I still think a 1min cooldown on force cloak and perhaps allowing inf the ability to wipe dots before cloaking would really provide a more 'infiltration' feel to this class. Even making clairvoyant strike slightly more powerful would go a long way to giving incentive to roll one vs the power of double strike hybrid tanks. The burst is also too dependant on force potency, to mitigate these gaps some sort of debuff to negate healers or provide an armor debuff might be an option. As it stands though, infil is really quite underpowered compared to our other options!

I shouldve been clearer earlier when i said insta lift wasnt useful at all, i was referring to the situation of having no room for a hybrid shadow in the main fight - im glad to hear its working out for you btw. I can always output more dps as balance though, i bet you could too - a properly organized game with cross healing allows you to have defensive cooldowns ready most of the time to deal with the heavy moments.. in any case the FOTM healers cant wipe our force dots.. the scoundrels on my server hate me more than maras and PTs when i roll full balance.. YMMV though.. its got no real set rotation to it.. i use project as little as possible and generally try to get mind crush procs down as quickly as possible, this really gives a kick to the force regen. Sever force is really best saved for against pure tanks and CC duties.

I still lean towards the full 31 x x being the best maintank for us, with the best being a guardian (imo again), but i do concede that the 23 1 17 is still a viable option. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but on a recent poll of the best shadows on my server i was mentioned most of the time, there's not really a l2p issue here.. in fact ive explored so many aspects of this class in my time playing the game im getting extremely bored

You forgot the ability to effectively kite all melee classes without having to ever go into their range. This is the number one reason why as 31 x x i take much less damage and can provide alot better peels / protection to my healers, and the strength of having a 5% damage debuff + 30% speed reduction with the power of sentinels at the moment a no brainer, as it's up 100% of the time.

And shinarika dont forget that if you're in the mainfight as a hybrid shadow, are you just a second tank trying to be a dps? balance is what you do for that which has the insta lift anyway. The best teams on my server all run with their offtank guarding nodes the majority of the time, which is also my preferred strategy. You know what really makes balance strong though? sever force. With this dodgy *** resolve system it can be abused to hell and back especially in huttball.

I disagree. as a maintank having a constant snare on the opposition + 5% damage debuff in the main fight makes a 31 x x build better than any 'instant force lift' shadow. It can kite better, doesn't have to be in melee range to deal good damage (OR abandon their healer and run out of the 15m guard range.. stupid tunnel vision hybrid shadows are rampant on my server). So where does that leave the hybrid? on nodes. Thats why i roll 27 0 14.

The mileage i've gotten from insta lift as a tank shadow has been less than i have from in balance within ranked, believe me i also enjoy playing 23 1 17, i just really dislike being almost entirely melee dependent against the top teams (remember i'm always playing offtank and node guarding - zzzz - or playing balance dps where im always in the thick of the action). It's mostly a personal preference mind you, my team always has enough CC to go around, especially with the stupidly OP cybertech stun nades we farm My basic argument is that if you're maintanking in the 'pack' you can bring alot more to the team as a 31 x x. If you're offtank and mostly guarding points / nodes the 23 1 17 isn't that great, and huttball is only 1 out of 4 maps.

Yeah i understand, conversely there have been moments where i've capped a point so fast from opening on the guy guarding it with project --> DS DS --> procced project -> stun -> tk throw 2 stack + resilience and using the next charge of potency on force in balance = dead faster than pretty much almost a balance shadow can (27 0 14). I agree that insta lift is almost ridiculously OP in random pugs.. im really talking about ranked involving the best two teams on your server.

it's always an issue if its a 2-3 stack tk throw with potency, timed on the right squishy without guard or taunts up - It's just that the damage done in between by a hybrid will always be superior

the advantages aren't that great, id rather freecast it and not guarantee the full resolve bar. Situations where its useful? the best ranked team on my server are very quick to cleanse / pull people with the force lift. In terms of protecting a node i'd much prefer to sap them and delay via stealth. On offense it can be quite handy for attacking a node but you're better off being balance if you want to be mostly offensive and provide this (attacking a node protected by 2 people mind you, in which case you won't win either way unless theyre nubcakes). Remember, you can face any direction you wish after you've begun casting lift

^^^ this is why i dont usually use a 3 stack tk throw unless im sure theyve already expended their cooldowns or i've stunned them and they haven't got a cc breaker on cooldown. I use harnessed shadows entirely for damage playing 27 0 14, and the shadow on my ranked team who played 31 0 10 as a maintank almost always rotates ST -> project -> tk throw rinse and repeat. he can kite all day

But to get back to the main point of the thread - its basically understood that the hybrid will deal more damage in the less-than optimal environment you're playing in (especially ranked). Note that when i say hybrid im referencing both 23 1 17 and 27 0 14, especially when you throw in the PVE 15% double strike crit bonus.

^^ yeah, it's really a game of cat and mouse in a way. this game is all about getting your opponent to commit their cooldowns early, or even prevent them from using them before they can do anything (burst).

yeah understandable, seeing as i go between offtank and dps (balance) depending on the teams needs it's rarely i'll have to spec into slow time. It does actually make the double strikes a bit more useable OTOH..

