Lol we ran vanguard, tank, smash and scoundrel, and we only lost once to a double/triple smash team using this build.

Exactly, which is why I said earlier, that the game seems to be balanced around melee (credit to this idea to Jeck). It's going to be a pain in the *** trying to figure out what kind of other balancing will be required if and when Smash is nerfed. It is not as simple as people seem to think, and it certainly deserves more attention. Simply blaming everything on smash is distracting and avoids the overall balance problems this game has.

That's only if you view smash spec in a vacuum. In the bigger "class balance" discussion, which I think smash is integral to, you need to discuss the effects of nerfing or buffing one class on the overall balance of the game. Let's say we do a simple nerf of smash. In 4v4 Arenas, would you run a Commando DPS? Or a Sage DPS? Or would you continue to use the smash, or simply bring along a Guardian DPS or another Vanguard hybrid? Don't say, "maybe a full TK sage," or something like that, because that would only prove my point that some classes or trees are utter garbage atm and nerfing smash will NOT fix that problem.

No, that's not what I said in my OP and that's the opposite of what I said in at least two posts in this thread alone. There are numerous options for class balance, we don't know what the correct route is for sure. However, the hordes who claim that "nerfing smash" is the obvious solution are distracting from any discussion of the alternatives. Also, as I mentioned in other posts in this thread, we need to address the fundamental question of the role healing should play in PVP. In PVE, healing is meant to keep the raid group from wiping. Is that the desirable outcome in PVP as well? E.g., do we, or do we not want, one team to be able to wipe the other team? As it stands now, two teams of equal ability will not die against each other.

I feel you need to counter extreme bias towards one direction with extreme bias towards the other. You can't fight emotion with logic.

Well my OP wasn't directed at the more rational-minded people on the forums. It was meant to be controversial and read by the "nerf Smash but can't raelly explain how it ties into the overall balance of the game" camp.

A reasonable inference to make when the vast majority of the discussion surrounding class balance seems to be focused around "nerf smash", or satire posts like "smash needs buff b/c can't heal to full!". Most people on these forums don't see to want to discuss or complain about the other balance stuff that needs to be done.

Healing needs to be looked at = we need to think about whether healers should be able to keep up their team indefinitely (which is the current status quo), or whether healers should just be a mechanism to delay the inevitable wipe of your team. I suspect PVE has something to do with the healing in PVP (e.g., guarded healers keeping up the raid group). But whether this should be the case in PVP, I personally disagree with this but that's for the community to first realize that this doesn't have to be the case, and then decide whether they like the current PVE-style implementation of healing in a PVP setting.

I wrote my OP to be provactive and get people to consider other options. Too many people are jumping on the "nerf smash" bandwagon without giving a second thought to the bigger fundamental balance problems in this game. I promise you, nerfing smash and stopping there will not fix anything. Smash is not the problem. The overall balance of the game is messed up and unless you carefully adjust all of the pieces you're going to be left with yet the next OP classs. Someone smarter than me said this game is balanced around melee, and changing the way melee operates without careful adjustments throughout will result in serious playability issues. Healing as a whole needs to be looked at. Other DPS specs need to be looked at (DOTs?) Maybe Smash being toned down is part of those two solutions and I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is Smash being a scapegoat or the easy way out for dealing with the larger balance issues that currently exist. I don't see anyone trying to have a serious discussion about overall balance. It's just "wah nerf this nerf that" and it is extremely counterproductive and really is distracting from the real problems.

And yet you, like most other people who make these claims, can't seem to articulate exactly how they have too much survivability or why something is a joke? If they nerf healing in this game, the exact thing you are worried about, which is being healed to full while using its DCDs, will be mitigated. Voila, there's one alternate solution to the balance problem.

Right, like the dozens of NERF SMASH can't heal to full! threads are not blind, biased, and actually not even really well reasoned and are written by people crying about something they don't really understand without offering reasonable solutions to a complex balance issue? I don't recall you calling those people out, so who exactly is biased and blind? Get over yourself.

Opinions, opinions. Why oh why do people have opinions that are different than mine? I think maybe you're just not smart enough to understand the point of my thread or the reason I phrased my OP the way it was. Since you seem to be a judge on silly behavior, please try to be objective and tell me how the 1000 posts about "nerf smash b/c they can't heal to full lulzzz" are not silly, repetitive, simplistic to a fault and not even funny.

Overplayed and overdone. The vast majority of people calling for nerfs of any class do not know how to make a coherent argument and offer a solution without making personal attacks and jokes that are no longer funny, which is why not a single viable solution has yet been implemented. The very fact that people are making counter-arguments and that this thread has grown so fast with differing opinions shows how complicated this balance issue really is. Those calling for nerfs through one-liners such as this are doing a disservice to your own cause. "Heal to full!" "4 second stun!" "Make them pay!" Yeah yeah it was funny the 100th time.

