Then post something similar if it isn't "that big of a deal"? I've played with and against Aluvian and Merkave (on my PTech- Kagetora) and that usually means it's a good day or a very bad one. On their own they can change the course of a WZ, and baby Jesus forbid any other of the ID players queue with them. I'll never post those numbers, but I'm cool with that, although I'll keep trying (460K 2 WH pieces). Difference is, you're not as l33t as you think you are and have to tear someone else's achievement down. It's just ol' fashioned azzhattery on your part.

I've played against you on the Shadowlands and what you do with the gimped class is amazing. I have a lot of respect for you keeping with the class (get some more vids up already). I've recently rolled my own Gunnery Commando (LvL 30), but I have a 50 Corruption Sorcerer, 50 Vengeance Juggernaut and a 50 Pyro Powertech, all of them in a mix of BM and WH. I've enjoyed PvP'ing with them immensely, but I'm enjoying my Commando more. Perhaps for the challenge of it? But when the melee train starts, it makes me want to rage...I know it'll be worse when he hits 50. And yes, there are some Juggs/Maras on Shadowlands I'd like to introduce to Asukaa (sp?) like Merkave, Kinshin, Aluvian, Sage'Optimus, etc. This whole thread isn't a reference to individual skill as much as it is about the shortcomings of the AC. If pillar and catwalk humping are our saving graces and if Rateds won't take a Gunnery spec (generally speaking), isn't that enough of a clue?

+1 for troof. I have a 50 Corruption Sorcerer, 50 Vengeance Juggernaut, and a 50 Pyro Powertech, all of whom I've PvP'd with extensively and enjoyed. I recently rolled a Gunnery Commando (LvL 30) and while I know it's lowbie PvP at the moment, I've never had such a love/hate relationship with a class. Once the melee train starts, it's over. This is especially true at 50, where I fight Commandos. I don't know what the magic bullet would be, as I'm stil leveling, but surely BW/EA you didn't intend pillar and catwalk humping to be our only saving graces? The slow on our knockback is enough to get off one more grav-round (maybe), our popsicle grenade distance was LOWERED and a root on Stockstrike so I can now eat a full Ravage. Keep damage where it's at, but give us some chance at survival. Not the full arsenal like our 'slinger bretheren, but something?

I like the rotation you describe as SG (ED) and AP (TD) are now on separate cooldowns. I don't use IR (IM) all that often as I seem to have good luck getting my burns with my HS (RS), and by the time I'm within IP (FB) and SS (RP) ranges, I'm resetting the proc for another RS (HiB). I've always viewed IR (IM) as simply a proc "inducer". With your parses, perhaps I ought to look at it as a bigger source of my DPS? For me, perhaps the nerfs are a gift to change things up? Will play with these tonight. Appreciate the feedback.

They are PvP questions. Anything else of particular value you care to add?

I haven't had the chance to log in since 1.4 went live, but I've been through the patch notes and some of the discussions on the forums. A few questions for you PVP'ers: 1) How significantly have the range nerfs altered your playstyle, if at all? Outside of my "opener", I find myself within 10M anyway almost all of the time. I'm usually saving my stun for my Sentinel friends anyway... 2) I read (not in patch notes, I don' think) that TD and ED were on separate cooldowns. True? And does the range nerf on TD also apply to ED? If not, do you find yourself using ED instead? 3) If the range nerf on TD significantly impacted your playstyle and you use ED instead, have you in turn left the full 31 point build and spent the points in other trees? 4) Finally, have any of you re-specced into AP because of the changes to both trees, and if so, some general thoughts on the contrast in styles? I appreciate any constructive comments. If you feel the urge to QQ about the PT changes, go find another thread. I, and am sure others, are just looking to adapt and get better.

