yup i agree, while it is impossible to compare SWG to SWTOR on any level exept they both have glowstics. That was slightly over moderated in my opinion, but in defence of the mod, it would have descended into a flame filled troll fest full of e peen. We do see various comparison threads stay alive so i suspect its somethign to do with property rights between game publishers. there are forums elsewhere on the net far more suited to that discussion imho, and thats what i would have told him.

I may have missed it, but what was the FPS/lag like at hoth spaceport? This is the the first time i havnt rolled on a PvP server as i wanted to RP this game but in general even on PvP servers, spawn camping and ganking is a quick way of gaining a bad rep, and considered very poor behaviour. But then again i never played wow, the games that i stick with longer or sandbox, so SWG,Ultima EvE, Darkfall and minecraft (lol) are my gaming background. They are brutal in game but it seems to me the communities and expectations are different in themeparks so i wont criticise, i just think i am a different style of gamer than you see around here.

Nice to see some initiative being taken with OWPvP, however while spawn camping is questionable, even on a pvp sever its a real shame that this game doesnt support guild bases/cities. I have a feeling the whole server would have set up shop in In your guilds base if that was the case. Now that is quality PvP, with meaning and a good dose of politics mixed in. I really hope that gamers that have only experienced PvP in wow or tor one day get to see true RvR. They dont know what they are missing.

Seems to me that any data that is extrapolated from an unkown is unreliable, trends there might be, but if the value of what = heavy is constantly shifting because of the dynamic auto configuration thingie that keeps the server optimal then these graphs are comepletely pointless. There are only 2 reliable data sources i see, one is the official number of current subs that only EA have the info on, and the other is my personal experience. The latter allows me to from an opinion thats personal to me. the number of subs will most proabaly drop after the iniital free time.first month subs expire but the real question is by how much. If you are that confident that the number of subs is going up why not put your money where your mouths are and buy EA stocks? if the subs have gone up you will make a tidy profilt after their recent downturn. Even then asking if the game is a success is right back to being a matter of opinion not only to us but the shareholders.

Lies and statistics are often mentioned in the same phrase for reason, neither can be trusted. I believe trends can be seen, but i dont believe 3 months i nearly enough for a trend to classed as reliable either. Common sense known ; Xmas launch + plus inevitable drop off after the free period = inconsistent figures. I certainly played much more then over the holidays than i do on a working week. the best i can offer at this time is a hunch based on what i personally experienced. This is my truth and is in equal measure as valid as all your own truths are. If BW have been altering the server caps to cook the books then they will get caught and frankly is so dumb i struggle to comprehend it. there are still many milestones that will cause variations in these figures such as : the 3 and 6 month re sub milestones. The Asia launch, (yes i know we have lots of asian players, but there will still be some casuals that will buy the box on a passing whim, the majority do not read the forums.) On other forums i have seen people use this data in a way that erronous to further their own agenda in the much loved forum PvP, as in used a wednesdays figure Vs a Saturday primetime. The only statistic i trust is what my own eyes see, i take note of the station, and world populations, how long the PvP queues are and how many instances there are around the worlds. My only conclusion is that even if the subs are not dropping activity is. I havnt seen more than 1 instance anywhere for quite a while and my server is one of the more populated ones (EU Trask Ulgo). only when the 3 month sub ends, and when the next EA quartlerly shareholder figures are released can even come close to getting some kind of accurate figure. (If you trust EA accountants lol) This added to 3rd party server metrics will give some kind of answer. MY own personal opinion? There will be a sharp fall in subs at months 4 and 7 post launch but not enough to make this go F2P. This will be a successful MMO, in the sane vane that RIFT is, but it will never be the top dog. It is great at what it does well but its lifespan is short. The IP, and wide distribution will keep this game out there for a while yet. I wouldnt be suprised if there are server merges in about 4- 6 months. Dont ask for SAUCE, i reiterate my own hunch and experience nothing more than that.

I can understand why the haters pollute the boards, they are still subbed and bored.... but why are the same old fans spending hours exchanging the same old **** with the haters is beyond me. I think it completely supports the theory that the forums are more fun than the game. FANatics : Havnt you got some Endgame to go and gush over? I am also noticing another common theme appearing, check out the forum join dates of the the 2 factions. There most definitely is a trend forming. I have no doubt someone make some kind of 'WoW at launch' comeback again hoping it becomes more relevant each time it is said.

OMG i cannot believe even hardware fanboys have made it to this forum. Back on topic do you guys running SLi notice any difference on the Ilum framerates? Serious question - here that could save the PvP game for many.

