alucinorm
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Posts posted by alucinorm
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That last part urks me every time. Just as bad as when you hear the line "You can't say anything negative until it releases and you get to try it". Or my favorite "Your just jumping on the hate bandwagon. Gamers hating just to hate".
No, some of us have watched this happen time and time again. If we didn't care we wouldn't speak up. In the end staying silent or being an apologist hurts gaming more than being fair with criticism and then voting with your wallet. At the very least, this time, the mistakes BW are making have pushed me to play until December so I can better remember the classes before the change.
To be fair it took a huge back and forth to get at some sensible feedback. Even assuming this point of them messing it up for everyone is completely true, taking a hardcore stance in some sort of mental play to say removing skills is terrible and my point of view is 'objective' is hardly the best approach. Had some of the points in this thread been made instead I would have been with it from the beginning BUT both bioware and the forum majority were misleading about what was going on.
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It’s not the first time they’ve done this. If you’d play the game non stop since development you would know this is often a theme that Bioware repeat.
Which is why many of us long term players have learnt to be careful what you wish for cause BioWare nearly always misinterpret it in their execution.
Even though you can be as black and white in your request or feed back, BioWare often only hear the part they like and then twist it to fit their vision, not players desires.
It’s why we groan when we see some player requests and feed back because we can already see how BioWare will use said requests and feed back in a different way than is being suggested.
It’s also why we get so upset over white knighting for BioWare’s ill conceived ideas because we know they will take it as a green light to mess it up across the board so no one is happy.
Why do you think we have so few servers now and why some of the current ones feel like ghost towns during parts of the day.
Yeah I get it, my bad. I wasn't trying to white knight, I was just hoping for a combat revamp that would make me enjoy it more, seems like they are ruining it for everyone.
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Why not? They've done it before.
I see that they are making people choose between skills that are loved and keeping a bunch that people don't really care about (that much). The two in question (enure and force freeze) can go for all I care. They can completely disappear, but no they're still there. In my view the ability pruning by itself is not the problem, but as usual with BW, they WAY they are doing the pruning.
yeah I'm with you, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's almost unbelievable they would go this route.
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Greetings!
I resubbed earlier than planned just to make this post. I need to state right away that I recognize opinions are valid even if I disagree with them, it's about what type of gameplay you enjoy and I respect that. However, it's very clear that many many individuals don't see that, they write arrogantly as if their opinion is the only one that matters and is 'obvious' and 'objective'.
I feel the need to come here and show it's not that black and white, it's not a bunch of devs doing crazy things and taking your abilities away - there are actually gamers out there that this caters to and I'm one of them. Once again this is opinion it's not meant to convince you or say you're wrong, I'm only posting so you will see there are those of us who feel differently. I've spent thousands on this game and I'm coming back because of these changes or overall the strategic goal behind the changes.[/quote[
Okay, let's explore this.
1.) you dont' HAVE to use them now.
2.) they're both still here under loadout B of the guardian PTS.
I agree. I want to be able to throw a lightsaber at something (wait, they removed saber throw, damn), blitz through swinging like a madman (wait, they removed that too), hold up my lightsaber and reflect my enemy's attacks back at them (wait, that's gone too).
But don't worry, we kept the two abilities that you yourself said felt like 'bloat' so we could give up all the cool stuff.
So you're saying they are making dumb decisions within their intended plan, thus making no one happy. Well good point sir, I guess if they stick to that then no one will play the game anymore.
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Just what are you playing this game for, alucinom? You mentioned that you don't want to break "immersion," but that is all that you have said about your play style except that you prefer ability choices to be Spartan. It is unsurprising that you mentioned that you no longer do group content. No one these days wants to take an hour+ to clear Hammer Station or any of the other early FPs unless they're fresh to the game and its their first handful of playthroughs.
How many powers do you want to use in your optimal rotation? You do know that the game will permit you to use but a single action bar, right? The UI is very customizable. You might want to look into it. Just hit Escape and then click on Preferences to open it up.