This is like solving the mystery of what came first, the chicken or the egg... I've been on both sides of gearing up toons in PvP, as all of you have. There's the painful moments and the high-five moments (I am that old). I think a lot of the gear QQ comes from first impressions of those entering 50 WZs. As a Recruit geared player, you will be on the receiving end of many a curbstomp from a fully augmented WH. Thankfully, it doesn't take long to hit full BM. It's quite the grind to full WH, but BM and augmented BM at least keeps you in the fight. But I think it's that critical first week or two where potential new players are turned off completely. And that's a bad thing. Already populations are dwindling and surely more people PvPing is better for all of us? As hard as I try to convert more guildies to PvP, I'm only one of two that do it (and I love my guild of old rough bastards). This means I PUG. Because ranked seems to be dying, I'm usually either grouped with a four man premade (and we faceroll) or an eight man PUG (at which point I break out my tissues and some special ointment). I do well enough that it's at least entertaining, sometimes frustrating, but again, I can see how this can turn off someone relatively new to 50 PvP. I disagree on one point though. I don't think PvP is dying because of casuals (like me) playing with LEET's (at least on my server). I'm a professional with a family, but when I'm on SW, it's PvP. I've been an athlete my whole life, so I have the objective / teamplay thing down to perfection (lowbie PvP makes me want to spit nails). Maybe I'm an exception to the "casual" rule, but I think PvP'ers are leaving because of the same four WZs, lack of World PvP and the dying ranked PvP. I think if that was addressed first, there would be a flood of re-subscribers. Then, perhaps, we could work on segregating the higher tier / valor / geared players from those just entering PvP. I think that was RWZ's intent ? We can scream bloody murder about what should be: max your comms, form your own premade, etc., etc., but the reality is far different and will unfortunately remain so. We're left to deal with what is - and that means segregating the casuals from the "pros", either along basis of gear, valor, expertise, WZ time, etc. Wish I had the magic bullet to fix it. I really want all aspects of this game to succeed.

Hopefully the new Recruit gear makes it a little easier to keep a larger portion of the community engaged in PvP. I think the overall state of PvP is why the numbers are sadly dwindling, not necessarily the gear. But that's another story... The old grind was a cornholing of spectacular proportions. My point is that it sucks for a new 50 just as it sucked for us lowbies way back then (I have plenty of alts, some recently dinging 50 and yes, I max my comms). Surely we can understand the OPs "misery", so isn't there a way to satisfy both parties? Some will continue to grind, but we will lose those that don't have the desire, the time, or the stomach to put up with the initial stomping (the whole 1st impression thing). PvP isn't a statement of my manliness (my floor length beard and three blz are testament enough), so it isn't about "sucking it up" or "L2P", it's about maximizing the number of people PvPing.

Did you take your turn being undergeared as the PvP gear progression is currently structured? If so, completely ignore the rest of this. You're fully augmented WH and if I took another glance, I bet min/maxed. You put the time in, earned the rewards and that shouldnt be taken from you. You don't know me, but I've played on your team and against you and you put up crazy numbers. But I find it hard to believe you weren't grinding along with all the others grinding WH at the same time and thus you didn't face the disadvantage that new 50s face now. Sure, BM makes you more competitive, but against a fully augmented WH that's min/maxed, good luck. Especially as those geared in that manner tend to roll in four man premades. Surely there's a way to keep the new 50s engaged in PvP and thus being new fodder or competition for you. I don't know what the answer is and I'll continue to grind, but surely there's a solution to keep the most people engaged in PvP as possible.

I agree with both sides of this debate on certain points. I think there's two things to consider: the individual experience and the overall PvP experience. Individual Factually, there is a gear gap that provides an advantage to those who have WH gear. Having WH certainly doesn't equal an automatic win against BM, but it usually does against Recruit. In Recruit, it was not fun being curb stomped by a fully augmented WH, and in some Warzones I felt like the shortbus was driven over me continually. But, if you persist, do your dailies and weeklies and earn your BM, it does get better. As a professional with a family, it took only a week or two to get fully BM geared (about two hours a night). It's imperative you really understand your class' strengths and weaknesses. I don't expect my BM Sorc Healer to stand toe to toe with a WH Sentinel. At the same time, my BM Pyro PT has burned down WH Vanguards. If you can deal with that pain in the interim, you'll be fine. Some people can't and that's okay too. It doesn't mean they "suck" or are "bads", it just means that the process doesn't fit their definition of "fun". Their $15 is just as valuable as yours from BW's perspective. It's BW's job to find a way to keep all parties happy...and good luck with that. If the forums are any indication, most of you are miserable little cretins. But I digress. Overall The more salient point is not necessarily the gear issue in one-on-one fights, but the PvP experience as a whole. Most of my grief (and I'm sure the OPs) is an eight man PUG running up against the four man premades (or if we're REALLY "lucky" four plus four). Unfortunately, I'm only one of two PvP'ers in my guild, and don't have the WH gear yet to be on par and queue with a premade (the whole glass ceiling thing). I'll probably keep going as it's usually 50/50 PUG group vs. queuing with a four man. On my server, the hardcore amongst the PvP'ers are known and as another poster suggested, being on their team as a pugger, is nice. Running against them, not so much. Even if you form a premade of your own, it may still be difficult to overcome the gear gap, but certainly the experience would be better. The WH grind is lengthy and as rateds seem to be dying, that grind will lengthen. I think only having four (soon to be five) WZs and no real "formal" World PvP is killing PvP in general. I don't know if there are easy solutions and I certainly don't want gear for free, but I do know all of this contributes to players leaving and dropping the number of those queuing. That's not really good for anyone.

