@ Kitru Hoho, that was long : D You mentioned, that I don't even have a Shadow, so my Shadows name is "DNA" in the pvp server "Tomb of Freedon Nadd" My legacy name is "Orbit" you can take a look to my other characters , ) Please take a look at my post what I wrote 2 posts befor yours, there I mentioning my build and you will see, that if you use focus with that build, it gives you better DPS even if you on combat techniques. And even with this build knights/warriors out dps me, even if shadow is a 4-10m pure close combat melee AC "I focused on put 22 points to Kinetic combat, till "Harmessed Shadows" for a little self heal and my other goal was to use spinning kicks out of stealth by "stasis". Then I use balance tree till adjudication to have +50% crit dmg from double strike, what I use a lot for "Particle Acceleration" for crit project what I combinate with "Force Potency" when "Harmessed Shadows" has 3 stacks (so project first, till its insta with critic + 50% + 50% from upheaval(if I have luck, )) then TT till its uninterruptible with 3 stack." By the way, I will give another try to "Infiltration" tree, even if I don't have illusions, but From the posts of "Doomsdaycomes" I I feel like to have some fun with stealth , ) but as stubborn power-gamer I'm afraid, that it will lead to the same opinion like I have for now, but I'm optimist , ) "Do you have lvl 50 in every AC?" No I have not, I leveled up some classes just for the legacy buff, but not all AC's but I'm close to it , ) Any way, I played with them enough to see, what they are able to do and what not. What tools they have. coz thats the point of this thread mate, we can argue about special skills and there cdmg outcome, AC, DPS, some nefs, some uprades, but I'm interested, that what tool this classes, advanced classes have and what not what they maybe should for balance. Can they make distance? Can they ignore distance? Can they resist or be immune to CC or to DMG ? Do they have to stand still till they are using there "tools" or they can be mobile? What tools they have to survive when they are outnumbered, out play? Is there dmg in numbers can handle the opponents resistance, immune and survive tools? Is there resistance, immune and survive tools can handle the opponents dmg in numbers?.......... So if you played all classes, not all till 50 but you was playing with all, and you meet them in WZ as well of course, you should be agree with me, that Sage is a healing statue and a bad dps (now I don't care about what ranking points shows, they are just points and imo the system is broken, what leads to point farming not wise game play) And Shadow is a fansy class with good looking saber, who is good for one thing, at the moment, to bring and guard some dmg till he dies - for sure... The Shadow class has incredible exiting tools, like HIPS, ohs, it seems the story is over : P And good skill tree on paper, but here tools are broken, the other half of it is missing to make it a viable (you HIPS for a shadow attack vs 7000 AC 30% defense and 35% shield rate (and then no one used here spec shielding , ) come on... ..like scoundrel has HIPS for heal up or "Flechette Round" with BB or for SF even for a KO (lest don't compare it to shadow strike , )) And I don't even speak about operative - HIPS - dmg - HIPS - dmg....... compared it with Shadow , ) By the way, thanks for your long text, I appreciate that you took time for it, there are a lots of interesting opinions!

