I never said healing combos should be reverted to pre 1.2. I said TTK. I agree that crosshealing and healers with guards were far too effective pre 1.2. But barring playing against stacked premades exploting these kinds of mechanics, TTK was fairly enjoyable (relatively fast, but nowhere near what we have today). If people go back to dying in 10-20 seconds instead of 7 or less, 5 seconds of total immunity and a full fight reset per encounter would not be viewed as quite so cheesy.

I've never been a fan of the whole "Well, it's okay that we're the best 1v1 because it's a team based game and you're all support classes." You cannot achieve true balance in games with randomized WZ comps when balance is only achieved through some theoretical ideal group ratio. Balance can only be achieved when all classes possess roughly equal 1v1 potential. When all are roughly equivalent in 1v1, then that will translate to balance 8v8 as well. It is not fun for a player who chose a class based on limited info and theme to find at endgame that they are meant to hide in the back and contribute less than other classes which are not only extremely self sufficient on their own but excel when supported. Put another way----a well played marauder is death incarnate flying solo. Support him with heals and a guard, and he becomes the grim reaper. He is therefore better both as a solo asset AND a team asset than any other dps class. That is not balance, fellas. If you agree that survivability and damage should to some extent be sacrifed (one for the other) in most classes, then UR/GBTF should require a talent that sacrifices some of your massive dps (or perhaps simply a talent to allow you to do that dps while it's active).

I hate having to say this to you over and over again Xerain, but if you truly believe ranged classes can effectively kite a good melee player in a game with innumerable short CD gap closers, spammable slows, roots, stuns etc I urge you to play one at 50. Mercs literally do not have a snare. Not one. You are simply incorrect. Not even with a talent. If you're talking about the piddly slow applied by CGC (poor proc chance, procs off our wimpy auto attack) or Riddle, which requires us to stand still while channeling it (thus cannot kite or escape), it is worth nothing. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record here, but you just simply don't understand what it's like to play a merc/sorc (to a lesser extent sniper) and be forced to facetank good melee because you have too few tools to escape for any length of time (or stay in that mythical deadzone between 4 and 10 meters). For true kiting to exist, escape abilities need to be on the same or similar CDs to gap closers. They are not. Gap closers have much shorter CDs if they have them at all, and are far greater in number.

It's a decent idea, but it wouldn't fundamentally change the weaknesses of the class. Merc Pyro tree needs to be rebuilt with the same talents as PT, or at least something competitive (instead of absurd accuracy, alacrity or endurance buffs). Reliance on Unload and PS (which have cast or channel times and do wimpy damage) certainly compounds this problem, but our weaknesses go well beyond that. In order to perform our role effectively, we need an interrupt (still no earthly reason given for why we're the only AC in a game with 8 that lacks this utterly critical baseline ability), an actual escape ability or snare a la a WoW hunter or mage (perhaps a jetpack ability that launches us away to max range, or some form of leap/mobility power in the same vein) and the ability to do some burst damage without a cumbersome, cast-time reliant rotation. Insta cast power shot would help, certainly. But it's a long way from fixing us or making us on par with our dps peers.

You freely admit that at least two of the ranged classes are broken (one absurdly so), yet fail to see why that needs rebalancing? I've never said your class needs nerfs. I said it needs rebalancing. If that means bringing other dps up to your level of survivability and damage, I have no issue with that. Heck, just reverting TTK to pre 1.2 would probably be enough to make all of the FoTM Marauders dump the class again and leave those who truly enjoy it and understand how to play it. I don't claim to be a marauder expert. But I've played melee / ranged extensively, I understand the viability of both and the discrepancies between gap closers and escapes in TOR. You don't need a pie chart to understand why 5 seconds of total damage immunity and a stealth escape available every encounter should not belong to a high burst & sustained dps class in games of this kind. Tankassins fall into a similar category. They don't need incredible defensive CDs coupled with great burst damage AND stealth. This is MMO design 101 guys. From the other side of the fence, if you feel sentinels need all of these tools to survive and be viable, then why don't ranged classes enjoy true snaring/kiting/rooting/escape mechanics? They're all WoW mages except with no frost nova or blink.

