[Enrage Timers]

This is my understanding, generally speaking (correct me if I am wrong)...

 

If your tank dies or you have a bad tank, your raid will most likely wipe.

If your healer dies or you have a bad healer, your raid will most likely wipe.

If your dps dies or you have a bad dps, AND there is no enrage timer, you will keep whacking away and eventually win.

If your dps dies or you have a bad dps, AND there IS an enrage timer, you will most likely wipe due to enrage.

 

IMO enrage timers seem to be a mechanism to make sure that dps is held to the same standards as tank/heal.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

#1 is irrelevant because many major damage sources bypass it and it applies the same benefit to everyone else. Juggs could be thrown in medium armor and have the soresu form armor modifier change it to equate the same overall damage mitigation (a la assassins with their light armor), but this would adversely affect the non-tank specs.

 

#2 Actually I'm not agreeing with you. Changing tank health pools to be significantly larger than the dps counterparts turns PVE (the other half of the game) into a cluster ****. It will force raid bosses to be balanced around the ability to do insanely large amounts of damage (otherwise there's no threat to the tank), which would in turn rebalance healers around being able to heal said insanely large amounts of damage, which will make them heal insanely large amounts of damage in PVP. This leads to PvP healer godmode and both sides of the game will be unable to ever be balanced without upping the modifiers on crippling/deadly throw and the sniper/slinger equivalent, increasing the necessity of having those classes around when a healer is involved, or a complete overhaul of game mechanics.

 

#3 Again, making CDs shorter means 1 of 2 things need to happen. The effect of the CD is diminished or all other tank class defensive CDs need to be brought up in line with the Juggernauts. If the effects are diminished, people will cry useless. If the other tanks have CDs to the strength of ours, we'll be back in the situation of everyone calling us useless (while we're not).

 

#4 When I played my sorcerer alt, I didn't want my AoE pushback to knock the enemy ball carrier closer to the goal. It happened once (my latency was a bit higher since I live in the US and was on a European server at the time) and it wasn't fun, believe me. As others have said, you have to anticipate and adjust.

 

#5 Tank damage balance has never been perfect in any MMO I have played. No where even close. I understand the frustration of Sin tanks doing more damage, but personally I have always held Soresu form as being the source of tank damage problems for Juggs/Guards. I would rather have a 5% damage reduction than gimp our resource generation but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches.

 

1. But that is my point, if many major damage sources bypass my armor and I don't have enough defences against them (e.g. internal damage), then I'm not very tanky. If PT tanks also face this problem, then it doesn't make it any less of a problem, in fact it's even bigger. I think one of the other posters was thinking along the correct lines when he mentioned (in the previous post) that if not armor, then shields should account for more damage prevention. Like I said, I don't care which component (defense/shield/absorb) makes me more survivable, as long as something is tweaked to increase tank survivability.

 

2. I never claimed health needs to be significantly larger than dps. Juggernaut health needs to be in line w/ sintank health, since overall we seem to have similar defence/mitigation. I've heard heavy vs. light armor arguments made to justify their higher health, but as we have established, heavy armor doesn't do much.

 

3. You are absolutely right that tweaking things will lead to balance issues, which is why it must be done carefully. It would have been wonderful if those tweaks were already in place, and being tested across the PTS...

 

4. I still stand by my claim that the problem is excerbated w/ juggernauts because we rely on push all the time to position our next charge (not just near the goal). anyway, I concede that Bioware probably doesn't have a viable solution here.

 

5. Yes we gotta roll w/ the punches. But it doesn't hurt to make our concerns known.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

This would be nice, but I'd rather the change be to shields rather than armor so they don't have to also adjust Sin tanks separately nor do BHs get an un-needed buff to survivabilty. Not all tanks wear heavy armor and not everyone that wears heavy armor is a tank.

 

 

Good point. Frankly, I don't really care how they balance it, and I also understand that balance is a very tricky thing. All I really want is for them to look at the issue, acknowledge that it is a problem, and do *something* to try and fix it. I also understand that it will inevitably lead to the buff-nerf-buff-unbuff cycle for an MMO and that may be the nature of the problem, but that is preferable to Bioware not doing anything.

 

 

Its 850 to be exact on PTS. Again, this would be nice but they'd have to be careful with it since a spammable damage shield that scaled with HP or Power could be IMBA.

 

Yep. The way it stands right now its really less and doesn't scale. But it could easily get out of hand (OP) if it scales too much, because we use it quite often. But I'm sure they could collect data and come up with the appropriate tweaks to the ability to make it more useful but not OP.

 

This one I outright disagree with. They're both too strong to have a shorter cooldown and probably not needed if shielding worked on more kinds of attacks in PvP. A change to the cooldowns is certainly not needed in PvE.

 

 

Then we will agree to disagree.

 

Tank gear itemization is poor right now and this is true of the PvP and PvE sets. I hope this gets changed in 1.2 because the set bonuses are actually nice.

 

I hope so too.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

I'll bite, fine.

 

1) The thing is every other class in heavy armor (including powertechs which people love to whine about) have to deal with the issue of armor not being as impressive as it should be. Is it poor design? Sure, but again, it's not like we're the only people being singled out.

