I'd personally think space should be the main decider of this. After all, the largest army in existence can't do much against an orbital bombardment. Also note that Revan defeated the Mandalorians in part due to the mass shadow generator, which as a super weapon makes it harder to say Revan's fleet>Mandalore's if we can't count super weapons.

0.11 seconds off KI increases its hps by 5%. 200 more surge at 300 surge increases overall hps by about 0.8%. KI is responsible for about 30% of our heals. Therefore alacrity gives a 1.5ish% increase to hps, about double the amount surge would give. Thus, take alacrity. These amounts are minimal and won't make much of a difference, but remember that KI is the most crucial ability for saving lives.

This thread is going to turn into a rather lengthy argument Talyndor, so just take 300 surge then alacrity, we all seem to agree roughly on that. Azaranth's guide on alacrity (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=553249) is really good, and I'd advise anyone interested to have a read. The one I linked earlier is detailed to the extent of being unreadable, so use his I've quoted the bit I think is most useful: So the point isn't that alacrity is better than surge (it's not), it's that the diminishing returns for surge is so great that stacking alacrity is better. At 300 surge, stacking more of it is going to give you around 0.8% more healing on everything. Instead, stacking alacrity will give you around 5-8% more healing on Kolto Injection which accounts for about 30% of standard healing. Note that KI is used even more in burst fights where every bit counts (0.8% more healing in a HoT heavy fight is largely irrelevant anyway as we're usually overhealing here). Hope this clears things up, note that the numbers don't give values for adding 50 of a stat when you have 50, 150, 250 etc which would favour alacrity even more (and thus my math at the end is only an approximation). If you want to know where these numbers are coming from, use this: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-775.html, be warned that it's a lot more complex. Note that the point isn't to fit another heal in, it's to increase healing per second, which alacrity does better.

Well, in a burst situation you'd ideally be using KI or infusion if you had the chance: SP: 2.5-4k heal, 1.5 global cooldown v KI: 1.8 second cast & 4-7.5k heal with no GCD -essentially you get 1.5-3.5k more healing for 0.3 seconds longer -obviously you do have to be 1.8 seconds ahead of the blow that would kill the tank here -while my figures aren't exact, alacrity is thus incredibly useful in these situations -alacrity is 500% better than surge at 250 for burst because of some maths nonsense Really all we're talking about here is that last 100 hps, which when we're hiting 2100ish anyway doesn't really matter -it's more for those who care about absolutely perfecting their gear. I don't know why the maths favours alacrity, but it does so I do what it says

I suck at maths, but the reasoning goes that more crit is good, just at 350 crit more power is better (no DR on power). The actual value is probably some horrible number like 356.9128918247214 but the principle remains. The spreadsheet I linked can calculate the difference, I get other people to use if for me though since I don't know how

The story is the best in the game too if you're interested in that

Mathematically this post is correct, simply because overall hps is increased following this (KI->SP will be your basic heal with KP stacked). I'd personally advise running mox or another parser with surge at 300 for one (optimal sustained level) and surge at 400 for another (replacing alacrity with surge essentially). If you do everything the same, you'll find overall healing higher at 300 surge than at 400. Note that alacrity is 500% better than surge for burst healing at 300 surge, so 400 surge will really hurt in reactionary fights. This will all turn into repetition so I'll leave it at that To the OP: Ignore % values for crit/surge etc. These are basically irrelevant as the final value is determined by multiple variables. So, the important thing is the diminishing returns on the crit stat rather than the % of the crit value if that makes sense. Crit rating to 350 is generally accepted as where it should be at, irrelevant of the crit %. Most people give % values simply because you'll roughly end up there if you go for the optimal stat levels. Don't worry too much about reading the spreadsheets (I don't ) but they all come to the same conclusion for stat levels, I let people make them and just use their results. This is essentially what you should aim for: -Stack cunning obviously -Crit to 350 then stack power -Surge to 250-300 then stack alacrity These values are the optimal mathematically for a basic rotation of KPx2->KI->SP. You probably won't see much difference if you're a bit off these values, but if you're aiming for maximum healing power these are what you should aim for.

