anymore so i immediately go on the offensive and insult... im sure u must have known what u were getting urself into when u read my previous posts. for future reference... dont poke a lion and then wonder why he attacks u lol

i have said multiple times that its not so black and white, that u needed to look at the big picture and that there are different cirumstances where Vitiate would win... which u denied because of canon. Then u come back at me with Vader only won cuz of the circumstances... so in attempting to argue with me u have finally conceded and agreed there are certain conditions where sidious could be defeated by someone less powerful than him, which is the point iv been arguing all along, the philosophy of reality... canon should only be a guide line to help determine who we think MIGHT win... cuz reality is underdogs win all the time, even against opponents stronger then themselves... thanks for helping me win my argument

furthermore, ur inability to do the "math" and decipher whos the stronger between windu vs palpatine only furthers my point on how impossible it is for u to think for urself... G-canon didnt tell u who's stronger so ur completely lost and cant figure it out for urself? hahahaha.... its pretty basic... get ur head out of ur *** and use some common sense... u only prove ur a drone more and more everytime u open ur mouth... so we'll go over this one more time, 1) yoda = strongest jedi up to his time... as stated by canon meaning 2) windu < yoda 3)sidious = strongest sith.... and sidious defeated yoda meaning 4)yoda < sidious and if windu is less than yoda that means 5)windu < sidious now i know that may be hard to comprehend, where it wasnt lucas who programmed this into u, but it really wasnt that hard to figure out

it appears it is u who hasnt thought things through... 1. i said it doesnt matter how palp was beaten... u all claim its impossible... palp just sat there helpless when vader picked him up... id expect more from the most powerful sith lord thats ever lived... are u saying its completely impossible for Vitiate to pretend to be on Palpatine's side and strike when he's not paying attention? Cuz its pretty clear u are all stating he cant defeat Palpatine period... no matter what the circumstances... and thats where u are wrong... i said there are all sorts of variables that need to be accounted for... u claimed it didnt matter, sidious would win no matter what, no matter which situation canon says he wins... thats where i said u were all weak minded drones and there was more to it than that....who said this was a straight up fight? was Plagueis and Sidious a straight up fight? no it wasnt... but sidious defeated plagueis none the less 2. yoda was the strongest jedi who'd ever lived up to his point... windu was weaker than yoda... sidious is stronger than yoda, as made clear by yoda failing to kill him and being forced into exile... he knew he couldnt beat sidious so planned on using the skywalker twins to succeed where he failed... so its fair to say windu is less powerful than sidious... lets set it up like this windu<yoda<sidious... but that didnt stop windu from besting palpatine... all the variables that day were in windu's favor... windu had all the right conditions on his side hence why theres more to it then whos the most powerful... u have to look at the bigger picture... uv proven u can not... its not so black and white

okay u win that battle... i admit i said that but u gotta remember i wrote this in a fit of rage and it doesnt portray how i really feel... i was in infuriated with some other kid on youtube when i came across this forum and posted this... it angers me i cant reach through the moniter and just smack the **** out of people on the internet sometimes... i wasnt going to slap my gf or my daughter so i posted this... this is just a huge rant venting my frustration... im man enough to admit when im wrong and im wrong in this post...

please see above... im not writing a persuasive essay here... i know my grammar is incorrect from a literature stand point but trying to insult me on the lack of grammar i used on a post in a forum is sad... it really is... it shows u have nothing else to combat me with and just reveals ur desperation... do people write jk, brb, lol, imo, ***, btw, or idk in novels or any other official document where grammar is necessary... no they dont... this is the internet and other rules apply... i know how to use proper grammar and there is a place for it..... and a forum is not one of them. i dont use ".............................." these dots to break up what im saying when im writing an actual paper or piece of literature... only in text messages, posts of facebook, or forums... i dont write "u" or "ur" when writing real papers... yet again, my brain is smart enough to tell the difference between the 2...so please come at me with something better than lack of grammar... it just reveals how desperate u really are in the argument and reveals u have nothing else u can say... its like obama debating romney and obama owning romney... and romney having nothing to say back so he points out the obvious and tells obama he's black... nothing but a desperate attempt to cling on to something and stay alove in this debate... good job... come at me with something better... i'll wait

it was in an interview... i'll try and find it... i never denied sidious was the strongest... saying who's the strongest and saying who'd win in a fight are 2 different things... my point is anything can happen... sidious was way stronger than windu... but in windu's fight with sidious he summoned all his inner anger, along sidious' darkness, and channeled it through him with the 7th lightsaber style Vaapad... this gave him a huge power boost allowing him to match sidious in the duel (in lightsabers)... it says windu had a secret love.. a secret attachment, and that was the republic... so when it was threatened he had more darkness than normal inside himself to draw upon... his Vaapad style makes u walk dangerously close to the dark side and because so was forbidden to all but a few jedi... it allows u to turn the darkness inside u into something positive and also channels ur enemies darkness as well... so between his anger and sidious' darkness he was just supercharged... anakin decribed their fight as a blur, stating it was too fast for his eyes to follow... but canon says sidious>windu so windu should stand no chance... but extenuating circumstances allowed windu to best him (in lightsabers).. hence anything can happen and its not so black and white... im able to understand this... seems everyone else is not... why do u think people say 9 times out of 10... cuz theres always that chance that 10th time something miraculous happens... like windu beating palpatine... i however will agree the fight may have been over sooner if palp had used his force powers

what are u my english teacher? this is the internet, nobody uses correct punctuations... im not writing a piece of literature here... dont blaim me if ur brain is unable to keep up and needs a a paragraph break to catch its breath... i type like im talking... i u dont like it... dont use the internet... are u gonna ***** that i write u instead of you?

hahahaha, my evidence can be destroyed? thats laughable seeing as none of u have even attempted to destroy this argument... all anyone can say is canon... and matching up anyone with sidious is pointless cuz he beats anyone? well if my memory serves me correctly im fairly certain vader beat palpatine... doesnt matter how he did it ... the fact is that he did... so as i said there more to it then just who's more powerful... theres so many other variables to consider... sidious was also more powerful than windu but windu seemed to have beat sidious in their duel... and b4 u say sidious was holding back i feel its my duty to inform u that lucas himself states that sidious did not hold back in their fight and that mace had won the duel fairly... and if lucas says it it becomes g-canon... and by ur logic canon is absolute... so windu beating palp also defies canon... stop telling me its not possible when history shows it happening multiple times...

oh and furthermore u just wasted ur time looking up and quoting all this to prove something i already know and never denied... i actually state multiple times above that i acknowledge sidious is the strongest thats ever lived... so uv wasted ur time arguing in an argument thats not even taking place... im saying anything can happen... like how an xwing can destroy a death star even though the gap in their power is so incredibly huge that its not even funny... so if this is possible then why wouldnt it be possible for someone who's close to the same power as sidious be able to defeat him? vader was waaaaaaaaaay weaker than sidious but he seemed to have pulled it off... think outside the box and expand ur perspective to see the whole picture before u attempt to insult me when my mind seems to function higher than that of a mindless drone...