 

2) We make up for our lower health pools in other ways. While it's unfortunate that sonic barrier doesn't scale, it's saved my *** more times than I'd like to think.

 

3) Our CDs are decent. Endure pain is a scumbag CD which works best when you have another healer, but Blade ward is fantastic. It absolutely shuts down damage from every melee class in the game and neuters non-lethality snipers and ops.

 

4) Again, we can dps just as well as any other tank spec out there if we swap mods out. Even if you pick up the war leader gear, you can optimize your gear to work in tandem with damage dealing. It's what EVERY good player in the game does, and it's a habit you should get into if you want to get the best out of your class. Invincible is a strong CD, I don't know why people give it so much hate, but it's damn good at keeping you alive as a tank.

 

5) *facepalm* You play a juggernaut not only to deal damage, but to provide defensive utility via taunts and yes, swapping forms to give people guard. I do it ALL the time, no matter what spec I am, because it helps my team. I've seen games where juggernauts do 600k+ damage, but have no guard whatsoever on their entire team, that, to me at least, means that all they want to do is tunnel damage and while I'm not saying that Marauders only tunnel damage, it's readily apparent to me that these juggernauts rolled the wrong class. They would have been better off playing marauder and providing OFFENSIVE group utility.

 

We are NOT a broken class by any stretch of the imagination. Gear and group dependent? Most certainly.

 

1. Thank you. I guess that is the gist of what I'm saying. Bioware needs to either fix something about heavy armor, or give us a bit more mitigation against damage that bypasses armor. Then maybe I will feel more tanky.

 

2. Sonic barrier scaling would help immensely. I;ve seen threads where it says that the damage blocked is about 800 hp and doesn't scale. Somehow, I don't think this defense is "working as intended". But we would need Bioware to be able to clarify that.

 

3. Saber ward and invincible are both fantastic no doubt. But 3 min is way too long to wait for them to come back up.

 

4. I've already stated my stance about this, and I know that the majority of you will disagree. But swapping out mods from the tank set or wearing dps gear instead, just points to a more fundamental problem IMO... tank gear doesn't do much, which seems like a design flaw.

 

5. Agreed, and I love the utility of my Jug, the mobility in huttball, and even just the way he plays. Please understand, unlike the OP, I am NOT going to retire my jug w/ 1.2. However I would like to see some changes made regarding the points the OP has stated.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

 

1. Irrelevant, applies to everyone.

2. The game balances tanks around having higher pve mitigation/avoidance, not significantly higher health pools. Unfortunately this isn't helpful in pvp, hence why it is recommended you use dps gear in pvp instead of actual tank gear.

3. Not bad, long.

4. Applies to any knockback in the game in the presence of lag.

5. I've seen differently, again in dps gear. See the videos that were posted.

6. His point was that Marauders have quick recovery to make them better "smash monkeys" (except they lose quick recovery so from that perspective, not really). Also his points about heavy handed in the tank spec are kind of pointless seeing as single saber mastery will now work for Soresu form, giving 6% damage to all other skills (including the ones that lose damage in heavy handed so the nerf for that is negligible with the exception being possibly smash).

 

That cover everything?

 

Thank you for taking the time to address these. I hope more people can jump in on the discussion.

 

1. Actually it is VERY relevant. I'm glad you agree that heavy armor doesnt do much. Sure a BH in heavy armor takes as much damage as me in heavy armor. Problem is that the BH is a DPS spec that will dish out tons of damage also. My immortal is a tank spec that supposedly relies on this heavy armor to protect me, which it doesn't do.

 

2. Again, seems that you are at least somewhat agreeing that the health pool is a problem. But I'm sorry, to me, using dps gear on a tank in pvp is an indication that somthing is awfully broken in tank specs (for pvp). I don't want to be a wannabe-dps. I want to feel somewhat like a tank in pvp, especially when Bioware claimed that tanks will be viable in pvp.

 

3. I called it bad because it's never there when I need it in pvp. Yes, the point is that 3 min is way too long. I think you seem to agree.

 

4. Most AoE knockbacks are on dps/heal classes that don't really seem to care *where* the person that is knocked back lands, as long as the person is away from said knockbacker (or off the platform in huttball). Applying force push in huttball, I most certainly *do* care where the person lands, because I am gonna be charging him next and he better land closer to the goal line. Seems like the lag problem is worsened in my case. Although I will concede that there doesn't seem to be much bioware can do about this.

 

5. While I respect your choice to play your tank in dps gear, I want to be able to wear tank gear that (hopefully should) increase my survivability as a tank, and have similar dps to sintanks that are in their tank gear. After all it's about balance.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

 

You are not in PvP as a tank to kill everyone. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp among tanks?

 

If you want to rack up kills and dmg, then stay spec'd in rage or veng.

 

Dude no offense, but did you even read what the OP posted? Here's the summary:

 

* Heavy armor doesnt do much

* Tank class, but similar health to other classes

* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents

* Force push has issues due to client-server differences

* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)

* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

 

NO ONE SO FAR HAS FOCUSED ON ANY OF THESE POINTS THE OP HAS MADE.