Concealment, play style is more enjoyable and you'll get to destroy people in pre-50 pvp too! That said, respecs are free now so find what's fun for you and run with it. Leveling is so easy now that it doesn't matter what spec you choose, more about what's enjoyable to keep you playing. (Lethality also suffers a bit before you get cull around level 31)

If you put in the effort you'll be able to dps pretty well and certainly well enough to beat enrage timers (the dps cap for concealment is 2200 I think [lethality is 2000*], the one I know hits around 1600 in actual fights). The problem sadly is that most groups are under the assumption that operative dps sucks, so will choose someone else. In fairness to them, I would always take the mara/powertech/sniper too if I didn't know the operative personally, simply because those classes can offer more (although stealth rez can be very handy). So basically it's viable but you'll have to convince people to take you if you don't already have a guild that knows how good you are. Pulling it off is very rewarding though, takes a lot of skill to do. *Concealment does more dps than lethality in a perfect sim, not sure how accurate this is for an actual fight

Sorry, but this post is incorrect. 400 surge is 100 surge too much, by aiming for that you're reducing your hps. As stated by most posters, anywhere from between 250-300 surge then stacked alacrity is what you should aim for (I prefer closer to 300 as I find burst healing easy anyway). That said, this relies on near perfect management of energy. More surge is thus prefered if energy management is problematic (as alacrity will make this worse if you're not on top of it). Hmm, haven't had time to go through this properly yet but looks very good. Have you had a look at the discussions on mmomechanics about alacrity (operative forum)? It's been a while since then so I'm always looking for others to do the maths for my inept mind EDIT: Found it (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-775.html), basically go to the end of the first post.

Hmm, I'd go an operative healer if you want to be a chart topper. In most fights a good operative can compete/beat a good sorc (heavy aoe excluded) but a sniper will always be beaten by a marauder/powertech currently. They're still incredibly strong, just not chart toppers. For leveling definately choose an operative. Stealth, mobility, and good damage in any spec (pre 50 obviously) make it incredibly fun to play. A sniper is strong, but leveling is far more dull (sit at 30 metres, shoot till dead). For endgame it's a bit more complicated. You'll never go dps for high end pve as an operative, so if you choose one you'll be a healer. The healing rotation itself isn't that interesting, so really it comes down to if you enjoy healing or not as easy fights for healing are thus really boring. That said, the hard fights can be a lot more fun than dps, where you just do your rotation as usual with a bit of moving around.

Apart from heavy aoe fights, I generally outheal sorcs so we can be pretty awesome healers. I would stay with medic personally, the spec is very strong for both pve and pvp if played well. I hesitate to say this but if you're seeing a massive difference in healing between sorcs and operatives you either need more experience with the class, or you're going up against significantly more geared/skilled players. If you're going to go dps, go concealment (lethality is harder and surprisingly hits lower). My GM went it as an experiment and hits around 1600 (in fights, dummy numbers are irrelevant imo) in unoptimised BH gear, which isn't as big as other classes but still very decent. That said, to do well with any operative dps you have to be very good. It is far easier to do well with an op healer than an op dps, I'd only advise going dps if medic is too easy and you want a challenge but note that against equally skilled players, you will almost always be the lowest dps.

A shadow/sin from experience, my GM has soloed a heap of flashpoint bosses on it. Dps die too fast and tank companions are pretty useless so healers suffer. That said, all operative healers should be able to solo all of the pre 1.5 dailies. Sins can quite easily too, not sure if they can do it as a fresh 50 like operatives though.