If you are looking for a good analogy then may i suggest a pro sports team? We have fanatical supporters, we have fanatical haters. When the team is doing well then we all love each other and get complacent. When things start to go bad, you get a mixture of wait and see, give the coach a chance or those that call for the coaches head right now before things get worse. Flip a coin and see which outcome happens. Most of the time a downward spiral will continue until new ideas are introduced. For me the clock is ticking before i start calling for a new head coach. Or i pay my hard earned to watch a different team. Comparing this game to anything from the past or the future is futile, right here, right now people have issues, there is a lot of commonality with those issues too, and not just these forums but many others including general gaming forums and places like metacritic. There is a concnesus of opinion forming that no amount of blind fanboyism or hating can change. GW2 is a threat for two reasons only.... there is no subscription, and it offers the one thing TOR never will, and thats PvP on a mass level. Remains to be seen if it has anymore than that to offer, but as its free then it will be bought by many gamers and used as a second game at least, a lot like world of tanks or League of legends is now. IF GW2 offers other things that TOR or others MMOS doesnt then i expect GW2 will be the next big thing. Lots of ifs there but it least it wont demand a sub to find out. the reason games are launched sub par is because the fans find this acceptable. In no other area of life can i think where i pay my money and find it acceptable to be given sub standard products or service... or if they do they dont get a second chance. But as it happens bioware has some credit from me due to past excellent performances. I find it impoossible to imagine bioware does not have employees playing WOW, and i am certain Blizz have paid people paying TOR to keep any eye on whats popular and what isnt. I find /general far more informative than the forums for that kind of info. If they are not doing this then i can smell a very lucrative consultancy firm being established, anyone want in with me?

Allow me : http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001 I have had a long history of making MUDs and massively multiplayer games, and in working with and building them. I’ve come to the conclusion that both extremes have serious design problems. Worlds offer great freedom, but that freedom comes at a great price: they tend to be harsh, and offer the new player little in the sense of goals and direction. Many players are overwhelmed by the freedom, or can never find the fun. Often, a world is only as good as the people who have arrived before you – depending on that level of serendipity makes designers nervous. On the flip side, pure games have their problems too. Freedom is a true part of the magic of MMOs, and artificial constraints and mechanics can undermine the fiction and the sense that you are living in the virtual world – and when you have a brand as rich and textured as Star Wars™, the last thing you want to do is undermine it. Even worse, the depth and visual splendor of Star Wars™: The Old Republic would be completely lost if players couldn’t jump off the rails and just live in the space from time to time. I’ve long advocated that moderation is the way to go, and I believe on The Old Republic we are successfully travelling a middle path, a centrist path that takes the strengths of both: provide a directed and balanced game experience inside a lush, free-form Star Wars world. To me, as an MMO designer, community is the whole ball of wax. Let’s face it, if you wanted to play just a ‘game’, you’d be off playing a single player roleplaying game. If you wanted a ‘world’, maybe you’d play a life-simulation game. But community – well, that’s the whole ‘massively multiplayer’ part of MMO. When you look at it this way, ‘community’ is at least as important as ‘game’ or ‘world’ in this debate. Crafting is another area where we’ve talked a lot about community. The systems design team is not satisfied with some other crafting systems that we’ve seen, where many players craft almost exclusively for themselves. We’ve spent quite a bit of time discussing how to ensure that crafters – true dedicated crafters – can make a name for themselves and be important in their community. But that is a discussion for a future letter. Well i see no middle roads in this game, i see no community tools or interaction and the crafting is beyond pointeless. So yup i feel a bit cheated right now.

Why does this nerf thread keep getting ninja'd? Sort it out Bioware FFS.

is he referring to the 1.1 patch turret fiasco? that was ages ago wold be impossible to roll back that far.

This game would be worth the sub: http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001 Not the one i am currently playing though.

I actually downloaded STO again a few weeks ago to take my mind off being bored in fleet, i played STO at launch, clocked 18 hours on steam and uninstalled. I was terrible for reasons well covered in this thread. All i will say is, its not and never will be the next big thing, but it has improved massively. I cant go as far to say i recommend you spend money on it, but i have had a fun few casual hours on it. Worth the hard drive space imho, and costs nothing. To compare it to SWTOR though is bad, except as a way of illustrating that things get better. Im on a break from TOR, i really hope they give me a reason to come back like STO did.

