This x10. The wtfomgtabdischargedotspamlolwinnarz!11! argument is really getting tiresome. 5 minutes with the spec should be enough to illustrate the fact that Tab Discharge Spam Syndrome not only isn't fun, but its wildly ineffective. You'd be more useful spamming Saber Strike an entire match. You'd also put up better stats. Managing a rotation of 3 DOTs isn't spam, it's rolling force regen through Deathmark - what separates the good from the adequate is being able to maintain DoT/Deathfield discipline over the long term. Anything more than 3 DOTs is inefficient, actually drops your DPS as you sacrifice Force and GCD by not using other skills, and ultimately is just a real annoyance to micromanage.

Very generally: --Death Field (range of the AOE regarding CC takes a bit of getting used to, be careful) --Tab-Discharge the 3 with deathmarks (assuming none of them are long-term CC'd) and throw Creeping Terror on one of them to start force recovery rolling. --Shock periodically to keep Unearthed Knowledge up --Thrash around for DPS and Raze proc, followed by Crushing Darkness every time it procs. I usually alternate between Thrash and Saber Strike initially until Raze procs and I get a good force regen from consumed Death Marks. At that point it's all about micromanaging Death Field/Death Marks and Tab-Discharge (no more than the 3 targets with deathmarks) to keep force regen steady so you can Thrash/Shock. And, as always, keep an eye open for utility/interrupts as needed. Don't be afraid to throw Creeping Terror or Crushing Darkness on alternate targets, especially if current target is close to death. Madness doesn't rigidly follow a set rotation - it's all about responding to the scenario as it develops. You have a lot of tools, you'll end up using almost all of them regularly.

I'd counter with this. (My build is a little heavier on a surgical strike style of PvP but works well in PvE also) Personally I don't think EE is worth the 3 points because it applies only to the charge Proc, not the discharge, so you're talking 3 points for an extra 25 damage on your proc. For those three points I think you get more mileage out of 2/2 Insulation and 1/2 Dark Embrace. Also, I think the 2 points is better spent in Sith Defiance (or even Corrupted Flesh) than Torment. YMMV. Absolutely agree.

This, it's situational, not meant to be spammed.

Just to echo what others have said: Talos. I beat Thanaton easily as a full Madness Assassin, Lightning Charge. Had very little trouble using Talos. I keep him fully geared so my health barely ever dropped below half. Interrupt when you can. Don't be afraid to use Shroud. Pro-tip: turn off Talos' carbon spray. In hard fights that's just 10 seconds of Talos not healing at all. Without it his healing efficiency gets a significant boost. In some hard champ fights I'll also turn off his two Blaster abilities so all he does is heal. It can give you the edge you need in a close fight. One thing I did notice, actually, was no matter where I stood his Death Field always hit me. Every time. I could be in the AOE circle. I could be just outside of it. I could be 30m away (sprinted a few times as soon as the casting bar started just to check). Every time -1200 red. Not the first time I've noticed that with mobs casting Death Field. Anybody else?

Just on the off-chance you've misread the tooltip (I do it all the time) - Creeping Terror (a periodic damage ability) gets the same 30% crit damage boost that Death Field does from Creeping Death. As far as snaring a runner goes - I often combine Creeping Terror, a 2 count, and then Force Slow to great effect. On it's face I initially really disliked Creeping Terror before I started using it regularly. Now, I'd have trouble choosing to do without it. The 9 second CD is also not that long in actual play (I was initially worried about it too). Between Death Field, Discharge, the occasional single Shock for Unearthed Knowledge, Thrashing like mad, Crushing Darkness every time Raze procs, and the 1.5 sec GDC between each... well... I'm not sure I've ever once been waiting for CT to come off CD. Our time is fully occupied with plenty to do in that 9 seconds - assuming you want to use CT every time it's available (I don't, but I do use it a lot - mainly to catch people and stop people). It's also been my experience that 1 point in duplicity is sufficient to get EW to proc as much as you'll need it to. Those extra two points may be better spent elsewhere. On your 28 point Madness build I would, personally, swap Oppressing Force for Parasitism and Torment (which I hate, but I'm a biased minority) for Devour. I'd also like to put in my vote for Lightning Reflexes. 20 second Force Speed is fantastic. Re: 11/12/18 - I've been toying around with a build very similar to this for a LONG time but I haven't tried it yet. It's really tempting, but there's no way to know how effective it'll be without a solid few days of playing it out. Personally, I'd take the 2 points in Duplicity and drop them into Insulation (which I love, but again I'm a biased minority).

I haven't tested this or anything but I've had an inkling lately that I'm seeing less healing numbers pop up. Both in regard to multiple target death field and Parasite DoTs critting on multiple or even single targets. I'd also be interested to know if anyone else has noticed this as well?

Persional bias here but - Torment? I'm not sure why I see it on everyone's posted builds. Dropping 2 points into a "Buy 13 Thrashes, get the 14th free!" talent can really be better spent elsewhere regardless of PvE or PvP focus. Is that build ineffective? No. Madness I find is a bit more forgiving in regards to effectiveness in both PvE and PvP with a single build - that being said you can't have peak efficiency at both. You'll always sacrifice some effectiveness in one area for another.

Absolutely agreed. We have enough to do without throwing another GCD with a positional requirement (that often fails due to lag) in the mix.

Assassin and Marauder are heavily gear dependent. They're also two of the hardest classes to play well. Everybody is heavily gear dependent in the 50 bracket - welcome to Expertise. You'll have a bit of a harder time as a Marauder at first because you will lack the variety of ways an Assassin can change the tempo of the fight (not escape, necessarily, but re-position and re-engage - hit and run and hit and run and hit). You have to be very aware of what fights you pick and who is around you when you jump in. Do your dailies and start building up purple mods and Cent gear (but that's true for everyone). I often duo with a friend who plays a Marauder (Anni spec) and he had trouble at first but after doing a bit of research and PvP vid watching he has a blast. Good luck!