For no-lifers like us, sure. For more casual or diverse gamers who do other things (in and out of TOR), it's still a long grind that until they complete, they will be useless in a WZ and not having fun. Don't you people realize what an awful business model that is in this day and age? "Hey, farm this gear and THEN you can maybe start having fun?" Most people will not pay these stupid dues just to pvp in 4 repetitive WZs against unbalanced classes. They will go play something else. GW2 seems to get that. PvP should be about player skill and coordination, not who has fewer RL commitments. Heck, pre 1.2 actually got that part right. You could perform okay in Centurion, and a BM wasn't going to rip you in half just by virtue of the gear gap. You could start enjoying the endgame pvp pretty quickly. Now you hit a brick wall you have to climb over just for any hope of having fun.

You won't get any argument out of me if you say that Tankassins are outrageous. How they've gone overlooked so long when everyone knew in beta they were overtuned is mind-boggling (Mega-dps tank... with stealth. How did that even get put up on the whiteboard:confused:). At least the marauder's surge to stardom was a perfect storm of changes (all classes rebalanced, TTK increased, expertise altered radically) that resulted in that particular class rising to the top, probably unexpectedly.

If you really enjoyed PvP for the competition, sport and fun you would not make this argument. True PvPers would prefer to hand the damn BM stuff out at 50 for free so we aren't either: A. Losing because half our team are forced to grind in garbage recruit gear or no expertise gear at all. B. Winning because the other team has the above problem, not because we outplayed them. Encouraging a gear gap in endgame pvp suggests you enjoy your gear advantage and facerolling freshies more than you enjoy the actual competition of player versus player.

There is a vast gulf of difference between the endless tide of bad players crying for nerfs because they were outplayed (these are legion) and experienced players with legitimate concerns about class balance. Just because the former exist in droves does not mean the latter do not exist at all. I agree entirely that pre-1.2 marauders and sentinels were not considered the threat they are now. I think that's partly due to expertise, partly due to the stupid new TTK and how that synergizes with your defensives, and mostly due to all other classes getting pretty badly nerfed while yours was slightly improved or remained largely the same (a distinction also enjoyed by the perpetually and mysteriously overlooked tankssins). That said, a good marauder pre 1.2 was very much a threat. You knew who they were on a given server, and you were afraid. If TTK was reverted to pre 1.2, I don't think 5 seconds of immunity and a stealth escape available every engagement would have people's pants in such a twist. However, even with TTK reverted there is still no question that your defensives are hands down better than other melee dps (and most ranged dps) that do comparable or worse burst damage.

If you posted this without a snicker then I'm willing to bet you've not actually played a merc at 50 post 1.2. The stated changes to the class are correctly recounted by you, but in fact the class took a hard, hard nerf. Tracer damage went down, but contrary to popular belief and what the original patch notes indicated, HSM damage went in the toilet too. Why? According to BW, multiple BHs were profiting from each other's heat sig stacks, increasing damage output to HSM beyond what BW wanted. In their effort to fix this, they made it so that even our OWN individual heat signature stacks don't increase HSM damage. Net result? HSM doesn't hit substantially harder than our nerfed TMs now. Their reply to all this? That post 1.2, the HSM multi-stacking problem was already in effect, and no one knew. So in essence, they based all of their 1.2 nerfs to Arsenal mercs on bugged data with damage that was hitting higher than they intended. Don't listen to theorycrafters who don't play the class. Listen to the people who play it, and are shelving their mercs in droves in disgust. This is not a "we got a little nerf, waaah" situation. Mercs have very limited burst now, the same limitations (constant turret mode, poor survivability/utility, low skill cap) and while some good players struggle to outperform the limitations of the class, those good players would double their value to a team behind the wheel of any other AC. And yes, Pyro is more mobile and much better for PvP than Arsenal. It still has very limited burst and is inferior to the other dps ACs in almost every conceivable respect.

I never said they were spammable. They are still tremendous utility in many areas of the PvP game, something other dps classes do not bring to the table (merc for example). And no, I'm not saying they have more utility than all classes (though in certain instances Predation is almost game breakingly good). I'm refuting the argument that they have none.

I've seen you post vigorously in defense of the current state of marauders a lot Xerain, and I get that you enjoy your class as is. There's nothing wrong with that. I have nothing against your class, I really don't. I'd play one myself if there weren't so many flocking to do the same. But if the only class you've played extensively at 50 is marauder or tankassin, I again strongly urge you to try out something awful like a merc, or middling like a juggernaut/ concealment op. Can they perform their role in the hands of a skilled player? Absolutely. Can they exceed their considerable limitations? Again, surely. But would that skilled player be of more value to his team behind the wheel of a tankassin or a marauder? Almost without question.