Yeah boarg, the basic fact is they cant ignore any of your attacks because they're all going to do alot of dps. The rotation from a 27 0 14 will have more damage done even after you take into account its slower proccing of tk throw - if a 31 x x build wishes to take advantage of particle accel it will slow down their ability to build up harnessed stacks as double strike is largely a waste of force for them.

Indeed Astarica, thats why i think if people really want to hybrid they should retain harnessed shadows for the obvious benefits and drop the instant lift (pretty garbage in ranked wz due to the 2 second extra stun when broken early which guarantees full resolve). Get the pve shadow set bonus with 15% crit bonus to double strike and use 27 0 14. It makes awkward and buggy-lagged shadow striking basically unecessary.

Yeah order-sixty-six, the theorycrafting here is fine until you actually learn how to play each spec and start noticing that your dps in 27 0 14 is generally going to be the highest, largely from adaptability to any situation as i've explained previously - the uptime of your dps as opposed to being heavily melee based is the best with this spec, YMMV and L2p come into it - im a valor 98 shadow who has played almost 100 ranked games so i've had a chance to use them all and become proficient enough with each to effectively compare the specs Also, i'm also using the PVE stalker shells with the 15% crit chance on DS (with WH mods and BM armorings to retain the set bonus). The force you gain from saber striking actually helps in keeping the rotation going. I'd consider switching out your mystic gear for it - might i add that when you do the math on DS with the added 15% crit bonus from the pve stalker set it almost makes shadow strike with infiltration tactics procced unnecessary, the damage to force become quite similar. Shadows are really supposed to be attacking squishies if they can - other classes have superior armor penetration abilities

Thumbs up, shadows need more love around here.

For the most part a hybrid will be better against all classes, it's interesting when a hybrid fights a 31 x x build though - If the 31 guy has deflection up, he can basically nerf the hybrid from being able to do most of their damage / proc their particle accel / infiltration tactics. The flip side however, is the hybrid can wait for the 'alpha strike' of the 31 build and counter their 3 stack tk throw by vanishing or saving their resilience / stun for when it occurs. It will usually come down to who is the better player

yeah a good ranked will go on alot longer than ur typical pug, especially the civil war battle for mid! Dps's post up to a million in some games ive been a part of. Still, a 500k voidstar from 31 x x shows there isnt an enormous difference, its just more aoe based than the hybrid.

But as for offtanking, a hybrid is superior for its single target damage. A maintank must be more concerned with peeling dps off his healers and staying within the 15m guard range, and using alot of GCD's to throw guards around as needed. The above analysis of the 31 x x spec outdamaging hybrids is well and good, but in reality good teams won't stack up enough to let you maximize the damage from a 31 x x spec, it simply hasn't got the single target dps the hybrid does and therefore is inferior at attacking / defending nodes but superior in the 'main fight' where it can apply debuffs slows and protect healers. For the record, in one of the most packed voidstars ive played i managed about 500k with 31 0 10, my highest with 27 0 14 is 600 or so, i cant remember exactly. I can always do more dps with 27 0 14 compared to a hybrid as good players simply won't let you melee them to death and will stun / knockback and prevent you from getting all over them (gunslinger / snipers are great at this especially), this is where 27 0 14 with harnessed shadows is handy with its ability to do good dps at range, i can generally be dealing damage more often than with a 23 x x build which always results in higher end game damage. Plus being able to pop resilience and send down an uninterruptable 2k per tick tk throw with potency is bordering on OP.

31 is always a superior maintank, the 5% damage debuff to all targets makes the difference between your healers staying alive and dying, especially in a ranked environment. You can also kite alot more with it, rotating project and slow time into tk throw with 2 stacks you can maintain great dps while kiting melee classes effectively, something the 23 x x builds can't do.

Also in regards to force lift, i find having it on insta cast is handy but usually a bad idea to fill a healers resolve bar in an organized ranked wz, you have to sort of stun them first to 'feel out' if they have their CC breaker handy. Try this trick, cast force lift on an enemy, then do a 180 and FACE AWAY FROM them. They'll probably think you're not casting it on them but it will lift them no matter the direction you're facing - Another dislike of mine is the Guaranteed full resolve bar from the stun on insta force lift breaking early from damage.

without slow time the harnessed buildup isnt as rapid so its purely used as an offensive ability most of the time (ill often open a fight with project however) - using 3 stacks with all the cc in this game is generally a waste, i find it funny sending down a 1 harnessed tk throw and watching the opposition scramble to prevent me doing it. Besides, the 1 stack is only handy when an opponent has given you an accuracy debuff or have their defensive cooldowns up. I'm basically saying with this build you have an option to do purely force based damage or alot of melee and both ways in between - remember this is largely based around being an offtank. we all know 31 x x is the best for main tanking

@boarg, read my post again. quite often ill throw tk with only 2 stacks of harnessed, or even 1 if theyre using a defensive cooldown. the force to damage ratio on tk is very high plus the slow, you can very effectively kite maras all day