HA HA HA, wait...what? Suck it up? Are we describing a video game or a post-op colonoscopy? Hardships? Endure? Put the e-thug in you away for just a minute... This comes down to two different definitions of fun (and everything in between): those like you who enjoy the grind and the advantage that gear brings, and others who can't, or don't, enjoy the grind but very much enjoy PvP. Those are opposite ends of the spectrum and because both views pay the same amount of money, it's BW's job to see that both are satisfied to maintain those subscriptions. Is it possible? I don't know. I do know they need a lot of carrots to keep us addicted because of the lack of end game content... No one said they wanted free gear. In order for PvP to truly to become skill vs. skill, the gear advantage has to be removed by grinding a long time to get that gear. I'm a 34 year-old finance professional with a low six-figure paying job, a hot wife, and three sons. My weekly work hours are longer than the standard 40 hours. In between working at a good job that I love, making more babies with said hot wife, raising well-adjusted kids, and patrolling my neighborhood at night for crime in only my tube socks, I have no desire nor the ability to grind that gear out. Does that mean your gear should be taken away from you? Absolutely not. You worked very hard for it and deserve it. Does that mean I should receive the same simply because of my situation? Certainly not, I didn't put the time in. But that does mean the enjoyment I get from PvP is significantly diminished at a certain point, and because of equal footing in what we pay for our version of fun, we should at least be heard. I'm sure there are plenty of folks like me, and I think the less people you have PVP'ing is worse for all. Personally, I'd like to see BW find a happy middle ground. Anway, let the hate out of your heart, Jesus loves you and all your nerd rage. LARRY ROW - 11/10 internets for you, good sir. I agree wholeheartedly. May your enemies have the fleas of a thousand camels rest upon them.

Agreed. I followed this "path to enlightenment" myself. Although we Pyros are condition dependent for our railshots, it's very, very easy to apply the necessary effect. However, unless I'm playing the Pyro incorrectly, aren't we already primarily in melee range? We are dependent on Rocket Punch (65% chance) and Flame Burst (45% chance) to reset our Rail Shot. Once Rail Shot is up (limited by the change to the PPA proc), I'm firing it off no farther than 10m away, but usually right in your face after hitting Rocket Punch. That's the core of our damage (including my favorite, the Flamethrower (only for looks), which is interruptable). TD is only a starter as we run at you preparing to engage in our nefarious activities. We don't toss it at 30m and stand there waiting for the rainbow colored explosions of our enemies in one giant, hot-enough-to-cook-bacon cooldown. As far as distance is concerned, to get a Railshot at 30m, we have to use the very expensive Incendiary Missile (and it should be expensive). I'm only ever using that at the start of a WZ or when respawning with some distance to the enemy. Unload for a Pyro is a waste of Heat compared to damage output and I'm only using it as a type of finisher if someone is being focused. Death from Above is on a long cooldown and most classes have some sort of AoE anyway. These ranged attacks are far from what puts the rest of the communities' panties in a bind. To say we rely on these attacks as our main source of punishment seems uninformed and easlily remedied by rolling the class yourself. If a Pyro is sitting between 30m and 10m then they're "doing it wrong". Our Merc brothers are the 30m kings (buff them please). The only ability I have to kite a Marauder/Sentinel is Flame Burst, when it's talented with Sweltering Heat, to reduce their movement speed by 50% for 2 seconds. They also have the ability to do the same with Leg Slash with 50% for 12 seconds. I can't spam Flame Burst to hit 12 seconds and usually I'm moving back into melee to Rocket Punch to reset Rail Shot, which means they can get off a Leg Slash. As it is, they are the most frustrating class to fight because of their Guarded by the Force and Force Camoflage, but without those, it's a great chess match, and I actually enjoy the fight. Lessening this range for us would put a serious dent in our ability to combat that class. Otherwise, lessening the distance on Flame Burst will have no impact on my play.

