Ha! Good point. I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t missed any official dates.

This on a weekend really makes me concerned. I was thinking of making a character on The Harbinger to see if being on a more populated server would make enough difference to abandon my present one, but if this is how it is looking I might just let my sub time run out and re-up when we get the transfers/mergers. Sometimes being an altoholic is bad for you…

And even though you say you unsubed I am sure you are going to keep posting this garbage, for how long I can’t say. But I am pretty sure you were banned from the D3 forums for more than saying Diablo 3 was short if your post history is any indication… Too bad you didn’t read, or understand what the OP was talking about, but I guess that isn’t your primary concern, judging from the contents of your posts…

Well end of the year (12 months) is more reasonable than 7 months from launch, I haven’t caught the dates, just the content announcements so if this is the case I would call it good news…and I am guessing that the OP would as well given his concern was based on it coming “soon”, another five or six months is plenty of time to knock out the crafting upgrades to companions and have it be “meaningful” before the new cap arrives. So far the E3 info I have seen hasn’t included the dates, can you direct me to someplace that has them?

And you needed to add your very own special comment to it to tell us how you completely missed the point of what the OP was saying while trying to look witty on the internets?

Though I think the “Thundercats” comment was amusing I have no doubt that Cathar has been a requested race option by players. You mention poles in your response to Caspian_Rho, do you have links to any of them? I’d like to see the numbers, all the hub bub has got me curious. Also in occurs to me that posting the links might quite down all the static over it, just a thought.

Yeah, how dare you embrace the whole legacy thing that Bioware has been talking about and re-roll so you can play through each of the class stories! You know how hard it is to add one more slot per faction per server? Just imagine the increased load on Bioware servers caused by those extra slots… don’t you ever think of anyone but yourself? Clearly you need to delete one of those level 50 characters you made so you can have one of the new races…

I think this is one of the primary challenges we are facing right now from a community standpoint, how do you tell people to “just keep waiting”? And is that really a viable option? Especially when they have alternatives…maybe not the best alternatives, but it is kinda’ hard to argue with the above.

Yeah, I agree on this one. Plenty of other things for them to talk about.

Not butting in at all! Jump on in and join the conversation, it’s what the forums are for, right? Well I did outline what I considered to be an active subscription, but that certainly isn’t the only thing that could reasonably be argued to count. And I think you have a valid point, but as you said I am not terribly interested in arguing the minutia on this point…so it is a useful conversation to have, just not with me. With luck someone here will engage you on the point you make and you’ll be “off and rolling” so to speak. Cheers.

What I find amusing about this is that the three points my original post made were: 1. Box sale are not subscriptions, bringing up box sales in a conversation about subscriptions is a dodge. 2. When market conditions cause a company’s “numbers” (Be they subscriptions if it is a game company, car sales for an auto manufacturer , or whatever product or service they “produce”) to not be what they my like at a given time it is pretty standard to dodge questions about “hard numbers”, so even though point one highlights the dodge in this case, point two is “yeah they are doing that, but so what, it should be expected right now when the numbers aren’t in their favor”. So essentially I am saying “nothing to see here, move along”. 3. Bioware knows exactly what subscriptions are active at any given time because they can check their server logs. There is no mystery, the information is there, and it is just a matter of how you want to parse it. Now at no point have I suggested what criteria Bioware should use to count their subs in this situation. I have stated that the numbers I am interested in are “Active Subscriptions” and I have also out lined what I consider an “Active Subscription” to be, but not once have I said “this is what Bioware should use as their criteria to answer the question in the article”. In fact I have stated I have no interest in that conversation. Yet here you are trying to drag me into just that…I don’t know if it is because you just skimmed my post’s (yeah, they got a bit long…), if you lack reading comprehension, or if you are just in “attack mode” because you are one of the reactionary types we have here on the forum that feel they must “strike out” at anyone they perceive to be saying something negative about SWTOR or Bioware/EA. Given that you both start and end your post with insults I am leaning towards the latter. Regardless, the conversation you seem to want to have (in between throwing out insults) has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said, so I would suggest you find someone else to have it with.

