I completely agree. Enraged defense needs to be two seperate abilities. One a denfensive and another a threat drop.

Concerning raid wide utility, what if the guardian had a skill that increased the defense of everyone in the raid for a brief period of time (ie. making an ideal setup to have a sentinel AND a guardian). Obviously it would have a big cooldown, but would be a step in the right direction. Furthermore, focused defense as a defensive cooldown and a threat drop isn't working. Its expensive and honestly those two functions need to be two seperate skills.

Idk if your piercing slash idea is the answer, but I think its a step in the right direction. Some other solutions are making plasma brand work with 3 focus on sundered targets and 5 without sunder. Or have a talent that reduces the cooldown on sundering strike so it replaces strike. Then take it a step further and add other limitations to sundered targets, like master strike will root a target if sundered. These are just thoughts. I see a lack of creativity in vigilence. Its time to think out of the box when it comes the general opinion of guardian dps to make it seen as a spec worth playing. Numbers wise, we can be more competive if they reduce the plasma burn to 9 secs to avoid clipping, and add a flat 2%, 4%, 6%, crit boost to the accuracy talent (the low dps numbers I feel are a gearing issue and some just need the helping hand to see they don't need that much crit on their gear). Idk, call the skill critical accuracy?

Here's a thought. What if Plasma Brand cost 3 focus if target is sundered and 5 focus if target is not sundered?

I believe thats an option, but if a guild is to depend on guardian dps that is not focus/rage, no matter how good of a person or how nice of a guild it is, the issue at hand will be to keep the guardian and not complete content, or kick the guardian and not complete content. And I'm sure everyone logs in to be a nice person, not completing raids and losing warzones.

I'll trade in the whole class at this point. Looking to buy advanced class respec. What I will not trade is the time, content and effort put into my toons. Unstoppable is a main function of this spec, leap in, master strike without interuption while set bonus is proc. Its equal to the auto crits in the sense its a functionality of the spec, but in application its two different things, so apples and organes.

Of course its viable for endgame content, the mechanics and rotations are pretty smooth (and enjoyable which why I feel we are fighting for this spec!) But when we still significantly under damage other classes and are excluded from content because of our choice in spec, something is wrong. Btw, I mean both PVP and PVE. I've been excluded from ops and from ranked warzones because a sentinel or marauder can go in my stead. And please don't bring their utility to bare over guardian utility because there are times those groups already have their duel saber wielders and replace me for another one. The issue at hand is players should pick the class and spec they want and still be able to do the content they want.

Well, I think you just about sum it up there. Vig guardians and veng juggs are being excluded from end game content because of the lack of damage. We have the only choice at this point to respec rage/focus or not go into end game content. I'm sure my other brethern agree that we'll trade in unstoppable when you will trade in the auto crits and armor pen. Ironic when we compare our apples to your oranges....

The issue at hand isn't the playability or usefulness of the class in pve or pvp. The problem is damage numbers aren't up to snuff and this causes individuals who play guardians and juggs to be chosen over other classes based on damage numbers alone. Dire, I've watched your videos and there is no doubt at your skill as veng jugg or your pvp awareness. I respect you for this. But your videos never show the total damage compared to these other high damage classes in warzones. The arguement about skill over damage can be made or utility over damage, but whats the point when the numbers are always low and you can't go to this ranked warzone or this operation because another class vastly outdamages you?

The thing with push happens to me also. In pvp its frustrating because the cooldown is so long and you've just wasted an ability that should have worked. The idea with guardian leap sounds good to me. It would make more strategy involved when throwing roots.

I agree. This is a quality of life issue that should be addressed on Vig Guardians and Veng Juggs. It will make the dps numbers seem more consistent, maybe even begin to change the preception about us.

I play Vigilance spec. 1. Regarding other player's perception of guardian dps seems to be on an uphill battle. From release the community wanted to perceive this class as an all tank class, even though two of the trees are listed as dps trees. As the game has gone on, some people have had there opinions changed, or more likely came to a better understanding of game mechanics and advanced class structure. Unfortunately some prejudices remain. Often people will spam chat for flashpoints or operation stating they do not want a guardian or knight dps. I was recently kicked from a group finder group for a story mode false emperor because I was a guardian dps. When the idea prevails that a guardian is supposed to be a tank and a tank alone, we have a problem. 2. I for the most part find vigilance to be working and I enjoy the class. I pvp and pve often with the same build. What I see as the problem is a lack of uniqueness and lack of originality. Let me be clear, something needs to be changed to make us stand out while still remaining balanced. Most of the tree works as intended but a few skills and talents I perceive as worthless, which makes vigilance guardian builds very similar. First is the accuracy talent. I think the original intent with this skill was a through back to beta where I've read that over 100% accuracy penetrated armor, but at the release of the game this mechanic was changed. With all the accuracy available to guardians on end game gear is this talent really necessary? It seems a waste of 3 points and honestly other guardians probably take it to continue up the tree, not because it makes the spec that much better. If the developers feel vigilance needs an accuracy boost, then you need to just tie it into shien form. If the intent was some minor armor penetration for guardians then the skill needs to be changed. Gather strength, which I feel is supposed to be our burst talent, and in the rare occasion that it gets to proc its great but way too often that isn't the case. The first problem is unremitting. This is a great talent in vigilance, but works against gather strength. If I can proc a resistance to impairment moving effects then I'm also procing a resistance to my burst talent. Second problem is force leap cooldown. Force leap is a baseline mechanic for the guardian and often used as an opener. If the class the guardian is fighting counters with an ability that will proc gather strength they have now moved away from you and you moving slowly wasting the proc because the gap closer is on cooldown. Maybe force leap needs a reduced cooldown, or needs a proc reset to go with gather strength, or maybe gather strength needs a mechanic change that causes it to proc in the first place. Finally, I never see this skill proc in pve, because the tank is usually doing his job. In the rare occasion pve proc’s gather strength, a wipe follows closely behind. Focused Defense, the new skill added in 1.2, is only useful as a threat dump. It hinders focus generation that a dps needs to continue fighting. The only time I ever use it is in pick-up group flashpoints when I pull a boss off a tank. That use aside, the slight heal and the defense boost isn’t worth the focus loss. Why should the dps capabilities be limited because of an emergency situtation? Shouldn't it be the reverse where the most powerful attacks can go off when in an emergency? Finally, where are the shien stance required skills/talents? Focus has Zephyrean Slash and Visionary which require Shii-Cho form in their second tier. Defense has Lunge, Guard Stance, and Courage which require Soresu form. All Shien has is narrowed focus. (On a side note narrowed focus needs a tweaking as well. I get the whole help shien build focus idea, but honestly when are you taking a ton of aoe damage to build focus and living to use it? I see this only helping in raid and even then it’s not as glamorous either. It can stay or go, but if it stays something a little better needs to set it off.) There needs to be more skills that require shien form. Ultimately, you can skip shien and narrowed focus and still use the entire rest of the tree and this makes it not a shien form tree. What I want to see in vigilance isn’t a buff, but a change in attitude towards this class and build. What needs to be laid out are changes that make this type of guardian different in its own right, so when put in group setting for pve or pvp they see the shien form and know that build alone brings some specific thing to the table other guardian builds don’t and other classes don’t either.

Kira's reply to this same situation is great too. "Wait, Is he talking about the first time you saved Tython, or the second?"