Marauders Over 90% of them are Fury. There lies the problem. Fury has more immunity, better resource management, higher damage output, more root breakers.... you can't compare Fury with other 2 mara specs, that is just silly. Remove Fury's immunity and it should be much much better.

I'm still shocked at amount of threads about "skank" tanks doing too much damage in last year or so. NOTHING has changed regarding dps geared tanks & their damage output. It was the same in 2.0, 3.0, 4.0. The major change started in 3.0 with defensive buffs some dps specs received. With every new change since 3.0 we saw increased survivability for certain dps specs. The major buffs went to: arsenal mercs, engineering sniper & fury marauder. To no surprise these are the dps specs which you see most often in PVP....+ healers ofc. On top of that, most dps specs are much much better at healing too. It came to a point where healers are redundant for PVP. Actually PVP would be fine if you just removed healers altogether from regular WZ's...that and the rotational immunity of Fury marauders has to go. This would be the easiest fix to PVP and it would be really good IMO. You could remove tanks too, but they are not really the problem. P.S. Increased mobility for everybody since 3.0 is another major problem for regular WZ's.

Anni far above Deception in PVP? The only thing Anni is better at is fighting Arsenal Mercs and Snipers. When I say better I don't mean good enough. If the utility that gives Mercs reduced CD for Energy Shiled (Energy rebounder?) would only work on direct single target dmg we could talk about Anni/Watchman in PVP, but now with only yolo and regs popin' where most played toons besides mercs are Concealment Ops and Deception Sins!? ....Anni is the worst mara spec for fighting Concealment Ops and Deception Sins, not the the other two spec are good enough. It's just that a clicker with basic knowledge of the game can beat any Anni mara if playing Concealment (that reduced CD on evasion ), Deception is a bit harder but not by much. On the topic, PVP wise I don't agree with this Deception nerf.

A dude playing the most OP class/spec ever shares his wisdom with the rest of us plebs LOL, just LOL. The sorc are so OP that none even remembers the 3.0 abomination called Hatred sin which made me quit playing my sin/shadows. P.S. 3rd screen shoot: 50% of players are sorc/sages, do I have to say anything more? On topic: The only tank that is kinda OP is the jugger/guardian. Other tanks can look OP but that's only when sorc heals are involved. IMO the easiest way to fix the regular WZs would be to remove PW from sorc/sages, leap from sin/opers and mad dash from maras/juggers. It wouldn't fix everything, not even close but it would be a good start. Concealment's durability is another problem. I'm OK for it to be the best 1vs1 spec as Deception was in 2.X but it's far too forgiving and durable. Basically, the most OP composition for any regular WZ: sorc heal&dot, jugger tank, concealment operative. If your team has none of these and the opposing team is ALL THAT you have NO CHANCE. I think there lies your problem Cretinus, as 80% of the toons I play with/against are those 4 spec.

The only tank you should have trouble with is the jugg/guardian tank. Vang/PT tank is not bad but nothing special either. ...and sin/shadow tank is a laugh in duels ever since FL heals were removed, and that was a long time ago. OP Jugg/guardian tank was BY FAR the best non stealth dueling spec for ages, I think a dot sage/sorc could/should win the duel with the addition of PW, maybe even merc/mando burst spec. Snipers, maras vs jugg tank....fish food, but that's really nothing new.

Hello there, I don't think tanks in general are the main problem of regular WZ's. IMO the problems begin with sorc heal/dot spec, concealment operatives & jugg tanks. If none of these specs and no 600 expertise players are present I usually have a nice, dynamic game. Best games were the ones WITH tanks and no heals at all, only 2 dps on each side doing the healers job. I think it was 2 arsenal mercs on one side & lethality operative and a merc on the other. (no concealment or jugg tanks either). Very dynamic game with uncertain outcome 'till the very end. Even bigger problem is the new "EVERYBODY LEAP" thing + sorc PW. The maps weren't designed with that in mind. Madness & deception sins could not use force speed as a root breaker in 2.0, only tank spec and hybrids could. There is such an example for every class. If those 2 things were removed i think regs could be fun again, even with sorc, concealment and jugg tanks staying as they are now. I play on TRE and started on that german pve server and cca 80% of toons are sorc heal/dot , jugg tnaks and operatives (concealment mostly). P.S. It's not that hard to burn a tank if the healer is operative or merc.

