Finally, a decent answer that doesn't assume that everyone in the WZ is stupid except for the marauders I can accept that this was part of the intent, but I don't accept that it's actually working in practice Yes, Imagine!! You know that getting healed makes this possible, right? Which is entirely my point. The problem is they don't need to get low in a WZ. If you have your WZ med handy (same cooldown duration), it will heal you more than you lose as long as you're under 70% health. Rage spec even wants you to stun him during it so he gets an extra 10% health back for using Unleash (90% health breaks even). Throw a BM/WH healers HoT or instant heal into the mix and it's 100% before and after. Marauders and Sentinels are using the power in this fashion, and I'm just going to quote you here, because you described it perfectly: broken.

If you "earn" your daily three times a week, you get the Weekly for doing absolutely nothing more. Getting something for nothing makes that something, by definition, free.

Sometimes you'll get CC'd through the entire UR and not be able to do anything at all. When I say "Almost Invariably" I don't mean "every time". All the same, since 1.2 WZ and medpacks went to a 90 second cooldown though, It became more of a "your fault" issue for Maras that don't have the pack available for UR. Sure you can choose to use it some other time, but don't then cry foul because you don't have it ready when you UR. Of course, they can spec to reduce the UR cooldown too, but even with unsyncing the medpack, more UR is a "better UR" so it's kind of a trade. It's not about benefitting my argument anyway - my "argument" is pretty simple: If you can have more health at the end of UR than you had before you used it, what's the point of the 50% health cost?

Sigh, L2P again. Classy. Here, I'll simplify it for you. UR/GBTF has a 50% health cost attached to it, it seems obvious to me that this was intended to be a balancing feature for an extremely powerful defensive cooldown. In practice however, at the end of that 5 seconds, any half decent Mara/Sent has more health than he had before he bubbled up, be that independantly from a WZ pack and/or his own heals, or from an external source, or both. Now, that 50% cost is either a balancing feature, or it's not. If it's not, then why is it even there? If it is, then what's the point?

I'm not saying Marauders are OP at all, I'm saying why I think UD should have -99% healing, I ought to be able to discuss that since it's mentioned in the first post of this thread, right? It's a long way from thinking they shouldn't be able to heal during UD to thinking the whole class is overpowered. Sometimes, a healer can LOS me where he can recover and it may take me ~5-7 seconds to get back into a position where I can damage him. He may not have LOS on someone else he needs to heal, or he may be dedicating his healing to himself since he's one hit from death and/or has DoTs on him. He could pop back out at any time, it may take him longer to come out than it takes me to burn someone else down, I don't know. I can risk changing targets and maybe do more damage to them than he can heal before I chase him off again, or even specifically to draw him back out before he's fully recovered . Or I can spend the time it takes to chase him doing zero damage to anyone. Maybe he's even in a position where chasing him is certain death, or his team can and will peel my attempt to chase him, but of course I should still single-midedly dedicate all my resources to chasing him, did I get that? There is a huge gap between "leaving a healer untouched" and "chasing the healer is not the best option". Don't pretend that a Mara being healed during UD can only possibly occur because an entire team has been completely ignoring a healer who's just sitting there free-casting. Anyway, when you're done Hi-fiving each other for teaching me a real lesson in what DPS should be mindlessly doing at all costs, at all times, without ever adapting to what's actually happening, you can rush off to one of the many threads where a healer is complaining that it's unfair that he has stop free-casting to try to kite and LOS you. You can explain to him that he needs to L2P, because while you're chasing him around you're not killing anyone and he's staying alive to heal his team. Jokes on him right, because nobody would ever do damage to anyone else his team while he's in the WZ somewhere - I heard he's at snow, all 8 of us go now! To the point though, I've said why I think it should be -99% healing, and so far the best counter argument is, "If you knew how to play, that would never happen". Yeah, I'm unconvinced, guys.

Shall I queue up Yakkety-Sax while we all chase each other around, or should I assume the healer in this scenario is a spaz who stands still while I whack at him? UR is not a feature while I'm actively DPSing the healer, is it? Or is this a case of, "At all costs, drop everything and chase the healer ceaselessly until he's dead" as 100% sure-fire all situations win advice for DPS? Can I just tell the enemy team I've got an Op healer stealthed somewhere and they'll leave me alone? Please... If you want to make a point, make it reasonable. Ultimately, though - when discussing the scenario: "if a mara has a pocket healer", talking about what happens when that healer is dead (ie, when he does NOT have a pocket healer) is dodging the question. Healing someone who takes 1% damage is no different than healing someone, let's give some decent mitigation out for kicks, someone who takes 50% damage? You just said that? Why do you think good PVP healers hate people with zero expertise?

I just don't like the fact that it's tantemount to a free life if a Mara has a pocket-healer. If you want to talk like the health cost is meaningful, give up healing while you're Undying. A Mara who comes out of the 5 seconds on less health than he started with was completely alone, with basically everything else on cooldown. 50% "cost" my arse.

Doing more? More what? You do your dailies, right? Do you do them three days in a row/at least three days in a week? Weekly for free, no extra, no more, it's just done magically when you do three dailies, or it's done quicker than that if you just PVP a lot.

Where did I say they weren't? I personally think Undying should also be -99% healing, but it's not going to be the end of the world from my POV if it stays the way it is. I also don't think they needed the flat +15% damage to Ravage, but them getting it did not change much. But just because you or I don't think Mara/Sents are basically fine, doesn't mean there aren't problems, or room for improvement.

Yeah, but when you're running around you're doing full damage to every single member of his team with a 75% damage buff. When he's running his healing drops to negative eleventy!! See the difference!?!?!?