Given the variety of experienced opinions, I'll just have to try it out myself. I seem to remember some theorycrafting on MMO Mechanics that said the DPS was fairly close between talenting your Aim and TD, but I'm old and my memory is foggy. If DPS seems to be about the same, I suppose it would come down to my ability to manage the increased heat with it. I utilize my taunts exactly as you describe. It doesn't seem to be rocket science, I'd just like my fellow PTs on my team to use them often and well. If we happen have a friendly healer, while I won't use guard, I will stick with them (whether they heal me or not) and save my single target for them. I'll always peel and burn down the enemy. The AoE is always saved for the masses. If there's no friendly healers, the single target is saved for a Sentinel and then a Gunslinger that's engaged with a friendly. oredith - rightly or wrongly, I will hound a healer the entire match. I'm a glass cannon and I'm going to die, so I'll blow everything to bring them down (of course not letting the objective fall if it's in danger). Rinse and repeat every respawn. Healer sammiches... Dakota - big fan of Taugrim! I was levelling as Iron Fist until it was nerfed, then switched to Pyro. Will also try the AP spec soon. FOTM or not, this class is hella fun to play. I enjoy it much more than my 50 Sorc and 50 Jugg.

Thank you both for your responses. Hopefully I play smart enough not to use Explosive Dart during a cap while my Sniper buddies have everyone mezzed. That's one of my great frustrations as a Gunslinger. Perhaps I'm using "utility" incorrectly, but in the AP tree I take Puncture, Prototype Burn Enhancers and Prototype Cylinders (six points - could put more to get Hitman -25/12 split). Those all seem valuable if I don't use TD. But my follow-up question is on the taunts at 50 PvP. I know I'll get the glow-stick crowd's attention because of my class, but do I not taunt because of my class or because of the mechanics? Meaning, do I "steal" a tank's taunts if I'm firing them off as well? I certainly don't want to do that. But, if it's more of a qualitative thing in that they simply don't like that, I can understand not drawing attention to myself. Then it becomes a question of reducing damage via taunts versus the DPS loss to my team by dying. I think that's what you're trying to say?

Should I go thirty-one points in the Pyrotech (PT) tree to obtain Thermal Detonator (TD) or, should I go with twenty-five to twenty-eight points in that tree and pick up what seems to be a nice bunch of utility from the Advanced Prototype (AP) and Shield Tech (ST) trees? My PT is level fourty-four at the moment and I'm sitting at twenty-eight points in the PT tree. I've spent my other points in AP and ST. Quite simply, as I make my way through my opening rotation and/or what soon evolves into my priorities, there seems to be something missing, almost like there should be one more skill to fill things out. I don't know if it's quantifiable, but do you veterans (if you've played with the point allocations) find that the utility seems to trump the use of TD, or is TD the filler I feel like I need? I do very well with my heat management without TD. If TD is a major factor in heat management (don't know, asking you), perhaps the utility skills are better as managing heat seems to be the biggest factor overall in our DPS, rather than a single skill? I appreciate any feedback. Also, a quick aside for lowbie PT PvP'ers (like me): USE...YOUR...TAUNTS...EVERY...COOLDOWN: single target taunt Neural Dart at level sixteen, and Sonic Missile AoE taunt at level thirty. I don't know if I'm just a weirdo, but I LOVE the fact that I have ranged taunts. Despite how fun this class is to play with all of its damage and mobility, the most satisfying for me is being top of the scoreboard in Protection points. Since I obtained my AoE, I can usually hit 20K to 30K in protection, while still out DPS'ing most everyone in the WZ (not a function of my skill, but rather the class and my level compared to others in the WZ). Use them and love them...pretend like every time you hit those taunts you get the taste of bacon in your mouth. Because only commies don't like bacon...

I'm 35, a successful CPA in Pittsburgh and most importantly, a father of three incredible sons. This is my first MMO, but I've been gaming since the Nintendo debuted. Love being a team player (played college football) and would really enjoy passing the time with some mature, like-minded individuals. Here's to hoping we can round up on the age requirements? I'm running between a Sith Marauder, Jedi Guardian and Imperial Sniper, but would be willing to re-roll. I can't remember my East Coast server at the moment, but will post it later.