I'm afraid you came a little too late. 2.x era was really fun for sins; Deception was best iso, 1vs1 spec (now it's Concealment by far) Darkness was one of the most fun specs; healing on FL!!! (gone ) HAtred (then madness) was the strongest dot spec at the end of 2.x era (now it's madness sorc without competition) Basically sins are 2nd at everything in 4.x era. In this forum section you'll find many swearing darkness with dps gear is great but I don't buy it. Even with 50% HP I dispatch almost all tank sins with ease, no matter what I'm playing; merc/jugg/mara/PT.....

A rating system would easily solve almost all the problems. To avoid any tensions don't make the rating public. You need to have all the 600-900 expertise beginners in one WZ, mediocre solo Q's & premades in another and excellent solo Q's and premades in their own WZ. Rules need to be simple: 1. for every win no matter if you solo Q or group up you get 1 point 2. same with the loss; you lose 1 rating point no matter how you Q. ...and a "thinking in advance" kinda rule: you lose 10 points in rating for every 100 expertise you're missing on your gear. With this system even inexperienced players would have fun in PVP because a 500 expertise players would play with and against similar geared/skilled player. A more detailed system would be better but with current population, the resources BW has............... I don't think it possible. This crude system would separate players by skill/experience/gear and only marginally increase Q time.

Close Quarters: "Reduces a minimum range of Force Charge by 10 meters and reduces it's CD for 3 seconds."

Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

PVP Anni/Watchman is getting a huge nerf with 4.0 and loses it's "signature thing"; Force Leap range 1-30m (removal of Close Quarters). This for me goes in the same bracket (worst kind of nerfs) with these: 1.Removal of self heals from FL for sin/shadow tanks 2.Removal of knockdown from Hidden Strike for Concealment Opers ..and here you see some PVE players getting "all technical" on how this will actually be a buff (LOL) for Anni/Watchman in PVP. So much false (PVP) in this thread I don't have enough energy to go through all of this. If someone's even interested on 4.0 and Anni/Watchman PVP: Nerfs: 1.Operating range of Force Leap will be reduced for 33%, it's CD will be increased for 20%. (Close Quarters has been removed.) 2.CD on hardest hitting ability (Annihilate) will be increased for another 20%. 3.Devious Wounds now increases bleed damage by 5%, down from 10%, for 4.5 seconds up from 3 seconds. 4.Force Rend gets a CD, 15seconds. Hastened Rend (passive) reduces that CD to 12 seconds. Buffs: 1. Force Rend costs no focus 2.Swift Demise has been redesigned: Annihilate has a 50% chance to build Swift Demise when activated, increasing damage your next Vicious Slash or Vicious Throw deals by 5% per stack. Stacks up to 2 times. A few short remarks on rest of the changes: 1.One dot (Force Rend) will be shorter (from 15 sec to 9) BUT the other dot (Cauterize) will be longer (from 6 sec to 9). Whatever positive happens to Force Rend from decreased duration will be countered by increased duration of Cauterize. 2.Enraged Charge has been removed (nerf). Countered by: Enraged Rend has been added (buff) 3. Why Force Rend will never replace Force Leap+Close Quarters in PVP: Force Leap at full range & decreased CD (soon to be removed Close Quarters passive) is your only melee attack outside 4m (except ST every 18sec).... which is important because of: Deadly Saber (CD 12 seconds!!!): next 3 successful melee attacks will make the target burn for xyDMG over 6 seconds. When you take in consideration the duration of dots, cooldown and requirements (12sec, 3xmelee attack) of Deadly Saber, melee attacks at your disposal I hope you will understand why Force Rend can not replace Force Leap+Close Quarters in PVP: The other 2 mara/sent specs have a hard hitting ability on 10m range+ they are burst specs. Anni/watchman needs more "time on target" , it's not a burst spec.