If you believe a sentinel / marauder cannot leap into a fray and unload some seriously retarded damage very quickly, then I'd direct you to the thread presently up in the PvP boards about Kicking a Dead Horse. And I agree, mercs are awful. Depressingly so. You have to remember sir, most classes in this game are in a pretty poor state right now compared to yours. If you don't feel there's a legitimate reason so many are flocking to reroll Maras/Sents, then I'd urge you to try a few more of the ACs at 50. Nerfs in general are a stupid idea, I'll grant anyone that point. But if so, then the other dps classes need to be rebalanced with tools that are on par with yours.

A well played marauder pre 1.2 was always a beast, and was always overtuned. The majority of balanced pvpers (people who've played the hell out of numerous classes at endgame) knew it already then, just like they knew Shadows and Tanksins were overtuned. But not many good players can be found in games of this kind, and bad/average marauders/sentinels kept the class from seeming off the hook, especially when healing was more effective, expertise changes hadn't come in, and TTK was considerably longer. After 1.2 with all other dps classes getting nerfs ranging from slight to game-breaking while your class got mostly slight improvements or lateral fixes, the sentinel/ marauder went from being insane in the hands of a good player to insane in the hands of an average player. Add to that TTK getting way shorter, and you have the current problem with your class. 5 Seconds of immunity and another get out of jail free card weren't as big a deal when people didn't die in ~7 seconds or less. 5 Seconds of immunity from damage when a player can be killed in 7 or less. Think about that for a second. Average players make up the bulk of these games. When the average players begin to reroll to one class en masse, you must realize that something is very wrong. I never said a real tank takes less damage than a marauder... I said they cannot reset the fight in their favor or enjoy 5 seconds of TOTAL damage immunity like you can. Under intense focus fire, a marauder/sentinel is far, far better at solo harassing a node to prevent a cap or protecting a node until respawns return than a true tank can ever be. A true tank in this game's pvp state is little more than a nuisance, left to last in the kill order and then summarily FFed to oblivion. They have zero escapes or immunity. The fallacy of "We're not OP, we're just in your face with flashy lightsabers! It just seems like we're doing all the damage!" is childish and naive. We who believe your class needs rebalancing are not all children easily distracted by pretty lights. We see the deadly sniper up on the ledge, and we do not ignore him because we are mesmerized by your presence. Classes should not/ cannot be balanced around such a silly, abstract concept of perceived visibility. I'll grant that a melee class requires defensive tools in pvp games of this kind. I will not grant that yours requires more than the other melee classes which do the same or less damage. It is a non-starter. I'm not talking about the fabled 31/31/31 spec. I'm talking about Rebuke, Force Camo and UR, something you all get (unless I'm greatly mistaken). The brief CDs and synergy between these three abilities is what makes you the current alpha predators in WZs. No other class with your level of burst damage can reset a fight as effectively or often as you guys can. It is not needed for your class to perform it's role, any more than a merc, a PT or a dps juggy needs to be able to vanish or become temporarily immune to ALL damage.

Predation and your healing debuff alone make you a must have in any competitive WZ.

Again I say... you are a pure dps class. Jump in, unload that sick burst you guys have, then die like the rest of us after we get our rotations off. Nowhere in here do I see justification for why you guys get to survive when other melee dpsers do not.

Shadows/ assassins have been outrageous since beta, everyone knew it then, they're still saying it now. BW just doesn't care. Here's hoping they don't use those same blinders on Marauders/sents. For the record, I totally agree. A tank class, with stealth (that alone is ***??)... that can also line up back to back 4-5k crits in the space of a single GCD. Parity does not exist in this game.

A. There have been countless threads detailing why heavy armor is largely meaningless in this game. TLDR is that it's about a 5% DR overall, and only applies to specific types of damage in any case. If you think 5% helps much in the current TTK environment then you've never fought a mercenary. B. So your AE insta-cast mez, channeled force choke (which does damage while CCing), snares and roots don't count as CC to you? There's a merc over here with 1 crappy 4 second electro dart on a long CD who'd like to talk with you. C. Why do you think you need push, pull or KB abilities to do your job? You are melee, your job is to stay in melee range. You already have more than enough gap closers to stay on your targets, you feel you should also have the displacement utility juggy's get as well? D. Vengeance specced juggernauts have this, it lasts for 4 seconds, and it's only effective after a charge. This has nothing to do with surviving in a chaotic melee. Some marauders die in a chaotic melee... most die eventually, after resetting the fight at least twice (force camo, UR + self heals). Do what the rest of us dpsers do-----pump out your damage then respawn. You should not be the exception to this rule as a dps class.