First off, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I want to touch on things point by point in a brief manner as I am trying to avoid another “mega post” Though what you are saying could very well be a factor when talking to the press, it doesn’t really have anything to do with what the OP quoted, what I quoted or any other the things I was saying. So it s not irrelevant in and of itself, it is just irrelevant to what I had to say in regards the OP and the article. By starting off a conversation about subscriptions by adding in a distraction about box sales he is being less than honest. That said it is not the end of the world, as I said myself I would be doing the same thing if I were in his shoes, but he is doing it, has to do it because the numbers are not where they want them right now. Had he just gone with “it’s complicated” and not added the misleading reference to box sales then I wouldn’t have called it out as deceptive, just evasive. This seems to be s subject that you and I aren’t destined to agree on, and that is fine. I think this is where you are diverging into a different conversation than the one I was having. My thoughts are as long as they say what the criteria are and use that criteria they can choose what they want…as this does not relate to what I was saying I don’t truly care, though that shouldn’t stop you from having this conversation with someone else… If you read the section of my post you made this reply to you can clearly see what I was saying, and that it has nothing to do with what they choose to release for numbers or what criteria it is based on…it is the fact that they can accurately track their active subscriptions by consulting their server logs. My answer, though not “aimed at you” would be quite simply that the very term “Active Subscription” contains the word “active” in it. As such an account with time left on it that is not ACTIVLY being used (not logging in) is simply not active. I would call this common sense…but I am sure that wouldn’t stop someone from wanting to quibble…and in truth it’s not worth my time for the simple reason that it would most likely just be an exercise in futility with someone who’s goal was not to discuss and form a reasonable picture as to the status or number of active subscriptions but who simply wanted to engage in distraction from and stalling of that conversation. Beyond my answer above I would add the definition of the word from the dictionary: sub•scrip•tion - A purchase made by signed order, as for a periodical for a specified period of time or for a series of performances. So I would say there is no debate as to weather a trial account can be counted as an active subscription, as by its very definition a trial is not a subscription. But as I said above, that wouldn’t stop someone from wanting to quibble…and in truth it’s not worth my time for the simple reason that it would most likely just be an exercise in futility with someone who’s goal was not to discuss and form a reasonable picture as to the status or number of active subscriptions but who simply wanted to engage in distraction from and stalling of that conversation. Well I’d say if what you mean by that is you are referring to the number of active subscriptions then we are discussing the same thing, if not then we aren’t. Well my guess would be that just as we have “fanboiz” that believe Bioware can do no wrong we also have “haterz” that believe Bioware can do no right. Like most threads on these forums the discussion ends up being centered around the dynamic between those two poles and their most devoted adherents. And regardless of the fact that you and I do not seem to agree on all points I wanted to take the time to say thank you for an engaging and civilized discussion, it has been quite fun and a welcome change!

Please, please, please no “Life Day” celebration events/quests…it was bad enough to have to live through the TV special as a kid in the 70’s…scarred for life I tell ya’…

Actually I am, but I have one “main” per faction and the rest are only up to the capital worlds…trying to level in pairs, one per faction in order to maximize rested XP…I don’t have nearly the amount of free time to play as some others do…I am one of the “filthy” casuals that seem to be the root of all MMO evil.

This. Plus didn't we just have a rakghoul outbreak?

Sorry, took an arrow to the knee.

OK, instead of replying in the same wanna’ be gotcha’ fashion I am going to direct you to my answer to Zmidponk’s post below as he is actually attempting to have a conversation as opposed to trying to look witty on the internet. OK, I want to start this out by saying please do not read any “trolling”. “hating” or whatever into my reply, I am not trying to attack you. With that said you seem to be missing some key details, so I am going to highlight them for you. If you go back and look at the OP post you will see that he quoted the following from the article: “Subscriber numbers are funny things. How you count them – the math you use – really matters, and there are lots of variables to consider,” And in conclusion he (the OP) said “Joking aside, this looks like really shoddy attempt at damage control, and it makes me wonder if things are really worse than they appear to be.” In reply I added the rest of that sentence in my post: “Subscriber numbers are funny things. How you count them – the math you use – really matters, and there are lots of variables to consider,” he said. “Such as, people that simply subscribe compared to people that actually buy the box. There are very different numbers out there, and you should be smart about which one you use when you talk to the press.” I then addressed the concern that the OP seemed to be raising with his use of that quote from the article; obvious PR spin looks bad but there are reasons for doing it. You will note that I have highlighted the same parts in the quote above. So let me again point out that SUBSCRIPTION NUMBERS have F-all to do with BOX SALES, they are two very different things. This is the spin I am talking about, specifically because it is part of the sentence that the OP quoted. Now I am glad that you did in fact choose to read the rest of the article because it directly related to the next part of my post. Later in the article he (Emmanuel Lusinchi) said: “Now, I’m not the best person to talk about subscriber numbers, that’s important to mention. We are a publically traded company, and subscriber numbers - like other things - are very touchy subjects. Even if I knew them I couldn’t talk to you about them because it would be impacting on stock price and all that stuff. And I don’t actually get raw numbers every day anyway.” You will note that I have highlighted some parts of the quote above, in my post I said: “…which is why most companies engage in the spin and misdirection you see quoted above when the numbers aren’t what they want them to be. And honestly it is perfectly understandable… So yeah, I would expect to see more interactions with the press and public that include a great deal of cognitive dissidence for the time being, it is kind of the nature of the beast.” And this is the part of my post were I was pointing out that the “big conspiracy” tone some of this thread has taken is false and a little silly, this is what businesses must do when the market isn’t going their way. They have to in order to protect against a drop in the stock price…not necessarily an honest practice, but a common one. So here it seems you have missed that I was directly answering the OP with information that would downplay any “the sky is falling” inference that might be made over the contents of the article linked. Unlike Kharnis who comes off as one of the “you said something bad about SWTOR or Bioware so I need to attempt to belittle/attack you” types we see here on the forums you actually seem to want to engage on the subject and that is why I am taking the time to be this thorough in my answer. Now the second point seems to be a very simple misunderstanding, let me quote my post again: I think the most useful conversation would be to discus Active Subscriptions because this is the only number the playerbase has any real interest in, it is what determines how many other people, in total, are available to enjoy the game with you, but let’s not confuse this with Active Server Population numbers which will determine how many people are directly available to play with you, be it by joining a quest, operation or being the opposition in PVP on your server. And my other reply to you: And as I said active subscriptions are very easy for Bioware to count, just pick if you want to count only subscriptions that have been active in the last thirty days, last two weeks, last two months, whatever. The information is right there, it’s just a matter of what they choose to reveal to the rest of us… I am talking about ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS. In your reply you talk about Subscription numbers. We are talking about two different things in this case. I for one don’t give a flying #$%k about how many total subscriptions anyone wants to claim SWTOR has or does not have and I have no interest in that conversation, I only care about ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS because that is the number of people I can actually have the opportunity to play SWTOR with. Dear gods of the interwebs that was a long post… So I hope that clears things up, again like I said above none of this should be taken in a “hostile tone”, I am just trying to clear up any misunderstandings that have taken place about what I have said. Cheers.

