ubermouth
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Posts posted by ubermouth
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this isnt about dps pulling first
i never claimed to be a super skilled dps. i guess i'm elitist if i expect people to demonstrate a semblance of skill related to organizing pulls, and paying attention when navigating.
i've cleared all hm ops/fp as every role- which is barely an accomplishment in this game ( -made for dumb dumbs).
i love tanking. but as a dps, i *********** hate poopy tanks who feel entitled simply because someone said tanks are the leaders or because they think that content can't be cleared w/o them - which is patently untrue for hm fp.
tanks aren't the leader by default. they should be booted just as quickly as an annoying dps who isn't pulling his weight.
the leader is the smartest player in the group, not the meat sheild with a hero complex
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So many weird replies in this thread. I have tanked, dpsed and healed my way up and through level 50 HM flashpoints.
Here is a question for many of you, have you ever actually LOOKED at the difficulty of these pulls in flashpoints? They are a joke... around the difficulty of a Heroic 2 most of the time. I will pull groups as a dps (sniper) because they are weak enough to be soloed. There is zero reason to sit and form a strategy for trash in this game and things like crowd control are overkill.
As a tank, I simply do not let the dps pull before me. My group does not spend the flashpoint waiting on me, they spend the flashpoint trying to keep up with me. I will pull and start to pull the next group before the first is completely killed... How can I do this?, because flashpoints are a joke in terms of difficulty.
You guys all overhype how difficult flashpoints are in this game. No CC or strategy required (generally)... aoe everything and finish the FP and get out.
i heart you
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Keeping with your original scenario, did you say anything about why you were pulling first, did you tell the group that doing so would be beneficial to the group? Or did you pull first and explain after the tank got cranky?
i never said i was pulling first, did i? nor did i advocate stupid dps throwing things into chaos.
i'm talking about tanks that think that they are the only people in the group that can make decisions about positioning, timing etc.
honestly, this game is so easy, that as a tank, i could give a crap if someone pulls first. if you're with a decent group, you should be able to handle any trash pull.
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Now, I'm a pretty good tank. I wouldn't say Primadonna... Elitist a** hole maybe... Well OK... Sometimes.
But I operate within reason. I generally don't blame DPS for crap (definitely not the healers). If it's accidental.... Got it. No harm no foul. I can handle the results. If I'm heading in to pull and a saber goes flying by my head.... Yeah, no big deal. Its not like he's gonna be able to hold threat against me, and the run was probably moving pretty quick so his little DPS E-peen was all happy.... Whatever.
Now if he's just being stupid and dive bombing whole packs while people are healing / typing / gathering, etc.....then I'm gonna ride it out... Pop my CD's.... Be the last one standing... Force Cloak..... Rez everyone but the moron....then tell the healer, " please do not rez him, idiots get the privilege of running back". Elitist a**hole comments ensue.... Followed by /nerdrage, /ragequit..... We three man the rest.... Everyone else has a great time. Life moves on.
Do tanks get a superiority complex? Yes they do. It's because about 75-80% of the responsibility for a successful run falls on the tank. The overwhelming mass majority of complaints I see from groups where they blame the heals or DPS, they SHOULD be blaming the tank . In my opinion it is NOT cliche to blame the tank for a bad run. It's usually well deserved. And believe me.... There are WAY too many fail tanks out there.
thank you.
bu there are usually never pug tanks that admit they have tunnel vision, turn their back on their healers, position poorly or move excruciatingly slow for no tactical advantage etc. most tanks pug tanks are average to below-average in terms of efficiency. however, most pug tanks have an above average sense of importance that is not justifiable based off of demonstrated skill.
the problem is is that a lot of tanks don't play for skill/efficiency, as they don't find technical play fun, but rather they play because they fancy themselves heroes.
honestly, with an group of semi-skilled players, you can do most hm fp w/o a tank.
which indicates that it's factors like position, timing, and intelligence, and not simply the presence of a meat-shield that accounts for successful runs where everyone isn't super over-geared.
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Please include a groupfinder toggle option for "skipping conversations" in flashpoints. Pairs you with other members willing to skip conversations. Develop work-arounds for conversations that impact objectives. I do a fair bit of leveling in flashpoints and can't bear the conversations after a millionth time and don't feel cool pressuring people into space-barring.
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Having played most MMO's since UO, I can wholeheartedly say that the most whiney, intolerant, primadonna group are DPS.
In any MMO.
Period.
They inevitably blame the tanks and or healers for everything, including bad pulls that they themselves initiated, either by sheer stupidity or by accident. They even whine when the pace of the group is too fast or too slow. I know that everyone one here has seen tanks and healers drop from a group because of one or more DPS monkeys being verbally abusive and childish.
Why do people keep introducing different scenarios? I'm talking about the scenario with the meglo-maniac, undewhelming tank + everyone else is normal- scenario.