I've seen a lot of knee-jerk reaction responses, people getting offended, and people just being outright silly in this thread because I posted an opinion that may differ from yours. The class balance in this game is more complicated than simply "nerfing smash and OP healer" yet our discussions on this tend to devolve into personal attacks and hyperbole. You can disagree with my ideas, but people who think things are obvious or simple, or try to simplify problems into easily digestible one-liners, tend to be obvious and simplistic-minded.

Or, what I'm actually saying is that once a Smasher is targeted, the Smasher cannot otherwise kite you or protect himself. It has no sustainable ranged DPS capability, and once he's face-tanking, he needs a pocket healer/guard to stay alive, and if he doesn't have that, then he can try to get away using his defensive CDs.

Not sure if failed to learn to read, as I never made any of the points that you try to refute in your post. I said what I said, nothing more, so no need to reply to phantom arguments.

Either: 1) Nerf scoundrel healer, making all healing overall weaker so TTK is less than it is on PTS Arenas or 2) Don't nerf healing in general, just bring other healers in line with scoundrel either through buffs to Commando and Sage healer or nerf to scoundrel, and buff other DPS classes, e.g., DOT specs or scoundrel DPS etc., so that the balance of overall DPS to HPS is shifted further in favor of DPS. This is based on my overall belief that healing in general is overpowered and a guarded healer is too hard to kill in Arenas. Last thing we want to see in Arenas is Smash simply being replaced by DPS Jugg/Guardian or 3 Vanguard/PT stacked teams. If all we do is nerf Smash, this will do nothing to address the unplayability of certain other DPS classes, and will make the game even more frustrating with less pressure on healers being strong as it is.

I would be totally fine with the smash hitting a total of 2 targets max, and the primary target for the full amount and the second for like half the amount. But then you would need corresponding balance changes throughout the game.

Dear friend, Please try to understand nuance and context. Whereas a fully stacked smash against your entire team can be avoided by careful kiting and positioning, one of the strengths of a smash spec is the specter of such a smash, which has a great "goat-herding" effect which is tactically important in getting healers out of positioning, etc.

Currently 80% are already worthless. So only the top 20% of the current 20%, or 4% of all current Smashers, would be viable? Excellent my friend.

Dear friend, Please don't play loose-goosie with your numbers. You forgot to factor in 30% AOE reduction. Also you need to have 3 stacks of singularity. Also, you need to find a target that is not bubbled and not kiting you. Also, you need to be able to reach a target that has slowed/rooted you while running around dancing to kumbaya, while you're healer is screaming for you to come back to peel for him. Thank you.

I will destroy your arguments 1 by 1: 1) OMG the AOE!!! Dear friend, the AOE will not be an issue in Arenas unless you play against a really bad team, there really is no reason why your smash should be hitting more than one person at any given time 2) OMG those defensive CDs!!! Dear friend, by definition, a Smash is a melee class, who typically receives the second most damage in the team next to the Healer, it needs these defensive CDs or it will die more often than a Sorcerer/Sage. The potential damage output of a smash is balanced by the risk that it takes by "face tanking" - tab targetting favors the target that is right in front of you, e.g., the Smash 3) OMG but other classes are melee too!!! Dear friend, those other classes have long-term stealth abilities, that fecking roll ability, among other awesome utility skills NONE of which the Smash has, ability to respec into a super strong heal or tank class. 4) OMG but what about your surge and power rating??? Dear friend, other classes are putting out 12k + single target hits. Smash will do this only against a PVE geared player. Other classes also have that 30% AOE mitigation ability which results in pitiful 3k smashes. 5) OMG but I just suck at the game and I want to be better!!!! Dear friend, this is the crux of the "nerf x" threads. You nerf Smash, well that will put either Jugg Smash or Powertech/Vanguard hybrid the next OP class. Still, nobody will play scoundrel DPS, shadow DPS or sage DPS in Arenas. 6) OMG then we should nerf healing, and buff non-Smash DPS classes/builds! Dear friend, YES! Buff those DOT builds. Buff Sage/Sorc. Also, healing needs to be looked at. Healing was and never should be intended to keep a player up indefinitely - it should just be a measure to prolong your life. Arenas should never go to the acid gas stage. The problem is, the DPS in this game is so weak that it is very hard to burn down a healer with a good tank.

Welcome back Niige! This is Mylord btw. Condescend is playing LoL. Spoke to Mumaydidi a few weeks ago who's playing some other game and he says he's done with SWTOR. Tox is on a break but she's playing with the Core guys. Jakka/Zarth are regulars on the Harbringer. Deoxdexter/Myronreducto/Xeruel are on the Harbringer. No idea what's going on with Ermac or Shiki. Coral thinks I'm like Zirkx, so consider me his replacement.

He stole his brother's trumoo and then went 9 hours straight of ranked Arenas.

Are you on an RP or PVE server? Any halfway decent Sorcerer or Gunslinger can easily top the damage charts. But that's not really the point since a lot of it is fluff damage, just like "4k smashes against 3 players who are taunting you and have that AOE debuff." The OP stated that Smasher will top the damage charts, which is a silly argument since topping damage chart is not really important in winning a game. I countered that isn't the case. And yet here we are, once again changing the topic.