raaaaaaagggeeeee!!!!

This man is a like-minded visionary. Kudos sir, kudos.

How can they innovate when players jump on every game released and demand that ReCount, damage meters, rated arenas and all the other WoWisms be included?

Absolutely keeping it open. It's the most fun PvE game I've played in years.

I'm what you could call a disappointed optimist; I'd like to believe in the average MMO player, but unfortunately real world experience and evidence has proven my previous statements quite correct.

I did. I play games to have fun, and the act of raiding itself is the reward. The encounter is what's fun. If we win the fight and get the drops, bonus! Now, if this theoretical shadow priest is that inexperienced, you take him on the raid and coach him on how to get better. It works, I've done it countless times in countless MMOs, and I've never used any kind of meter or gauge or whatnot. So you telling me it's a mistake is really quite funny, because I've lived it and already proven you wrong. It just takes patience and perspective. If, after several botched attempts, things don't improve with him, THEN I would suggest that maybe he needs to practice some more on some less challenging encounters. But, being the mature adult I am, I wouldn't just kick him out as soon as some software told me his numbers weren't up to some theoretical standard.

How can you not have figured this out yet? If there's a quick 'n easy way or a hard but super fun way to obtain gear, stats, a title, a mount, ANYTHING...players will overwhelmingly take the quick and easy way. If something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused. If something CAN lead to e-peenery, it WILL lead to e-peenery. You can't trust players to make the moral, right, human choice. Sorry, but that's just incredibly naive. The only way to prevent "Recount E-peenery Abuse" is to never allow it into the game to begin with.

I'm really not; I've played pretty much every MMO ever made, even the proto ****** ones like Auto Assault (which, damnit, was actually kinda fun!). I don't remember running into much elitism in your run of the mill EQ player (we're not talking Fires of Heaven elitism here), or DAoC players for that matter. Even the sort of attitude you see in EVE Online, which is a haven for egos, isn't as petty and infantile as what you saw in WoW.

You know what I take away from that? 1- The raid met its goals (they downed whatever). 2- Without meters, you never would have known about the DPS discrepancy. 3- The Shadow Priest might have eventually chatted with you guys, asked questions, and learned how to play his class. 4- All of you might have had an actual social experience. But no. Meter, measure, kick. Label someone a "bad". Well done. I'm sure he improved because of the meter. I swear, you WoWtards are a blight on gaming.

That parsing in EQ was really not widespread. At all. The bread and butter of EQ players-things like groups in Sebilis, or Karnor's, or SOL A, or Velk's -never bothered with parsing. It was just "We need someone else. You? Sure, fine. Hop in" and the killing resumed. WoW's the game that popularized "add ons" which led millions of lazy players to think they were better than someone else because of a few DPS more. Let's keep that straight, shall we?

Oooooh COOOME OOOONNN already!!!!! You can't tell me you really believe this right?? You can't tell me you actually believe that the vast majority of people using these useless tools in WoW actually used them so they could make sure that everyone was actually playing their character! You actually believe that it wasn't MASSIVELY abused and used to enforce someone's idea of the "perfect" build, justifying group kicks because someone was 10;5 DPS off a certain expected range... Really??? Do you really think we're all that gullible???

Oh look, a paid Blizzard shill bashing yet another competing MMO on its boards.

"According to Cowen & Company analyst Doug Creutz, between 1 million and 1.5 million players are already jockeying for position in The Old Republic's servers. Creutz's estimate is based on the fact that EA now has 140 Old Republic servers online, with 77 handling US players and 63 for Europe. That figure is significantly up from the 106 servers The Old Republic had online as of Wednesday, one day after EA began inviting preorder customers into the game." http://www.statisticbrain.com/star-wars-the-old-republic-statistics/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2011/12/23/even-a-jedi-cant-keep-ea-stock-above-21-on-gaming-battlefield/: “Additionally, SWTOR has managed to generate a frenzy amongst MMORPG gamers with pre-sales numbers already nearing 1 million” That's a lot of varied evidence pointing to the approximate accuracy of the 2 million (minimum) number. I'd say even 2 million is conservative now, considering they'd managed to sell half that before the game had even launched. Can we get on with ignoring you now?

Well, in response to this and to your thread's title; PvEers who think they're PvPers.