One dot (Force Rend) will be shorter (from 15 sec to 9) BUT the other dot (Cauterize) will be longer (from 6 sec to 9), so your point on shorter "bursty" dots is inaccurate. They did what some members of the community asked for: 2 dots with the same duration, like Hatred. You are very naive if you think that the dmg Force Rend does in 15 seconds will stay the same when the duration decreases to 9 sec. Dmg it does will most definitely be decreased, same as duration. Even if your assumption is correct, whatever positive happens to Force Rend from decreased duration will be countered by increased duration of Cauterize. The shift of rage/focus build from Force Leap to Force Rend is meaningless for PVP. For those who think that Anni/Watchman is getting a PVP buff with 4.0 here's a basic overview: Nerfs: 1.Operating range of Force Leap will be reduced for 33%, it's CD will be increased for 20%. (Close Quarters has been removed.) 2.CD on hardest hitting ability (Annihilate) will be increased for another 20%. 3.Devious Wounds now increases bleed damage by 5%, down from 10%, for 4.5 seconds up from 3 seconds. 4.Force Rend gets a CD, 15seconds. Hastened Rend (passive) reduces that CD to 12 seconds. Buffs: 1. Force Rend costs no focus 2.Swift Demise has been redesigned: Annihilate has a 50% chance to build Swift Demise when activated, increasing the damage your next Vicious Slash or Vicious Throw deals by 5% per stack. Stacks up to 2 times. Following changes have been excluded from buff/nerf due to lack of data or counter buffs/nerfs: 1. Enraged Charge has been removed (nerf). Countered by: Enraged Rend has been added (buff). 2. As already mentioned; one dot gets shorter (buff?) countered by the other dot that gets longer (nerf by that logic). Overall it's a nerf ofc...

Thanks for the support Domi... Hopeless bump

When they removed ranked 8vs8 a lot of really good players left. (quality decline) By really good I mean those that play/have all classes. While this game isn't hard it takes a lot of time to lvl and learn every class/spec in the game and if you don't do that you'll never be really good. With the announcement of 3.0 and what it brings a decent amount of new players (noobs) has arrived but more of those experienced ones left. (quality decline again) The fact that 3.0 brought the worst class balance ever didn't help either. I mean most good sin/shadows were too embarrassed to even play Hatred in 3.0 . That spec was so broken that no previous FOTM spec could ever come close to Hatred. In general I would say that the quality of PVP has declined since 3.0 drastically. The advantage that FOTM specs usually get became even bigger with 3.0. In some way they killed the middle class. When I look at 4.0 from a IO Mando or Watchman Sent perspective things will get even worse. Noobs ,FOTM players with RL issues and people who can shake off a bad habit will continue to play but the rest are slowly leaving this game IMO.

Operative concealment is by far the strongest dueling spec since 3.0 landed and it should stay that way IMO. Deception Sins were the best in 1vs1 for far too long. Same skill level dueling: concealment wins every time regardless of what you use: mara, sin, sorc, PT... Off-Topic: Current design of concealment is really bad for most regular WZ maps. ...and while they are super useful in Regs they are still behind Sorc's, PT's when it comes to most popular ranked feat; Yolo.

I missed your smallish text in this nonsense thread. I guess you gave me the answer; PVE... This reminds me of another unwarranted PVP nerf for the sake of PVE; removal of selfheals on Sin tank... Maybe it's time to leave this game for good... I'll check out 4.0 but from changes I saw it'll be even worse than 3.0 IMO.