It's becoming cliche to blame dps and make heals and tanks the martyrs.
Haven't we all played every role already? What's with the bias?
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I´ll lead my group if needed. Happens a few times in Lost Island when someone say they´re there for the first time. But that makes it even more important to be patient as dps and let me pull. With new dps i might even set targets. As long as people follow orders (If they want me to lead they better) i have no problem with leading a group.
Honestly i find it more fun to lead a good group of inexperienced guys in Lost Island than just plowing through the FP with a group that´s both overgeared and know the FP by heart. I dont even mind wiping as long as i see progress.
Basicly if your new to a FP let me know and follow orders. Dont press **** you dont know what is (cannon"boss" in kaon)
It´s realy quite basic. Let tank pull, dont aoe near cc, reaply your cc if needed, let tank break cc, kill lowhp mobs first, use your interupts, dont stand in bad sh*t, keep an eye out for pats and cc or move accordingly if needed.
If you do most of this i´m good. The only real dealbreaker is if you consistently "ninjapulls" I hate ninjapulls allmost worse than ninjarolls.
you're right about the rinse-wash cycle.
regarding ninja pulling. i'm talking about influencing mob position/organization when its for the good of the group, but your tank doesn't see why. i'm not talking about an annoying dps who just wants to saber throw first.
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My shoulder is here for you to cry on if you want it
a convo about scenarios supporting role flexibility is of no interest to you.
thanks for your contribution.
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Of course, there's the opposite argument. I queued as a tank because I wanted to help make the hard mode pop. Now I have to be the one to manage everything to make sure it goes as smooth as possible, and you, mr. "I'm so awesome" DPS, decides he wants to do things like pull before me or not use a proper kill order.
Well, here are the consequences... either I have to work ten times harder, in a role that is harder to find in the first place, because you're an inconsiderate bleep that doesn't know how to properly play your role. OR, I can try to let you die, but have to have the healer on the same page as me, or I'm just making the healer's job harder.
How about you stop being a bad DPS? Is that so much to ask?
A bad tank is a tank that doesn't understand the fights, can't hold single target aggro, can't approach a pull properly... you being a crappy DPS and pulling before the tank, or tunneling elites before normals/strongs, says nothing about the skill of the tank.
I completely agree that a dim-witted dps can be a nuisance.
But, the scenario I mentioned doesn't include this kind of dps.
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I've seen a ton of tanks get angry on principle. Rather than really assessing how the run is going, or the extent to which other group members are picking up the slack, they whine about how they're the tank etc.
I understand that there needs to be group cohesion and everyone needs to work towards a basic plan, otherwise things get all chaotic. I also understand that a good tank leaves little slack for other players to pick up.
However, it seems like 80% of the tanks on hm fp take themselves very seriously yet they don't even recognize that they are leaving a lot of loose mobs. So i guess what I'm saying is there are a lot of poopy tanks out there.
My job is to work to benefit my group. Not to simply follow a whiny, sub par tank simply because they had the ability to get to level 10 and pick an advanced class.
I'm just proposing that a good leader is not self-appointed ex I'm the leader because I'm the tank. A good leader also recognizes the skill of the group and adjusts accordingly.
For daily hm fp, with a decentlly skilled group, you don't even need a tank. People don't often do that though because it's challenging.
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vent:
so many cry-baby tanks out there with power-boners and very little situational awareness.
it seems like they play just so they can pull first, soak up heals, and yank from dps, etc
leadership should not be class-based, but rather, skill-based.
learn about positioing, get over rigid class roles, and stop cookie cutter ********.
also, **** gear. gear may make things faster, easier, but you can't gear skill!
end vent.
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Causes? Really? You expect to be able to explain causal relationships? With a survey? at best you will only be able to summarize a bunch of peoples perceptions about griefing. Vast difference between that and a true casual analysis.
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It's not that you shouldn't share information but information sharing is really a crutch. The WZs just aren't very complicated. This isn't like pro football or Starcraft 2 where if the enemy executed the XYZ move you must let everyone know it immediately because it hard counters your chosen strategy. There are almost no hard counters to the standard openings so victory still boils down to whether your side can kill the other side better than they can kill you.
Let's take Alderaan which is probably the most opening-dependent map in the game (capping 2 turrets often seals the game immediately). Suppose my side opens with a 2/6/0 standard opening, and your side has a spy so you know for sure this is what we're doing. You'll probably pick something like 3/4/1 which is an ideal counter formed with perfect knowledge. So if communication is key, there must be something I should say when I saw that you're going 3/4/1, right? Not really. In this game, the guys going to middle will see a bunch of red guys (7 to be exact) and 3 of them turn right. The guys in the middle will also see the 3/4 split before the 2 guys running the natural see it.