 

Add: The way you spec your jug matters a lot. Big difference in speccing for PvE and PvP.

 

So I should have to re-spec 2-3 times a day because I jump between pvp and tanking ops bosses? I wish they had told me this when I chose my class at level 1 and advanced class at level 10.

 

All things aside, I actually *LOVE* playing my juggernaut. I really do. I love the playstyle, and the utility. But I'm sure things could be done to improve all the obvious shortcomings that the op has brought up.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

Maybe you aren't getting heals because you aren't aware of where the healer(s) are in relationship to you? Or perhaps you are getting heals, but are standing in the middle of an open area, so that you can be focused? If you are folding as quickly as you say, then at least one of these two things is probably true.

 

With the exception of 2 stealthers, or other high CC classes, you should be able to hold a door/turret against 2 for...20-odd seconds or so, without help. Longer, if you're good, or outgear them both.

 

That's a long time. If no one comes to help you in that time, that's your team's fail, not yours.

 

Riôt

 

Yeah focus-fired upon is one example. I know I cant expect god-mode, but if my saber ward and invincible is down, then its hard to last 10 seconds against 4-5 people without a healer. This may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that I am doing no dps whatsoever. My sole purpose will be for example to aoe the door so they cannot put the bomb there, while my team is stuck at spawn point upstairs.

 

Although one thing I will say, I just use my columi+rakata gear these days and it seems to have improved my survival. So maybe any fix that comes may not be in the class but in gear? Just thinking out loud.

 

And oh yeah, my worst pvp experience to date has been an operative coming out of stealth, putting that spear thingy inside me (don't know the ability), stunning me, and viciously backstabbing repeatedly. That burst damage is freaking nuts... and on a tank nonetheless. Things like these make me question class balance. I dropped real quick on that one. How do I even defend when I don't see him coming, and then get burst damaged so quick? I need saber throw + charge to even begin to generate rage...

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

That's so wrong its not even funny. Watch how many tanks are in rated teams. Tanks + healers will be the foundation of every team, guard and taunt in a team that works together might even be too strong. That's why if you look in the PvP forums there are several threads asking for guard and/or taunt to be nerfed.

 

In a pre-made yep, it's great! In a PUG, even when I whisper and tell a healer that I will be guarding him, I hardly ever get any heals (no jokes!). And a non-healed juggernaut goes down almost as quickly as a non-healed anyone else, which is what my problem is. Again, it doesn't help me to hold a turret or door for some time, when I am the only one there.

 

(I mostly find myself PUGging pvp because I sneak in game time in between other things, and can't always play on a schedule).

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

The only reason to play as a tank in pvp is to be a ball carrier unless ur only doin that being a tank in pvp is retarded

 

And I was hoping Bioware was making it viable, since AFAIK they claimed that tanking would have a role in pvp.

 

But it seems that it is limited to huttball only. I would like to be able to hold that turret or door for a little while until my team gets here. But if I have lost saber ward or invincible, it's most likely not going to happen. That is the kind of roll I was hoping to play as a tank in this game.

 

But as it stands, I think you are right, and therefore making the case for the OP.

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

that's where you are a wrong... Juggernauts are the ideal ball carriers in huttball. If you need to know why, you will prove to the world that you need to l2p.

 

here is the spec you want: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzRbouRZhMRZM.1

 

the gear you want is dps gear for this spec. There is a post on the forum about this and how it works.

 

 

Fallerup, for the record, I agree w/ you here that immortal Jugs rock huttball, no question. Between intercede, charge, push, charge, countless stuns, invincible, and saber ward and endure pain, I make a great ball carrier and scorer. Whether an assassin is better or not at huttball, I honestly do not know.

 

I have also seen the link to the above immortal dps, and it is an interesting thread.

 

But what about immortal speced people like me that want to focus on tanking in pvp (the other two pvp events) (priorities: staying alive, scoring objectives, guarding teammates, disrupting enemies, and the occasional kills)? Shouldn't there be a way to be a bit more tanky besides the 2 major talents (saber ward and invincible)? Just to reiterate, I don't care much for dps, I want to be really hard to kill, and guard my teammates and disrupt my enemies.

 

It seems wrong that I should have to take dps gear when I'm a tank and want to tank in pvp. Yes, dps gear on a tank seems to work better than tank gear on a tank, because the tank gear on a tank does not noticeably increase our survivability, while the dps gear at least increases our dps. And that to me suggests that something is fundamentally wrong in this *tanking tree/class*.

[Anyone have the skill tree for juggs in 1.2?]

bumping this

[You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.]

OP I agree w/ you 100%. You took the words right outta my mouth.

 

Yes we can earn medals in pvp, and yes we can be situationally useful in pvp. But none of that changes anything that the OP has written in his first post.

 

I'm immortal specced (yes, really, because I wanted to focus on defense), and other than the 22 secs of defensive talents, I'm just as squishy as the next guy in pvp due to all the yellow damage going around. You guys can call him a QQ-er or say that we don't know how to play.... or you can objectively analyze his post and tell me where you really disagree, and why. Hopefully you will do the latter because it will be more constructive.