Games cannot "evolve with the times." Computer code is static, and it can only be changed or improved if there is a will and a sufficient budget to do so within the company that owns the program. How often do you want the game to "evolve?" The development of this game at lanuch cost several hundred million dollars. How often to you want to see millions of dollars spent on change for the sake of change to support your "current year" nonsense?
My UI is highly customized my dude, every skill is keybound, I have a rzer orbweaver and logitech g600 mouse, I can handle stuff just fine. Again you're making assumptions like most people here that a different preference means stupidity or ignorance.
you're just mad I don't have the same opinion as you and you want desperately for it to be invalid so there will be no risk to your preference. Your assumptions about costs to spruce up combat are incorrect, other MMOs do it all the time.
But maybe you're right, previous reworks have been very hit and miss for bioware. Hate the most recent vanguard, the removal of mid range and channeled powers, lame.
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How can you know if you’re in favour of something that you haven’t even looked at or seen. That’s why your posts come across as nonsensical and non genuine.
It’s pointless even trying to have an educated conversation with you because you won’t even download and check out the changes.
How can you understand or talk about something from an educated point of view if you have no reference of the subject. So I’m going to stop replaying to your posts until you actually test the content.
I've gamed for decades, I've played dozens of MMOs, not to mention almost every game of note released on PC. Swtor is old and bloated, for someone who evolves with the times it just doesn't cut it combat wise. If you have to have 30 buttons, then FFXIV does that muuuuch better, swtor is essentially world of warcraft 8 years ago. I udnerstand some don't like change and they are very attached to their gameplay and like I've said that's perfectly valid. I only wanted to communicate that not every potential SWTOR player comes from that same place and so the majority of the feedback starts off with the wrong premise.
Same goes for your answers, they ignore my point and where I'm coming from. Right now if I played PTS I think I'd enjoy loadouts but find the rotations boring, Bioware will have to introduce far more change or they will lose everyone. I'll test it when we have more classes ready and maybe we will discuss then but based on your attitude I suspect it would devolve then as well.
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You are not supposed to give feedback based in intent, but on what is actually on the PTS.
The PR people are only repeating what they have been told, they do not know what the coders are doing anymore than we do.
Proof? I pointed out that the jedi sentinal was missing the hard stun on the PTS. this is what the PR people claimed:
https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9961292#edit9961292
They were WRONG.
Base your feedback on what is actually showing up on the PTS, not on PR and pipedreams.
This thread is addressed to you and yours, not the devs. If I manage to get on the PTS and test I would put my feedback in the relevant thread.
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And you can’t give proper feedback because you’ve not tried the PTS. Your argument is nonsensical and not proper because you’ve not tried PTS.
Read the title and the OP, this is addressed to you and yours, not the Devs.
My intent was to explain something to you, some of us are in favor of this design direction. Understanding that would help you. Instead of picking up little nuggets and burning strawmen.
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Incorrect, Trixxie and I have a difference of opinion but I have yet to be called a plant. We have discussed the difference and even though we disagree neither of us has called either a plant. It get suspcious when someone comes to the forum to one forum and post things and yet they haven't tried out the PTS to see how it works. While there are some good things I like there are also some abilities that need to be added back.
I have a problem with anyone who makes a complaint about the abilities without testing them. While I may disagree with those that have a different view than mine, I respect those that have actually took the time to test the changes instead of just coming to the forums and either complaining or liking the changes when they haven't even tried the changes.
It would be suspicious/dumb of a plant to admit they hadn't tried the changes. I didn't come here to comment on specific changes, I've mentioned several times that I am excited about the design intent behind the changes and wanted to point out that many are. The overwhelming feedback here is that the intent is dumb and they are just taking away buttons and how could they because it's so obviously objectively stupid to do so.
Ironically if some people here would internalize my comments it would help them make better arguments and actually convince devs to leave their skills in, it's about constructive feedback vs ranting/raging.
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See, but why does your hate of a "boring skill" need to dictate my fun when we could just keep them? Most people don't like Freezing Force, but it's one of my favorite abilities when combined with the utility that gives it a speed boost. I run a lot of NiM ops as a tank, and while most people don't need it, I think having an on-demand speed boost that isn't tied to a DCD is really nice in a lot of fights. I enjoy being able to click that skill, do a cool little animation around my character, and then be faster than I was before. If you want to take that fun away from me because you don't think having choices matters, that's just weird.