So what can they possibly say to each other? The side of 2 cannot ask for help, because the help would see the attack before the 2 does. The side of 6 can say, '3 guys going your way', but what good does that do? Does the two now use their extra awesomeness to fight 2 on 3? No what happens in this case is either you trust the two guys will turn their awesomeness on and hold 2on3 (bad idea usually), or the person who is most ahead on the main 6 hops on the ramp to jump down to help the 2. He doesn't need to say, "Hey guys I'm here to help you". It's just something he should do because you can't expect to win a 2on3 against equal opponents.
Now in a PUG what usually happens is the 3 overpowers the 2, the 6 in middle takes middle eventually but now the enemy has 2 side turrets, and the 6 guys in the middle complains about the two guys fighting the 3 didn't call for help, despite the fact that those 6 guys must have seen those 3 attackers before the 2 on the side did. Rather than realizing they were stupid for not seeing 3 guys veer off to the right from the main attack the moment the game started, it's easier to blame on lack of voice, even though it'd have made no difference whatsoever.
It's not a crutch, its a tool that has a value relative to its user and the scenario. You say it has no value, and I guess you are saying it doesn't need to be in the game. I'm saying that it may benefit newb/noob players, and by extension your team. By your logic, someone trained in both gun fighting and knife fighting should only carry one or the other lest they be crutch'd. You can be a master at both, yet still utilize both. Not mutually exclusive.
Admitting to the utility of communication does not have to reflect on your own skills: the inherent content of many posts in this thread. The central prompt isn't "convince us all how awesome you are by telling us how you don't need text/voice chat." the prompt is to determine whether in a team setting, text chat has utility and why.
Personally, the 90 % content of my vchat (if im even using it) is usually not about the match. However, if I'm guarding a node, and three come at me from 50 meters out, I'm gonna cover my bases and call inc, regardless of whether or not it contributes to the overall dumbification or crutchification or imperfectation of my teammates.
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Nowhere didI say vchat or text chat was a magic bullet. Plase don't twist my argument to further your own.
I merely said that it is often a useful tool in addition to all the very basic gameplay tactics you and H listed. But thank you for your treatise.
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Lol, not only are you struggling to respond to what I've said, rather than to what you think I've said, but your scenarios are overly simplistic.
Perhaps it's 7 v 8. It's been a 6v6 stalemate at mid for nearly three minutes. At some point it's 5v6 at mid. Our sixth guy gets off bike and jumps back to mid seeing its still contended. But, one of the two enemy defenders from their natural decides to meet up with the respawned seventh from mid to go for our natural ie 1v2.
Your logic is saying that in this seemingly static situation, there would be no utility for a "2 inc grass?"
Guess that explains why stalemated mids often lead to capped naturals.
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As a fresh 50 with full recruit gear... Pvp is still depressing. I really enjoyed pvp while leveling... But at 50 i did not enjoy going in and not even be able to put a dint in the opposition. Being facerolle in pvp because everyone out gears you is not fun and just a turnoff.
Pvp should be about skill... Having pvp gear that mitigates player dmg etc destroys that concept. As a fresh 50 im not expecting to faceroll people but a fair fight would be nice.
Honestly, get three pieces of BM gear, throw in half decent skills, and you" ll be able to start moving up in the ranks.
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Your list of basic skills/ approaches is reasonable. However, your list isn't evidence of why text/voice comm is not valuable outside of outlier scenarios of misinformation. Additionally, it may be a crutch for some, and not for others. Do I feel I can coordinate more quickly when I'm in communication, yes, do I fundamentally need it to respond to the ebb and flow of the match, no.
Again, communication is helpful in scenarios when you aren't eagle eying spawn points; additionally, I can't rely on a pug team to make peremptory movements, so I'd feel a little better if they had a little help through open communication.
Finally, I never even mentioned vchat. I said that a well timed inc call in text chat can be useful to some players.
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If you need someone to tell you which node needs help you have very little situational awareness. A lot of the players that run in premades are pretty bad when they are on their own.
Premades can definitely be fun and they can make many things easier, but if you need a full group to pvp, chances are you aren't as good as you think you are.
Funny how there is so much jargon being thrown around in here. Funny how everyone in here considers themselves a master tactician. Typically, self professed masters, arent.
Let's consider this guy's statement about situational awareness. Rather than giving an example how NOT calling incs is generally better than not, which would be more useful to all of us, he takes the time to make a comment where we are supposed to infer that HE has situational awareness.
Just Let's say I'm at grass with one teammate, and mini shows three teammates at mid, and three at east. How am I to divine, from where I am, how many enemy are at either mid or snow? Without eyes on the enemy, direct or remote through inc calling, the best I can do is look at the mini, and see if both of my teammate groups around mid and snow are running around; which only tells me that it is likely that they are in battle; it tells me nothing of numbers or pressure. With no eyes, or inc calls, I won't know about numbers or pressure until I'm running past/into mid. The same phenomenon applies to Novaro as well, it's actually more difficult there because running past mid is not requisite for getting to NE NW. This ambiguity contributes to the seemingly idiotic decision for a group of five players to run around like headless chickens, going from node to node, one step behind the enemy.