If the fleets a rockin’ don’t come a knockin’

Interesting theory, let’s look a little closer for a moment shall we? I was just reading a thread titled “What isn’t the community’s fault” where the OP was asking what thing or things out a list he gave were in fact not the community’s fault. I believe the list was a compilation of things he had seen in various threads that people had blamed on the community. After three pages the thread was closed with a note telling people that the subject was already being discussed here in this thread. Having read this thread I have not seen any mention of that discussion (till now by me anyways). So does this incident fit with your theory that “…every positive post gets closed while hate threads by the same fifteen or twenty trolls are allowed to be opened for weeks”?

Yeah, that is the information and numbers that I have been looking at and agree that with the sources available are the best to go by right now. I just wanted to verify if there was another “reasonable” source that had become available. And despite the trollish pre-emptive attacks made on this person by others I am going to take his/her silence in regards to my question as an answer.

No, he is not saying that…please re read either the quote in my post or the whole article in the link (I would suggest the whole article if you are willing to dedicate the time to it). He is making a dodge by trying to introduce box sales into the discussion about active subscriptions, two very different things. And as I said active subscriptions are very easy for Bioware to count, just pick if you want to count only subscriptions that have been active in the last thirty days, last two weeks, last two months, whatever. The information is right there, it’s just a matter of what they choose to reveal to the rest of us…and as I said it is understandable for them to try and muddy the waters when the numbers aren’t something they can crow about…this is standard practice, it doesn’t make it any more honest, but it is how it works. Sorry for the long reply but you seem genuinely confused and I wanted to be sure to answer your question completely (not everyone on these forums are here strictly to insult and belittle others!).

Emmanuel Lusinchi “Subscriber numbers are funny things. How you count them – the math you use – really matters, and there are lots of variables to consider,” he said. “Such as, people that simply subscribe compared to people that actually buy the box. There are very different numbers out there, and you should be smart about which one you use when you talk to the press.” Yeah this is a rather embarrassing attempt at spin…but in his shoes I am sure I would want to spin things myself…I don’t envy those guys (and gals) right now. I think the most useful conversation would be to discus Active Subscriptions because this is the only number the playerbase has any real interest in, it is what determines how many other people, in total, are available to enjoy the game with you, but let’s not confuse this with Active Server Population numbers which will determine how many people are directly available to play with you, be it by joining a quest, operation or being the opposition in PVP on your server. Active subscriptions are not very hard to determine, if you are Bioware. Yeah, it is very easy to determine the number of Active Subscriptions if you have access to the server logs, active in the last thirty days, active in the last week, active in the last hour- all that information is readily available. Just not to us, or the press…which is why most companies engage in the spin and misdirection you see quoted above when the numbers aren’t what they want them to be. And honestly it is perfectly understandable… So yeah, I would expect to see more interactions with the press and public that include a great deal of cognitive dissidence for the time being, it is kind of the nature of the beast.

And that my friend is the crux of the problem.

Thank you for proving me wrong in this case, it is nice to see responses that deviate from the same old “cut and paste” we see far too much of here.

Here is a thought, how about you give them a chance to actually answer the question before you post some cut rate ad hominem BS sunshine. I would like to give them a chance to offer some sort of source to collaborate their claim, that’s how grown-ups have a conversation. Stick around you might learn something champ. Or you could just continue to try and impress us with what passes for wit in your case. Whichever.