Werll, why wouldn't they blame PvPers? Go look at the General forums. No one there is complaining that Sorcerers do more damage than Shadows, or that Guardians suck compared to Smugglers. If PvP-related changes bork a class for someone who was fine with it while running missions, I think they're 100% entitled to give PvPers the finger.

Yep, betas always manage to identify every single bug and glitch in the game. Always. That's aided by all the people in the betas faithfully submitting bug reports. I mean...it's not like people take up valuable beta slots just so they can play the game early, right? It's not like these same people don't submit bug reports right? nah...

Marry me. No but seriously; it's my core message. I'm hoping someone someday gets up the rocks to say "This will be an awesome adventure-filled new MMO, and 100% PvP free! Not even a separate ruleset server. Nothing. Nada. Don't even ask."

That really, really is all. Ok ok, I'll just add this; harcore PvPers kill the enemy on sight. So who are all these people trading cap points?

Please, do cancel. All of you. That way we won't have anymore of these I'm-throwing-a-fit-and-stamping-my-feet-and-I'm-REALL-REALLY-quitting-this-time-Bioware-I-mean-it threads.

Nice try, but it's not marketed as "PvE/PvP" which would seem to indicate a 50-50 split. It's marketed as "PvE with PvP", which is exactly what Bioware delivered; a solid PvE game with an additional PvP component for those who want PvP as well.

No; the point of business is to produce a product or service, and hope that what you've produced is good enough to generate sales. If it does, you're doing something right. Bioware promised a story-driven MMO with epic plotlines that allowed you to live out your inner Star Wars nerdian fantasies. "And oh yeah, there will be PvP too, and we really think you're going to like it!" Kindly take up my challenge; go through all the marketing and information on this, the official SWTOR site, and dig up all the info you can about PvP. If you find one fifth- that's 20 per cent -of the amount of info as there is devoted to PvE, I'll be extremely surprised. This was never, ever intended to be a PvP-centric game. Face it; what you expected and what Bioware advertised don't match. Whose fault is that, exactly?

Ok, let me just say this, and then I'll be done with you. First of all, you used the term "fanboy" during your discussion. You're an idiot. Not as big an idiot as if you'd spelled it "fanboi" but still...an idiot. Second of all, your opinion isn't indisputable fact (hence why using the term "fanboy" makes you an idiot). Third of all, you display an astounding lack of knowledge regarding the decline of other games. AION failed in the west because it's far, far too grind oriented for western audiences. Koreans lovew it just fine, though, and are making a ton of cash for NCSoft. Warhammer online failed because of Mythic's woeful response time to extremely glaring class balance issues (Bright Wizard AOE spam for example) and botched server merges. Neither of these problems are facing the SWTOR dev team. Fourth of all, the game's population is actually increasing. There are more people playing in prime time right now on Darth Malak- a PvP server -than there were in the "frenzy days" after launch on the 20th. The game's not weakening; it's growing. Lastly, you're an idiot.

"An epic adventure awaits you! Play Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ and be the hero of your own Star Wars™ saga in a story-driven massively-multiplayer online game from BioWare and LucasArts." That quote is taken from the game overview on this very site. You're full of it. This game is PVE first, PvP second. Not an afterthought, just not the focus of development. Deal with your unrealistic expectations now.

Clearly you've never played Everquest. Yet another WoWtard. It's so very sad.

Ok, now I'm pissed off. Listen here; the customer may expect bang for his buck, but the customer is also responsible for knowing what the BLEEP he is getting himself into!!!! The customer is NOT always right. That's some lame American conceit. If you march into my French bistro and demand Thai cuisine, I will happily tell you to go cork yourself. It's not up to ME to cater to YOUR stupid desires! I offer a product (French cuisine) and you decide if you want it. You are NOT entitled to order me to redesign my menu around your tastes. Who the hell do you think you are? Bioware made a PVE STORY-DRIVEN game which ALSO offers PVP. Is that what you want? No? You want a finely-honed, competitive, e-sports level entry in Player versus Player gaming? You want stats tracking, trophies, achievments, razor perfect balance and flawless technical performance? Up yours. You were never promised that by Bioware. No. Don;t tell me you were, because you weren't. Find me the evidence that Bioware promised this as a PvP game first and foremost "....and if you want to, you can go live an adventure in the Star Wars universe, too. You know...if you're not into PvP that is...". Go ahead. I dare you. If the PvE story-driven game ain't for you, then live with the foibles in the PvP game until they get them straightened out. But stop pretending you've been screwed somehow, you petulant little child.