Since you don't play Anni/Watchman I can see that you're looking at it like it's some sort of hatred/carnage hybrid which is far from reality. .....a few random hints that may help you & Dynami understand some basics about Anni/W: 1. Anni/Watchman is a "pressure" spec, no real burst here. You need far more TOT(time on target) than Carnage or Fury. Shorter dots only highlight this need for TOT even more. 2. Unlike Carnage and Fury you have no rotational melee/force attack outside of 4m except Saber Throw every 18 seconds. (melee is really important here) That's why Force Leap at full range & decreased CD has such significance for Anni/Watchman, because it is your only melee attack outside 4m except ST. I know from your responses that both you and Dynami have no clue why this is important for Anni/Watch. It's because of this feature that Anni/Watchman gets: Deadly Saber (CD 12 seconds!!!): next 3 successful melee attacks will make the target burn for xyDMG over 6 seconds. See: more short dots, TOT strikes again!!! When you take in consideration the duration of dots, cooldown and requirements (12sec, 3xmelee attack) of Deadly Saber, melee attacks at your disposal I hope you will understand why Anni/Watchman needs Force Leap (melee) on full range with decreased CD. ... it has nothing to do with rage/focus build You do know that without using Deadly Saber efficiently your performance will be like.....nothing, zero, nita ? You said that Force Rend will "effectively replace" Force Leap but Force Rend isn't even melee, nubcake It can NEVER replace the roll Force Leap has (see: Deadly Saber again). I hope by now you realize your fail in this thread, only a noob would call this upcoming changes a buff for Anni/Watchman in PVP. It's a downright NERF for one of the worst spec in current meta without any explanation from BW. NOBODY ever complained about Annihilation/Watchman on PVP forums so why a nerf?

Operating range of Force Leap will be reduced for 33%, it's CD will be increased for 20%. CD on your hardest hitting ability (Annihilate) will be increased for another 20% and you're telling me that the reduced duration of a DOT will make this spec better ?! .........because you THINK, ASSUME, HOPE Force Rend will get significant dmg buff?! Maybe you didn't notice but in a patch a while ago they reworked Cauterize (Dot) the same way they are reworking Force Rend (Dot) now. Did it make any difference? Sadly no... Decreased duration on Dot means you need to spend more time on target and since your gap closer just got it's operation range decreased for 33% and it's CD increased for 20% good luck with that! Except Saber Throw ALL other rotational abilities for Annihilation are 4m range. It's not like Annihilation has a hard hitting ability on a 10m range like Carnage or Fury. That's why Annihilation/Watchman needs Force Leap on full range, with reduced CD ofc....

How does improved rage build on a dot attack justify a NERF to the gap closer? I'm not complaining about generating less rage from Force Leap (Enraged Charge removed), that's not an issue. They removed this...... Close Quarters: "Reduces the minimum range of Force Charge by 10 meters and it's cooldown by 3 seconds." I wanted an answer from someone playing watchman not some wiseguy who obviously never touched the spec in 3.0.

Close Quarters: "Reduces a minimum range of Force Charge by 10 meters and reduces it's CD for 3 seconds." Force Rend: This is a 10m range dot that does X amount of dmg and lasts 15 seconds (9sec in 4.0) So how does a shorter dot replace a gimped gap closer? I've read the changes but can't seem to find any movement buffs tied to Force Rend, just slightly better rage management in 4.0 which was the last thing needed for watchman/anni. P.S. Force Rend has always been a part of anni/watchman rotation, dunno really what you meant by that.