Not as simple as that actually. From memory, alacrity is better for burst above 250 surge and better for sustained at around the 300 mark (it's on mmomechanics, can't remember the exact ammounts). So for pve, anywhere between 250-300 surge and then stacked alacrity is fine. PvP however is entirely different. Aginst top players, you'll find yourself interupted constantly (You can try fakecasting, but not reliable and takes up time). You therefore want less alacrity and more surge as you'll never have the chance to cast KI anyway.I find in a top match I'll get about 10% of my heals from KI and the rest from instant casts, meaning that surge is better as alacrity will only affect 10% of my healing. The reason people don't like alacrity is that fasting healing gives energy less time to regenerate, meaning you drop into lower regen rates. This isn't too muc of a problem, as faster casting opens up a GCD where you can use DS to regenerate it.

I think the main concerns with powertechs is that they're really easy to do well with. Their lack of surviability counters them quite well in a group setting, but I think making the class a bit more difficult to play would benefit everyone, both the top guys who find them boring to play and the lesser players who think they're good.

I don't think the noxxic spec is very good, medshield is pathetic for pvp it pops way too fast. The 31/3/7 build is very strong and the one I use, the reduced cooldown on debilitate/dirty kick is very useful. The hybrid build can be decent, there are a few on my server and they do pretty well with it. That said, I will beat them in my spec by 100-300k, so really it depends what you want to do. You shouldn't really be short of TA as a standard healer, there's always someone below 30% to heal (helps to increase the size of the group frames and stick percentages on) so really all you're gaining is a bit extra dps, which in heavy fights isn't really needed. I've also found I'm kiting too often to use lacerate, where the instandt cast of the aoe is really useful. However, since respecs are free now try out all the builds and see what you enjoy http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffrzGoRzsZ0cZGb.2 - This i use and I think most others do too.

You misunderstand the point. Melee naturally get more cooldowns because they are obvious and can only attack at 4 metres. They are generally noticed and attacked first because to hit you they must be in your face. Ranged dps need less cooldowns, partly because they can do damage at 30-35 metres, partly because they are less noticeable, and partly because they can kite and still do moderate damage. Please note that marauders can't cloak away and heal. Healing for a marauder is only possible in annihliation spec (excludes rage and carnage) and can only occur if dots are up (so limited if running away). Assuming he is attacking you, the maximum healed will be 18% with full dot stacks, so not really healing himself back up.

Operatives are actually surprisingly strong. Heals obviously, but dps can do quite well too. I've been guilty of mocking operatives, so my GM rolled on, and manages a pretty respectable 1500-600 in untoptimised campaign (we carried him through it). More utility would be nice though.

I'll give it to you on the aoe burst point, my error for forgeting that. However, I've never really worried about smash as an aoe, 3+ people standing beside each other for the smash is just plain stupid. I think most of us agree rage needs a minor nerf too. I'd agree with partial balancing for 1v1s if that didn't detract from group pvp (which should trump all), I was getting a bit irritated at people insisting 1v1s were the sole determinant of a class and so generalised slightly. I don't really like the rock paper scissors system though, as long as there are counters to a class I see no need for classes specifically suited for defeating another. I prefer skill deciding the winner where possible (limited by the need for group balance, but that's as it should be).

I'd support this, most people who join late leave from my experience which disadvantages the team further. For those who are against it, a quick look at the queing system shows why this is needed. If I'm in the que before a warzone ends, I'll get preference over those who just exited. However, if I join the warzone my place in the que depends on how fast my loading times are, so essentially I could miss out on the next pop (which I wouldn't have if I'd not taken the pop) because I joined at the end. Not fair or fun.