Yes. You may have missed my sarcasm though, I was trying to say that I completely ignore all claims of great skill in gaming forums, but at the same time I try not to let those claims cause me to disregard everything the claimant might say. Even crazy people are sometimes very insightful.

Look, everyone knows that the bad players pick the OP classes. It's just that this one time, one of them nearly killed me, so clearly the class needs to be nerfed. Seriously though, I completely disregard every single, "I never lose/always top every WZ" comment made on forums, we're all 6'7", 140kg cage fighters in real life anyway so what does it matter? Just last week me and Brock Lesnar were laughing about that time in PVP... Still, that doesn't mean everything else this guy has to say is meaningless, though it does seriously undermines his credibility.

Nobody could possibly have thought to have posted a thread complaining about how little free stuff they are getting before, could they. Also: THIS FREE STUFF I GET ONCE A WEEK IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!

Crouch/cover is also immune to interupts, and Evasion for them is a complete cleanse too.

Hi. I'm a sniper. I have no heals and no cleanse. In a drawn out skirmish with DoTs and AoE flying around, when I LOS my opponents my health keeps ticking down and there's nothing I can do about it. Which of us do you think is more self-sufficient ? Besides, in group PVP you should most certainly require other players to make you viable. Who do you think you are?

Actually, it's you that can't see that 1% crit is an incredibly insignificant contribution to your "killing people", and pales in comparison to the extra damage you can pump out with target aquired and rapid fire (with an extra 4% crit on SOS, no less). 1% extra crit means that about 1 time in 33 you'll get an extra crit on your "instant kill" Probe+ambush+instant snipe, doing about 20-50% less extra damage in your rotation than you'd get from just ONE extra SOS, let alone two. The other 32 times out of 33 you get nothing.

Metaldragen already nailed it pretty much, the only other habit I suggest you get into is move Shatter Shot to after the corrosives in your rotation. Shatter gives no benefit to the corrosives, and you're eating into ~6 seconds of your 9 second Trauma before you get into your cull, meaning that as soon as a healer realises there's trouble you've probably got no Trauma up. Apart from that, having the corrosives on first is beneficial because they start ticking earlier in the rotation meaning ealier Lethal Purpose energy regen.

If the Leth build includes lingering, the healer needs to cleanse 6 times just to totally remove a Corrosive grenade from a group, that takes at least 22.5 seconds and the full strength DoT only lasts 18 seconds. Cleansing once, and leaving the lingering toxins version of the corrosives can impact a Lethality Sniper's damage numbers at the end of a match, but cull hits just as hard with lingering DoTs as it does from full strength ones. At the end of the day, in 4.5 seconds I can throw a Corrosive grenade and two darts, in that time a healer who is really anal about cleansing might completely cleanse one target - leaving me another target with two DoTs, or half cleanse two - leaving me two targets with two DoTs. Someone is going to cop a full strength Cull either way, even after I pause to throw in the WB. It's easy to conclude that Lethality can be "ruined" by a hyperactive healer who's got more free GCDs than he knows what to do with, but post 1.2 it's just not practical for a healer to spam cleanse to try and counter a lingering Leth spec.

OK, this makes my brain hurt - I'm not even goign to try and convince you that having, and using Rapid Fire will make you deal more damage (what are you doing while Ambush is on cooldown with a MM build and no SoS?). I'll just try to use your own logic to help you. You already have +4% crit on SoS, that's way better than 1% crit, right? Why not use it three times in a row?

Off the top of my head, I'm getting it from what I remember from the tooltip in-game. It's not impossible that I'm wrong, but I can tell you straight up that the damge shown on the link you provided is way out of whack, that's more than Ambush.

Heh, still, you know the world has not gone completely mad when someone posts a "Nerf snipers" thread, and the overwhelming community response is "LOLWHUT?"

I can not for the life of me figure out why you would use this build, and not just go 31/8/2. If someone came to me and said I can choose between having Rapid Fire or an extra 1% crit in my build, no contest: Rapid Fire wins.

Even so - Dart -> CG -> legshot -> run to 30m, time probe+ambush to hit ~ 8 second mark-> cull -> CG (snare) -> dart -> Gap closed on foot -> Cover pulse -> make 2 seconds of space -> ambush -> Leg shot -> 30m, etc. Obviously this is oversimplified and presumes the target is slightly retarded, but you could get very close to this kind of mileage on any Melee depending on cooldowns, just apply DoTs before roots and you're golden (sniper DoTs are 18 - 30 seconds depending on Leth spec) As it is, if I get to start a fight at 30+m it takes a very good melee player blowing a few cooldowns to stand a chance against me, I find this to be fair because if the fight starts at ~4m I'm the one that has to work really hard. But if you give me an extra ~16 seconds of root/mezz in any given fight, it's a seriously busted system tipped heavily in my favour.

I'd love to agree with you, but I know I'd be OP through the roof (as a Leth sniper) if that was the case. I could land my whole set-up rotation before cover pulse root even wore off, and then still have 8 seconds of legshot up my sleeve to make distance.

Lethality can spec for a 6 seconds 30% snare, but otherwise it does not play nice with other Sniper CC. Leth is built on a DoT foundation, and needs 2 DoTs for damage and often also DoTs on multiple targets for energy regen, meaning ticks once every ~1.5 seconds will break a root or mezz. You may just be miscalculating. It's 931 + 259% of your bonus healing, so for 300 bonus healing that is: 931 + 2.59*300 = 1677 (edit: LOL maths fail, I should add 931, not 900 - it's 1708) Like I said, a PVP geared sniper in full WH with augs might end up around 250 (maybe 260) bonus healing. The deceptive effect with shield probe is that the droid stays orbiting for the full 15 seconds, even long after the absorb has been spent.