Hi,
I'm not arguing that they should take your ability away, I'm arguing that some players don't feel the same way as the forum majority and that it's subjective vs objective on both sides. So we don't disagree and you're arguing with a straw man.
To give proper feedback to the devs it should be with the understanding that players have different preferences and just because a majority of forum posters feel one way it does not make that objective or even a true majority opinion.
Your example is easily solved anyway, freezing force could be a choice competing against a smaller passive boost. You get your button, I get a smaller passive advantage. My OP is not about removing skills just to make the game fun for me, it's explaining that I prefer fewer buttons in general - there are many ways to achieve that.
The responses to this thread just proves my point, the game is full of close minded people that assume people with different preferences are noobs or stupid or even Bioware plants.
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What is defined as fun here? like that's a horrible argument. That is a thing completely subjective and unique to everyone with Like why is it not fun to hit enure? I love being healed to full in pvp because of a mistake my opponent made. What is a fun factor, like all of this is entirely subjective to every unique person and honestly it has less concrete arguments than the guy you criticized above.
From what I understand you don't even play the game, so how can you even say. From what I can tell it's "less abilities is more fun" - For whom. Because it makes the game a lot more boring and a lot less interactive to me.
You didn't actually read my post, the whole premise is people have different preferences, once you take that message in then of course when I say 'fun' it's in the context of the original premise which recognizes it's subjective. I only even went down that road because people kept trying to argue that I was wrong for having my preference so I'm simply explaining it further.
I don't play the game RIGHT NOW, but have over a 1000 hours in it most likely. Played first when it came out then many long periods of time after. Got all classes maxed which I guess everyone does but still.
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No, it's not. Just because I pay a sub and you pay a sub don't give equal validation to our arguments. And no, the forums aren't filled with 'Hardcore dinosaurs". They are people who know the game intricately and play the game intricately at a high level. Hell, even just a competent level. They actually do the content where the abilities all become relevant.
And let's not dodge accountability here. You've been caught saying you can't be bothered to learn the game because it's too complex and you don't understand what abilities do, but also haven't done the thing that teaches you to do this. That's like taking a job IRL, not going to the training for it, then complaining to your boss your job needs to be made simpler because you don't understand how to do it.
That screams entitlement
My argument is people have different preferences, you haven't countered that, instead you've had a different argument.
I've also not at all 'been caught' not wanting to learn the game. I curved mythic nyalotha before I quit wow.
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No I don't think it was. I dont find your opinion valid and I dont think the rest of us should deal with the consequences of it.
I don't care what you think is valid, objectively it's as valid as your opinion. What do certain players like and how much money are they sinking into the game, simple. And again you go with the 'rest of us' you have no idea how many players want to streamline this mess, the forums are vastly biased by some hardcore dinosaurs. Again dinosaur opinions are valid too, but there are other beasts on this planet too.
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Pretty sure I didn’t accuse you or even insinuate you were. Funny you would think I was talking about you personally unless I hit an unexpected nerve?
Now as for your other points.
Wild star failed, so I’m not sure we want to copy their failed game.
And FFXIV has nearly the same amount of abilities or more as some swtor classes, I’m not sure where you are going with that comparison?
I'm the OP and you're in my thread talking about how I guess someone else is a plant. I guess I assumed wrong then.
Wild Star did not fail due to the combat system, and even if it did it doesn't take away from the fact that there were players that enjoyed the gameplay style. Never talked about copying it anyway, just stated it was the sort of combat I enjoyed.
That was my point about FFXIV, there are more abilities than swtor in most cases, certainly more that are needed to execute your job properly. It's not a game where you ca just 'not use some abilities' I brought it up to counter the claim that I can't handle buttons. I enjoy that game, they pull the nr of abilities off, swtor def does not.
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They aren't changing rotations at all so far.