This is true sadly, but I think most will agree PTs were too easy to do well with. I really hope Bioware stops constantly nerfing, not fun for anyone. Snipers actually have a lot of defense, just not in the form of cooldowns. With tonnes of roots, knockbacks, absorbs, white damage avoidance, cover, etc they are very strong defensively. Maras are still stronger defensively, but as a melee dps this is how it should be. As an aside, mercs need some of these

True, but not every class is suited to node defending and balancing to account for 1v1s with all classes would be a disaster. Node defending requires the classes that are best suited to it (mara, op, sin, sniper arguably, potentially others). PvP as a whole means that this cannot determine balance, you just have to roll with it. PT burst is significantly stronger than marauders and cannot be countered well outside of a long cc. Can't be interupted (like ravage), cleansed well (like annilihation) or kited well (like rage). They do drop quickly when focused which is exactly as it should be, they are a class cannon, burst balanced by lower survival. Note that UD is a defensive cooldown, of course they're going to be better off if they use it, what would be the point otherwise? Other classes have access to other defensives, but the nature of those defensives mean they should be used at a different time. UD just before death, most others just before damage is taken (clever applications aside). I agree with your point about not focusing marauders first. This is perfectly fine as they can be countered well enough to avoid needing to be focused immediately. A good team will notice when the cooldowns are used and focus then if need be.

I'd agree with this, but it makes the point that marauders are not the sole good class (I certainly agree they're not a viable blueprint, way too easy to do well in). The viable classes are all excellent when played well and relatively balanced between each other. In my view, the non-viable classes need to be buffed up to this level, rather than 1 of the viables getting brought down. 15k in 4 seconds requires 7.5k per hit (GCD= 1.5 secs, UD lasts 4 seconds so only 2 abilities can be used) which is almost impossible for a marauder. Would be possible with rage, but 1 spec shouldn't determine class balance and most agree rage needs a bit of tuning anyway. I would certainly take marauders in world pvp, UD would become even more crucial with the masses of damage flying about (predation would be even more powerful too). Cloak isn't a problem as it only lasts a few seconds, just keep an eye out for where they pop up. Note that they aren't immune to ccs either, requires the use of cooldowns (and then only limited) that would have been useful if not 'wasted'.

Er, who cares if someone can win 1v1s? If you're in a 1v1 you're not playing objectives (unless guarding/soloing a point). Powertechs still have the highest damage output in PvP and are arguably the easiest dps class to play, strange that this is not mentioned. To be honest, I think the real reason marauders are played so much are the dual lightsabers, the single pistol for pts isn't as exciting. I personally love predation, it opens up so many possiblities in pvp. Ideally there would be more utility abilities like it. I don't understand this fuss about healing during UD. If a healer stops healing everyone to burst a mara back up, he cannot heal anyone else well in that time. and if he's a op or merc, could drop into a lower energy band and gimp himself until it regenerates. Note that if we're talking about balance in high level pvp, my heal with be interupted by the dps assigned to shut me down, so I'll only be able to use a hot and my minor heal. Not really that intimidating Without the healing it becomes a 4 second life extender as straight afterwards you will die, ruining it as a defensive cooldown (1v1s are irrelevant in serious pvp). I wil revise my opinion if you can prove this will improve balance (godmode QQ is not a reasoned argument). Edit: Someone said marauders should be used as the template for class balance, I'd agree with this. They have 3 viable specs, require good use of abilities to do well and offer a good utility ability. They're fun to play and other classes should be the same. I did forget to take account of surgical probe spam in my initial statements, which will most likely be the heal used. Assuming 40% crit for an operative healer, he would able to get 2 probes off (GCD of 1.5 seconds x 2 = 3 -will get a third off half a second later assuming mara survives the 0.5 seconds) there would be 1 crit and 1 standard heal. This means a total healing of about 5.5k (3.5k crit, 2k normal) with 2k more soon after. This equates to about a quarter of the marauder's health and is operative only, proving with skilled players UD is less of a concern (with no interupts would be about 10k -two injections one crit one normal).

I don't disagree with you on the issue of balancing, but remember that SWTOR is a business, and catering to a niche market (hardcore pvpers) over everyone else is not profitable. They were stating facts and he irrationally insulted them for doing so, that was why I responded. I disagree that pvp in swtor sucks and will always do so. If you play one of the viable classes (or the others really well) pvp can be really fun. The nature of mmos means concerns will be fixed and new ones created, just how it is. Once they work out how to make the engine viable for massive pvp battles, we should have an excellent game.