I found this info regarding 4.0 mara/sent dot spec changes: " 1.Annihilate's cooldown has been increased to 15 seconds, up from 12 seconds. 2. Devious Wounds now increases bleed damage by 5%, down from 10%, for 4.5 seconds up from 3 seconds. 3.Deadly Saber is now granted at level 58, up from 26. 4.Rupture now lasts 9 seconds, up from 6. 5.Force Rend now grants 3 Rage, lasts for 9 seconds, down from 15 seconds, has a 15 second cooldown and no longer costs Rage. 6.Enraged Charge has been removed. 7.Close Quarters has been removed. " The last one is a killer (Close Quarters has been removed), not that increased CD on Annihilate or other listed changes help but the removal of Close Quarters seems to me like the biggest nerf ANY spec has received in upcoming 4.0 changes. I mean I have never seen anyone complaining about anni/watchman in any form of PVP since 3.0 dropped .... To nerf one of the least played spec (on RE at least) ..it's mind-boggling In 4.0 i predict even more madness sorcs, concealment opers, deception sins; now they form 70-80% of population in regular WZ's...it'll get even worse Imo P.S. I have nothing against sorcs, opers, sins (i play them myself) but 3.0 killed class variety and 4.0 will just follow the same path imo Maybe i'm missing something, maybe some more experienced player or someone from BioWare stuff could explain this...

...skill vs skill is a joke if we're discussing how good and class/spec performs when compared to others. Skill in this case should be taken out of the equation (you have to use players of the same skill if you want to compare different classes/specs). I'm am not rubbishing(?) you. I am just in disagreement with your claims.

Agree, so much stupid in this thread and you have a very big chance to win no.1 spot in this category, IMO. Nobody said mara/sents are trash but to say there are awesome.... I have to ask you one thing: COMPARED TO WHAT? I mean I feel a HUGE difference between playing my hatred sin/madness sorc or when I hop on my anni mara/IO merc. You along with Icykill are claiming complete opposite.... Oh mighty Darth Arunas maybe you could be the one to post a video of this awesomeness? P.S. I'm still waiting on Icykill's video of him destroying everything and....

Icykill: "They were nearly unstoppable and could nearly single handedly decimate teams... ... So I get to mids (lvl 30) and start smashing lvl 59s with ease..." It only takes to look at these two statements from your original post to confirm that you're misleading new players. I see you won't stop there and are going even further with your nonsense....trying to reason with you is futile. I mean I don't even know where to start so I'll just highlight your latest "best jokes" : ....."You certainly don't need it to know when to roll on an Operative... LoL" ... ......"I'm also not saying that Maras will always beat Operatives"...... ...." It doesn't matter what the class... It's always skill vs skill".... Hey, but maybe I'm just an assh..... who likes to contradict people on internet. Why don't you show me/us a few videos where your lvl30 marauder smashes lvl59 with ease as you say...... ....or your nearly unstoppable game play where you single handedly decimate the entire team... ...could you be a darling a post a few? P.S. I agree with you on one thing; operative concealment roll could be "nerfed" a bit for regular WZ but I would be very careful with that and add another defensive CD right away it that was the case... ....maybe the "immunity to everything" should end when the roll ends and not last 0,5 seconds longer? ....but then again, concealment is still not good enough for ranked so it's not an easy solution IMO P.P.S. IMO it takes a lot more to get from valor 60 to 98 than from 0-60. But who am I to contradict mighty Icykill? ..as you said I'm not even competent enough to play a mara

I have all classes with valor 80 or above. My main in 3.0 are mara and sent. They were valor 60 before 3.0, now my mara is 98 and sent 80 so I would say i have more experience than you in current meta. If you're beating an oper/scoundrel in any way in regular WZ's that's because they are bad/inexperienced players. Yet again you're misleading new players with misinformation........ Scoundrel dps is not an easy class to master; using roll at the wrong time and you'll get wrecked by any class. To know when to roll you have to have excellent knowledge about all dps specs. No other dps spec is so dependent on knowing other classes while using defensive CD's. Yes, scoundrel is together with sage and PT the strongest class for regs atm and class stacking of those hurts the most but it's also the hardest class to master. As I said you can go very far with an scoundrel/operative, it has a high ceiling...while mara is challenging to play, the ceiling is much much lower. ...again; I'm talking about regular WZ's here