Calling inc cant hurt, unless it is abused, or unreliable information. Information is a resource for organization, its why peope use vchat. Any tactician should know that.
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lol
1. i didn't mention vchat as being a huge advantage
2. yet again you're speaking (counting scenario) of situations where you have eyes on the enemy.
3. although i can, along with any half decent player, cross reference ops bars and mini maps to identify which node has the most pressure, i'd still be ok with a some supplementary/expeditious info such as "4 w".
additionally, denigrating others, or touting yoursself as bomb is not only transparent, but trite.
any decent player can move around w/o being told, use healthbars/mini map etc.
it still doesn't mean inc calls are worthless. and it doesn't mean that you can't support tools that may benefit less skilled players. you're basically just stroking yourself by saying, "i don't need tools"
posts that focus on people's weaknesses contribute very little, and rarely amount to much beyond the self-masturbatory rantings of an unloved child.
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The point I was making wasn't that you shouldn't call incoming.
My point was that many cases you can see that you are out of position based on the number of enemies and friendlies around you (that is assuming that you still have 6-8 enemies participating against your 8, sometimes 8 imps will sit on snow and 'protect' the only point they hold). You have to be able to count to 8. Simple math tells you that there are 5 enemies somewhere else if all you see is 3 at the point you are at. Simple math also tells you that there is only one team mate at 'the other point' when you do a quick head count around you and find 7 green names. The resulting numbers "5" and "1" are the enemy to friendly ratio elsewhere on the map. This is a situation where a positional shift by 3 to 5 of your teammates should be made prior to any "Inc grass 5" call is made. Because 5 enemies are likely to take out your 1 faster than he can type it and probably faster than you can notice and process it.
still, your ability to do simple math is dependent on having eyes on the enemy. there are often situations where you don't have eyes on the enemy. the meat of this issue isn't about scenarios where a decent player can survey the field and see the enemy. you're right, that's basic deduction. the utility of calling ics is for situations where you are wary about induction.
additionally, and understandably, there is a lot subjective perspective going on in here. i may be able to see the enemy at mid, and assess that a inc call for west is either priority/non priority, but i'd still want my teammates who can't see to be able to make a more informed decision about how to move.
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Admittedly, much of pvp is situational. But, aren't there patterns/themes as well?
examples:
You and a teammate clear out/cap an enemy node, within a minute 5/8 of your team is there.
It's a stalemate at mid, you and a teammate duck out and 2v2 snow to win the cap.
Your team's got NW, but just lost NW, so you and a teammate duck out and take south, but no reinforcements come.
I'm wondering what themes you guys have seen?
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If you need someone to tell you which node needs help you have very little situational awareness. A lot of the players that run in premades are pretty bad when they are on their own.
Premades can definitely be fun and they can make many things easier, but if you need a full group to pvp, chances are you aren't as good as you think you are.
Funny how there is so much jargon being thrown around in here. Funny how everyone in here considers themselves a master tactician. Typically, self professed masters, arent.
Let's consider this guy's statement about situational awareness. Rather than giving an example how NOT calling incs is generally better than not, which would be more useful to all of us, he takes the time to make a comment where we are supposed to infer that HE has situational awareness.
Just Let's say I'm at grass with one teammate, and mini shows three teammates at mid, and three at east. How am I to divine, from where I am, how many enemy are at either mid or snow? Without eyes on the enemy, direct or remote through inc calling, the best I can do is look at the mini, and see if both of my teammate groups around mid and snow are running around; which only tells me that it is likely that they are in battle; it tells me nothing of numbers or pressure. With no eyes, or inc calls, I won't know about numbers or pressure until I'm running past/into mid. It's even more challenging in Novare coast, as it isn't a linear map, like civil war. meaning, you can't really evaluate other nodes based off of eyes on the node you're running past/at. This ambiguity contributes to the often times poor decision for a group of five players to run around like headless chickens, going from node to node, one step behind the enemy.
Calling inc cant hurt, unless it is abused, or unreliable information. Information is a resource for organization, its why peope use vchat. Any tactician should know that.
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Factionless monster that roams around planets eating sith and Jedi to absorb their powers for temporary use.
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Last night at 9:00 PM east there wehere 300 and wz wait was around 4 min sometimes less on the Empire side
Wow. That just made my day.
ETIQUETTE - a guide to group behaviour and etiquette in flashpoints and OPs
in Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
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also, pay attention when you are navigating so you don't pull like an ***.
pay attention to whether the group wants to full clear or not.
pay attention and don't let the convo timer run out.
pay attention or let us know that your intention is to not pay attention