Incorrect. Death Field is it's own ability that relies on nothing else for its damage effect and healing effect beyond you positioning the reticle and and clicking. The only thing the Lightning Discharge is required for is the Raze proc. The free Crushing Darkness from Raze can be targeted on anyone, and does not require the Lightning Discharge to be applied to the target in order to cast. Lightning Discharge is not Tracer Missile. Don't try to use it like Tracer Missile. Tab Discharge Spam is amateur hour, and the quickest way to become completely ineffective. Not saying you do this, but whoever started this rumor very obviously has no idea how to play Madness spec.

Any thoughts on replacing *some* +surge with +power on the general theory that higher base damage translates into bigger crits?

I throw it on situationally: if I have enough force and am near the ball carrier in Huttball for guard; if I've acquired a few dedicated fans who've decided to hound me for the better part of a match; if the Mara I usually duo PvE/Dailies with wants to attempt an H4 with our healing companions; etc. Lightning Charge remains my bread and butter.

I use a similar build. The only time I get into trouble is when I'm not paying attention and go charging into packs, but that's true of anything not using Dark Charge. Pick your battle. Use your cooldowns effectively. Don't be afraid to strategically withdraw. Fight on your terms - PvE or PvP. I'd suggest swapping Torment for Unearthed Knowledge, however. I've also found 1 point in Dark Embrace to be helpful in getting the ball rolling up front while setting up Calculating Mind ticks for regen. EDIT: By packs, I mean 3+ silvers/golds of course. Not scrubs. Can still be done, you just can't be casual about it.

I've also been curious on thoughts regarding power vs surge (or even crit), especially giving the changes to surge coming down the pipe.

On the character screen, under the melee tab is a listing for Bonus Damage. 10% of that is... not a lot for 2 points that high in a tree. I've been waffling back and forth but I'm not sure where else I'd put those 2 points that's more useful. (For reference, this is the build I run currently)

I'm well aware, no worries. I don't try to Sorc it up with Madness. I've been straight Madness since well before the last adjustment. While Unearthed Knowledge is definitely handy, I've just been wondering lately if the 2 points are better spent elsewhere in the tree. So far my answer to that is no, but I'd love to hear opinions outside or inside the box. Gives me something to think about on my daily commute. EDIT: My original point was just to check and make sure it was actually just melee - +10% across the board would be nice though.

Tooltip says melee bonus damage (so just Thrash/Assassinate/Maul(if you use it)). Is this not the case? Because I've honestly been thinking of skipping Unearthed Knowledge but I don't think there's anything else more worthwhile to reallocate the two points. Maybe Oppressing Force, but eh.

I'm looking for some opinions here to satisfy my curiosity. 1) Are there any thoughts on how much, if any, traction we'd get out of +power? I know +crit/+surge is the go-to, it's what I stack, but I like to stretch outside the box every so often. Viewpoints as regards to all three specs would be appreciated. 2) Electric Execution: the wording on the tooltip is interesting. It's a common assumption that this talent will increase discharge, but does it? Or does it actually increase the damage of the Charge proc, not the Discharge. If it's just the proc, I'm thinking the points are better spent elsewhere.

If this is true now (I'm stoked to test it out - respec needs to be cheaper ), I'm wondering if Tumult will now work as well given that it's a similar wording insofar as the standard/weak specification.

I was actually just thinking about this dichotomy the other day, so naturally I think this is a fantastic observation. Spot on, IMO.

Of course it does, it's all situational. Those are all tools in your arsenal that you can and should employ all the time that make kiting difficult - against a Sorc or otherwise. Whether or not they have the same tools is immaterial. It's not a "done deal" simply because Sorcs (and other classes) can do things at range.

You're on the nose with that - and it's something I'm still getting into the habit of doing. Taunting helps with protection medals and your team. Anytime you see a group of people fighting it out, stealth up and run through the enemy pack and slap down the AOE Taunt. Keep Cloak or Speed handy in case you catch the edge of an AOE or somebody actually notices and is able to target you. Single target taunt I'll often throw down from behind on people healing or ranged DPSing into the mob. Every little bit helps. I still stance into Dark Charge on Huttball to guard the ball carrier (or set up for a pass) if I'm close by. Stealth regen boost from Deception (even 1 point) helps to put a dent in shifting stances to adapt to situations. Other than that it's just about adjusting to being constantly on the move in battle (aside from defending, say, a turret in Alderaan), bouncing in and out of engagements, picking off targets of opportunity. Some rounds you'll rack up the medals, others you won't. It's the nature of the beast.

This. Also... This. I'm not saying the class couldn't use some polishing or further developing, I have gripes myself, but definitely the above is right on the nose.

Creeping Terror immobilization. Force Slow. Instant Whirlwind. Force Speed. Electrocute (sparingly). Death Field. Reckless Lightning (least useful, but still I give it the benefit of the doubt situationally). Even force cloak (pair with Spike if you prefer), if used outside the box, can combat being kited. Note: the cooldowns on most of these abilities will overlap sufficiently so that you are never without at least one of them at any given time in a rotation. Between being able to stop you, slow you, confuse you for a second, still do damage at range, and catch up to you, Madness Assassins are hard to kite and we don't have Wither. No single class is able to keep me from doing damage to them for the length of my health bar due to distance which is the definition of kiting. So no, we don't all need Wither (though I'm sure it's quite handy!).