You're cherrypicking friend. UR alone grants near total immunity from damage on a short CD. This demands CC to counter effectively (don't get me started on kiting. Any sentinel that can't stay in melee range with the numerous slows/snares/gap closers available isn't trying hard enough). No. Other. Class. Requires that sort of preparation to deal with. Let me put it another way: Even when CC'd, your opponent still cannot damage you. You are the only class that functions in this way. A CC'd PT, Juggy, Sniper, etc can be bursted down and finished off. You cannot. When that CC ends, you are still alive and fully damage capable, meaning it yielded no advantage whatsoever. Look above at my prior post. Why do you guys need all of the best defensive CDs in the game compared to other dpsers which have the same or similar roles, the same or less dps capability, and the same or lesser mobility? You guys have more survivability when played well than a tanking class. You have mega dps, great mobility, great utility, stealth, self healing, temporary TOTAL immunity to damage... why do people need to keep repeating this? This doesn't strike you as wrong somehow? Don't you wonder why so many freshy marauders are climbing the ladder? Because of some vague forum rumor that you guys are OP? People don't reroll in pvp because of rumors, guys. They reroll because of what they experience. This is not advanced calculus.

^ Portent of doom.

I always love these "marauders are so easy to beat if you have all your CDs and escapes available" arguments. You do realize in an 8v8 WZ most classes might, you know, need to use their CCs once in awhile to kill a healer, protect a healer, prevent a cap, allow a cap, stop a ball carrier, and on and on? You really think a class is balanced that requires all other classes to save ALL their cc just to fight you (CC for ravage, CC for Rebuke or Obfuscate or kiting attempts, CC for Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force)? Do you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds? No other class demands that level of preparation and luck to be on an even footing with. No other class. Your damage is fine. Your defensives are too many in number, far too effective, and on too short a CD.

Play a juggy or PT before you try to make this argument. PTs have comparable burst to you guys, have to be right in the thick of it just like you, but they get a whopping 1 really crappy energy shield that might prolong their life under focus fire for 1 second, maybe two. How do you justify that as balance? Juggernauts also need to be in the thick of things, have considerably less dps output than you (even when dps specced) and even in their TANK spec cannot reset the fight in their favor like you guys can or enjoy total immunity from damage for 5 seconds. A dps spec juggernaut in dps gear/stance will explode in the sort of chaotic scrum you describe. Why don't they get the tools you claim to 'need' to thrive in that environment as melee? How do you justify that as balanced? Let me guess... heavy armor? Do you realize what the actual difference is between a heavy armor dpser and a medium armor one? Half a second of life? Ever wonder why you kill mercs so fast when they're in all that super duper heavy armor? It's largely meaningless in pvp. And they get nothing else to compensate for it. How do you justify that as balanced?

Contrary to popular belief, at least on my juggy, most enemies don't get out of my ravage with a slow on them, even the good ones. If they're lucky and they have something available to break my slow, they'll only eat two hits instead of the full three. But the range on this skill is much, much further than you guys let on. Skill will not allow you to terminator walk away from that third hit, I don't care if you strafe, walk through me, whatever. If you're slowed/snared/rooted and I position myself well, you're taking the whole thing. Only thing that seems to reliably prevent this is using a CD to break the slow/root, or using CC before that third hit (though for some juggys this is neutralized by unstoppable anyway). Escaping a ravage is not as effortless as people who use it try to claim.

Very true. Especially when they waste their KBs or CC on you the moment you land, then eat a whole ravage.

I much prefer Vengeance in the current state of the game, whether for single target killing power or protecting a healer. Rage is a very gimmicky one trick pony, most of their damage is splashy and on a longish cooldown for a burst class, and I simply found it boring to play (plus, you didn't see Darth Maul or Vader smash spamming the ground... use your lightsaber ffs!) Vengeance is a lot more fun imo, and a lot more viable with Soresu form for when you're guarding a healer. With the buff to ravage you can still hit like a truck in this spec, plus you gain some nice survivability tools and more single target damage to discourage persistent and pesky dpsers from harassing your healer. Vengeance remains better than Immortal for most things as well, for reasons which have been addressed already I think. Immortal hits like a wet noodle, doesn't gain that much survivability compared to the dps drop (and certainly nowhere near our lucky marauder cousins, who have better defensive CDs and damage). Yes, the Vengeance dots are a joke.