All that's happening is abilities that provided utility or were situational are being made choices, alongside various passives, such that players will end up with a net loss, and the losses are often things that were used in non-story parts of the game or by casual players that knew how to use them but did not necessarily need them in the content they played, i.e. animations that looked cool and were fun to use.
It doesn't seem like you've read over what's being done with the Knight specs or tried them out on the PTS. If you did, your post doesn't make sense.
An ability like Awe, for example, isn't part of anyone's damage rotation. You aren't pressing it to put up numbers. It's useful situationally in PVE, in solo content like heroics or chapters as well as in groups, looks cool, and fits the "fantasy" of using the Force, to use your term. It helps in PVP too, sometimes for objectives, sometimes to stay alive.
Is Force Camouflage an extra button that's needed for putting up numbers? No - it's a threat drop when you pull threat off a tank and sometimes a cleanse, and for solo players can be helpful to bypass mobs. It also makes the Sentinel/Marauder unique from other classes.
Transcendence? I use this in all content, whether leveling, in FPs, Ops, PVP, just to move faster. It looks neat too, and, again, to use your phrase, fits the fantasy of a Jedi Knight in that respect. For most players, I'd think it's a QoL ability that isn't available to other classes, allowing you to speed forward every 30 seconds or when necessary.
Force Kick? It's the Knight interrupt ability. I don't think BW has determined how interrupts will be handled definitively, but if we lose the ability in favor of something else, even a generic interrupt for all classes, Knights won't kick anymore. Again, that takes away from the feel of the Knight class, and removes an animation that looks good.
I could go on, but you get the idea. You'll still be pressing all the same buttons to do the amount of damage you'd like, as rotations aren't changing. Abilities around rotations are, many of which have been in the game since 1.x, and often add to or even are integral parts of a particular spec's identity. These abilities also have specific value attached to their use if playing anything outside the basic story content, which has been so easy since 4.0 your companion can often kill everything for you, even class story bosses.
In short, nothing about rotations will be "tighter", based on what's been presented so far. Folks don't agree with the changes being made due to being forced to choose basic abilities that enhance classes and make them unique, in addition to being part of how gameplay works for any content that still requires a person to actually use their character to complete it well (Vet or MM FPs, Ops, PVP, Vet/MM Chapters, Eternal Championship, and other areas of the game).
As mentioned plenty of times in other threads, it was always possible to keep ability bars clear of abilities you don't like or need, because of what you as a player prefer. SWTOR was my first MMO, the launch game era was much more difficult generally for newer players, but I never thought it was complicated or "too much". The worst I'd have to do is look up MMO slang/terms on google, or read over tooltips when a new ability was gained. On the other hand, when abilities are taken out of the game, or walled off behind choices presented as supposedly allowing for greater player agency, people can't somehow bring them back, nor do classes that were designed with a lot of heart, thought, and testing retain their feel when abilities unique to those specific advanced classes are no longer always at a player's disposal.
I only based this post around the complaints I've seen, your is the first I personally agree with and understand more now. If they prune reactive abilities like kick that's silly compared to some of the others. But your post does overall contradict some stuff I've seen so i guess I'll have to see for myself by logging in.
Would be hilarious if they left all the bloat but took inconsequential abilities out.
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That's the point though. Players have different preferences, and current long-time swtor players are used to the gameplay in SWTOR as it is now. Gameplay that has not radically changed in years.
I don't know what bioware is actually trying to do, but if they are trying to make changes that attract players who like FPS, reticule targetting, rapid apm games ... well I don't like the gameplay of FPS, reticule targetting, console type games.
I don't play those other types of MMOs, I play swtor. I like swtor as it is because being good at a class comes down to more than having fast reflexes and pure apm. You need to do more than mash a handful of keys as fast as you can, you also need to know what keys to hit in what order and when to break off standard rotations and do things like off-heal, off-dps, cc, interrupt, and use a dcd.
Currently you can become decent at a class by only using the main abilities in your rotation. To be really good at a class takes bit more time and practice. For story content you never need to learn more than the bare bones of a class, so there is no need to simplify.