Sometimes i think the genre as a whole has changed beyond all recognition and i wish MMORPG's would go back into the shadows and back to being a gaming underclass. It really was more fun then. Or i am willing to concede that maybe I have changed. This is the mmo i want to play right now: http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001 unfortunately, i am not feeling the experience is as described, if you feel you are getting what was sold then i am delighted for you. However i cant help feeling slightly cheated and thats where the anger comes from. This of course is my perception and i know this, but then so are all words.. the authors own opinion nothing more than that. Sooo 2 months in, where are we? well i know where i am frankly i couldn't care a less what anyone else thinks, but after reading endless posts buy fanboys and haters there is actually one uniting factor: Strong feelings about this game. I dont see many haters wanting the game to fail it is more disappointment than anything, why haters cant hate on hate posts, and fans post on pro posts and keep the **** out of eachothers way i have no idea. The trouble is everyone of us has our own playstyles and likes and dislikes, and MMO's in their very nature amplify this, and we very often people arguing the same point but from a completely different perspective. Lets look at generalised playstyles of an MMO : 1) PvE : Raider/story content 2) PvP 3) Crafter 4) Explorer 5) RP Now most players like more than 1 of those and when you think about it most have sub-sections withing them (see 1). The COMMUNITY is comprised of players that like a combination of those components. Now i must as a player decide where i get my enjoyments out of those, weigh up what the game offers and see if i wish to play it or not. Now here is my order of play style preference : PvP, Crafter. RP +exploring. I despise PvE play and only use it for a specific suppose, IE gear drop or material etc or just to get levelled. SO what does TOR offer me? Its strength is by far and away the storyline and PvE. there are lots of raids Of which there varying degrees of feedback about the hardcore say they are too easy... i dunno i dont do them, the thought of gear grinding as endgame content makes me cold. I did not play WoW ever because of this. So right from the start, TOR's strengths do not cater for my preferred play style. But i must give props where it is due.... my first 1-49 levelling put a smile on my face like no game has for a long time. PvP? By far and away the worst PvP experience i have had, made worse by the one thing i liked and thats using hybrid skill sets..... this meant that there were optimal sets but actually very few terrible ones. The announcement that my class (jedi shadow) probably the least moaned about class in game get a nerf making hybrids a bad move. (it was against the design intentions to have hybrids) tells me that that PvP really is an after thought and is cookie cutter by design. The rest? exploring? nope world are not big, and you get jumped by a mob spawn every 5 meters. Crafting: been done to death a serious crafter, the type that will devote a whole account to being the best gatherer of the best resources to get the best stats, to earn a server wide rep as a go to person for equipment is never going to happen in this game. I used to feel an enormous sense of achievement in SWG as everyday i would have a mailbox full of people wanting either my stuff or premium resources i spent hours/days looking for. RP- oh dear. no immersion tools whatsoever. IT is my opinion what is wrong with this game is not so much the content, its that little bit extra, what to do when not raiding or PvP'ing. In my opinion endgame content is a mix of ingredients, its socialising and community building. Once you get to endgame there is no real connection between you, your character and the environment. There is no internal politics and rivalry across the factions. When on Ilum i dont see the reds as players, they feel the same as NPC mobs, just fight a little smarter. Community is severly lacking, even the roleplayers are struggling to keep it credible. Once you realise that the awesome story mode makes no difference to the game world whatsoever, the only reason to worry about light dark alignment is a few trinkets on the vendors. It all comes back to connection with the environment. I just cannot connect to this game in a way that will keep me here for years. Even metagaming has its place in creating immersion and we certainly wont see any of that here. To me a persistent world is one that, lives, breathes and evolves, i dont see that here. No i will not **** and post elsewhere i paid for 6 months and im sticking around because i care and want so badly for this game to be the game i want to play. I dont think this is a bad game as such, i think it is lacking in many key areas, i dont think it has lived up to the hype, including that done by the devs ( see link above if you havnt read it), I am taking a break, i hope i see some of the things changed but i thing this game will never support my preferred playstyle, i hope i am wrong and all the fans can say 'We told you so'. Oh i can make a post about warhammers closed beta and release ( i was in the first wave of invites) and the similarites are remarkable in PvP terms. just saying. I love Star wars, in 1977 it was the first movie i saw at the cinema and have been in love ever since. I love Biowares games Baldurs is epic, and KOTOR is the most replayed game i have, and i keep my original xbox just to play this game still. Please believe i have no wish for this game to fail and want this game to be everything for everyone. I will never stop following it. BUT BW must get away from this story focus and take a serious look at what players do when not raiding or PVP'ing, no one wants to be on the go all the time for years on end. Unfortunately i dont think the framework can support anything other than raiding and PVP or it would be there or at least acknowledged on some level. that makes me a sad panda.

since the buff to slow time i tried a build similar to this and have to say it rocks..... i am going to change my build to the same as yours as it is better. I just wanted to throw out there that my PVP gear was inf orientated and heavy on Crits and surge stats, and i just wanted to say that when slow time and FB crits you can see the health bars of a whole group disappearing in a way that gives a healer massive problems. It was spiking far more than Shadow strike ever could. I would not suggest for a minute that this is a better gearing spec for a shadow tank but one for theory craft... at least until they give us battle logs. Wish i could give you guys numbers for this ive noticed it more than once..... i didnt notice FiB crit to the same extent when i played balance spec using the same gear. Stacking the debuffs of slow time, mass/mind control force slow and rotating the double strike/project is not only getting me more medals/valor in warzones but since playing this spec the groups i am in are winning far more warzones as opposition DPS is pretty much out of the game. You do get a lot of calls for acting like an assassin etc by those that dont understand our debuffs, you will never top the damage charts and farm MVP's but in terms of teamplay our damage debuffs and snares cannot be underestimated.