It is possible that all these changes will make swtor more attractive to some people. It is also possible that the change will make the game unfun for some players. We haven't seen the final product yet, but what we have seen is not encouraging to me.
So far what I've seen on the PTS is not making SWTOR more attractive to ME. I really don't care how popular SWTOR gets if I am no longer playing it.
Completely fair. Only thing I will say is invoking rapid FPS etc is a strawman, it's still total classic tab targeting as far as I can see.
You're on point. By trying to please everyone they may please no one. Some of us like the old way and some a newer way, - I made this post because I believe the forum is biased toward one kind of player, the old school don't like change player.
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No it's not a trade-off at all. They already give people who want to use a few abilities, a way to clear all the content in the game. They also give players who like using more abilities, more difficult versions of the same content.
Way too oversimplified. This may apply to defensive cooldowns specifically but the rotations are a mess so it's not just skip ability x, because it breaks the whole rotation and you're left with almost no output. In the end I'm still a gamer, I'll use multiple buttons I don't like because it has better outcomes, I'd rather get those outcomes with a rotation that is tighter and that I enjoy. I'd rather have saber reflect with more impact than have to weave in enure.
I'd also hope these changes will bring more options for the core rotation, something that didn't exist at all before.
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SWTOR has 3 difficulties in group content: Story, Veteran, and Master
On Story mode you can just press 111111111111 and clear everything. If people don't "tolerate" that then they're bad players. This doesn't justify taking away abilities from people who actually like using them.
I'm like you, I like to just use abilities I find cool instead of just what is "optimal" or whatever. But this update is taking away abilities I like to use.
You can do that without death but not without everything taking ages. And again, it's a tradeoff, what players do you cater to in the end. i'm saying there is a player they are catering to, me, doesn't make either side wrong or right. From a business perspective is will more people like it vs not, a lot of dinosaurs here and they need to understand they are not the be all end all of this game.
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This is a tab targeting mmo game, it's always been about the hotbar. If anything, it's become more of a visually rich world in recent years because with the buffed companions and ease with which you out-level planets, you don't need to use all your hotbar. The game used to be way harder for casual and solo players and you needed to know rotations etc to do some of the things you can just afk for now.
It's a new era, for a game to be competitive or get better it has to change. Again people have different preferences but to capture subs like mine you can't stay 1999 everquest forever.
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You can already do that. In fact after 6.0 you can do every single content in the game with just using whatever abilities you find cool. The only place you need to use more abilities is the same content at artificially harder difficulty modes (HM, MM) , which means only the players who choose to do those. There is NOWHERE in this game that requires you to use Enure or Freezing Force. Your whole point is invalid.
I don't think my point is invalid but I hear what you're saying and that's basically what I'm doing but have to do it solo, no one tolerates that approach in groups. I'd also like to kill stuff faster. Playing suboptimally will mean you feel less powerful and with many specs the gap between whack a mole 20 abilities and fun is just too wide.
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It isn't my rotation, it's the totality of the gaming experience.
A barrier to entry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There are very few things about swtor in its current state that are hard to grasp. The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind.
Also for OP, this could help you out with Fury Mara if you haven't seen it already.
https://vulkk.com/2020/01/12/swtor-6-0-fury-marauder-guide-by-anatessia/
Yeah but that's not fun though, it's not playing a game in a visually rich world anymore it's a hotbar game. I can play it too, but all gameplay involves the rotation vs actually enjoying class fantasy.
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Greetings!
I resubbed earlier than planned just to make this post. I need to state right away that I recognize opinions are valid even if I disagree with them, it's about what type of gameplay you enjoy and I respect that. However, it's very clear that many many individuals don't see that, they write arrogantly as if their opinion is the only one that matters and is 'obvious' and 'objective'.
I feel the need to come here and show it's not that black and white, it's not a bunch of devs doing crazy things and taking your abilities away - there are actually gamers out there that this caters to and I'm one of them. Once again this is opinion it's not meant to convince you or say you're wrong, I'm only posting so you will see there are those of us who feel differently. I've spent thousands on this game and I'm coming back because of these changes or overall the strategic goal behind the changes.
Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy.
Clearly so many of you see this as vital because you look at it in the context of current balance, you like to click lots of things and again i can respect that. I however want to be a Jedi, I want abilities to be flashy and support my class fantasy not just reduce damage taken by a % in a rotation vs a boss.
To me swtor has become incredibly bloated, I ended up playing solo almost exclusively in the end so I could play the way I wanted and not have to play whack a mole with buttons that do nothing except increase your numbers in the log. To me that's not gameplay. I'd rather choose skills I like and have fewer skills so my fantasy isn't tainted by things I don't want to look at.
To me it's more important that my Bounty hunter uses his pistol in a visual sense than that he keeps all his buttons for mathematical output. So if I ever play tank spec I use basic attack all the time even if it's inefficient because it looks so stupid if I don't. There are tons of players like me out there. Bit of a tangent but still.
I couldn't be more excited about the dev teams plans, I wish they would have gone down this path long ago, I may not have unsubbed if they had.
We don't all think alike guys, you will make better inroads giving feedback if you stop assuming that you're all correct and the devs are doing this for no reason.
From a business perspective I guess it's all about how many like the changes vs how many don't. I wouldn't mind an option where you get to keep all your buttons with stats as they are and those players like me get to make a choice and thus get a buffed version of the chosen skill. maybe by opting out of enure I could get a second or two added to my saber reflect. Maybe by option out on some BH skills I can get a buffed basic attack. Either way if they backtrack to much on what they're doing I'm not coming back to the game, and I'm a player too just like all of you but my voice isn't as represented because most like me won't resub just to post in the forums.
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Some good suggestions here but I feel a certain flair for actual customization is missing. Too much binary thinking of 'defense' vs 'dps'. I would hope these tactical items are more about changing game play flair than min maxing numbers in ops. I'd rather have tweaks that are 'cool' for general combat than dps or even permanent rotation changes.
Some examples.
1. Dominant Force Lightning
Force Lightning channels for twice as long, does 250% more damage, cooldown is doubled
flair: damage increased by 25% for ever other skill on cooldown
flair: channels until target is dead
or
Force Lightning damage increases by 25% and channel duration increases by 15% after casting lightning bolt / chain lighting. stacks 3 times.
?WHY? - well how fun would it be to actually throw FL in here and there as a single target finish off that last mob, this is the goal whether the numbers I made up are on point or not. FL becomes a flair finisher or even a rotational replacement for ST.
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2. Afflicting Bolt
Lightning bolt now adds/refreshes affliction
?WHY? I hate casting affliction
Just two examples
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As I mentioned early, playing the beta for ESO is exactly why I'm debating dropping my sub to TOR. I found it highly enjoyable in ways that TOR simply isn't for me anymore.
Each MMO is going to have it's detractors and it's champions. I know people who love, love, love WoW or LOTRO or DCU Online or Tera or Guild Wars or whatever. I know just as many people who will swear up and and down that this game or that game should never have been released and will bring out the apocalypse.
I guess my bottom line is that any new MMO will offer me more for my sub that TOR does right now. Note - right now. I can play ESO for a year or whatever and if, in that time, there's actually new content for TOR I can switch back if I feel ESO isn't offering me fun for my entertainment dollars. In the two years I've been subbing there's been precious little to extend the life of TOR for me and I think that's what it comes down to.
The input here has been great though. I completely forgot about the "Preferred" status and I've got 4 months to stockpile my "free" CC in case there is something I want since I'll continue subbing up until then.
Thanks all
I admit, I am utterly amazed that anyone can enjoy ESO, especially if they've played other MMOs or TES games. All of the other games you mentioned I have enjoyed and preferred over ESO, it's literally the only MMO I played that I found no value in (Although TERA just had no soul, great combat though).
I wish you the best of luck though, suggest you keep an eye on Wildstar and EQNext, those are likely to be the next good MMOs.
The changes you all hate are the reason I'm coming back to the game
in Public Test Server
Posted
Haha fair enough, we still wouldn't agree on what they should do about it though.
Cheers.