Thanks so much for the Shadow rotation tip : ) I will log out and try it as soon as posible. But I will have to change skill tree.. I use hide quite rarely, till I focused on put 22 points to Kinetic combat, till "Harmessed Shadows" for a little self heal and my other goal was to use spinning kicks out of stealth by "stasis". Then I use balance tree till adjudication to have +50% crit dmg from double strike, what I use a lot for "Particle Acceleration" for crit project what I combinate with "Force Potency" when "Harmessed Shadows" has 3 stacks (so project first, till its insta with critic + 50% + 50% from upheaval(if I have luck, )) then TT till its uninterruptible with 3 stack. So how you see, its a quite well build rotation, but I'm still lacking vs the most class, if they have god gear and know what they do (thats way I made the thread) I will try now to move to Infiltration, maybe this time it will change my opinion about the tree , ) Sage aoe heal can be interrupt very lightly, till everyone knows the starting animation , ) and after the 5. sec of the fights you have the healer sign in your char so everyone cap you out if you just step to the field : / Channeling skills good if you can stay in the background what is quite impossible with that sign on you , ) By the way, my main chars now - 50 Sage, 50 Shadow, 50 Scoundrel - I gathering commendation for them + I have all republic advanced classes, but no way to gather commendation for them as well , ) Scoundrel is a beast! My Vanguard is an EGO polish char, logging in 2 times a week for a few wz making unbelievable lot of dmg + medals from guard to grab the votes : p Very effective char but not my main (I'm not that soldier kind when RP-inside fantasy, story line, but I made it to get the legacy 5% endurance bonus) But he is one of my strongest character in my eyes with its tools. Guardian and Sent are the most powerful in rep side and how I see in Imp as well, but I have them just for legacy bonus as well, I still dodged the class to start gather commendation for them, coz I always qq against them in my self till wz and to bring one of them out like my main would be "to lose the game" in my eyes : ) To join the power is always an easy move and with the background story of our game it would be even ironic , )

Incredibly creative, Gratz! And thanks for your epic opinion about the issue! Any way, I saved you from this day's "waiting for my man" so both of us happy now! Keep up the trolling! The game will shine thanks to you , )

I absolutely agree with you about the commando class! It had a way to big nerf in 1.1 or 1.2 I don't remember. I'm totally stopped playing that class. Sage bubble - its 1500 absorption general, if you max your healing bonus by power + force power + will power, it can go up to 2000... vs 4000- 9000 critics to your 17000 hp (if you max healing bonus you will have that amount of HP in the end) "Sages are incredible healers" - true, but they are just healer that time and a statue! after 200 wz its getting boring (you fell no action, but you start to have a fell, that you are a slave who keep the action and the fun for the team) "Kinetic Collapse" is epic I agree but some times it won't work, coz of bug or immunity I never know, but then you should spend 17 points on telekinetics skill tree, and how you mentioned, Sage is good healer, but bad DPS so so its not the best deal for a good build , ) "Rescue" - first you should stay alive and not be CC in the goal line, what is more hard then jump there with 30% movement speed after landing with 7000+ AC (Charge/Jet Speed) or with a "guarde by the force" in your pocket , ) But lets don't roll a class coz of Hutt Ball , ) Shadow is the best pvp class coz of stealth? Please tell me an example when he has a great advantage from it (in addition to restart battle in open pvp map) I'm listening you with respect in this issue : ) (not ironic, I'm truly interested: )) Operative have advantage from stealth, but not shadow in my eyes.

Yea, thats really bad dude : ( Its the worst thing what we can imagine connected to SWTOR! Its worst then the lack of subscribers, then the unbalanced classes, then the incredible grind for commendations... to tell the truth, thats the real issue here! I'm wondering, in how many language you post threads on the web?

Don't worry friend, you don't need stroke to have brain function like a stone , ) Just for you: Jump skills unbalanced compared to the knights/warriors dmg output + there ac, defense and immune skills (but I'm not for nerfing) Sage is way to sensitive to banish here by channeling skills and root here in place (spec heals) (do you know how "emergency medpac" /"surgical probe" works? ) Shadow has a bunch of fansy "good looking skills on paper" but if your shadow is not in high end gear, you can forgot about it (recruit pvp, r49 moded pve geared classes > shadow in battle master or rakta) Hide is fun, when you don't wanna fight with npc's till your instas, or restart an open world pvp and it should have more upgrade then "Shadows Respite" and "Masked Assault" more tangible? Or you too square even for that? : ) By the way, may I ask what class is your main char Sir Hypochondriac?

, ) but if I start a thread like that, it will be just a simple qq thread (the 1000. qq thread connected to this skills: )) And the goal in my eyes would be not the nerf of this skills, or any other skill, but the upgrade of the consular class (the upgrade of there tools not dmg outcome from an existing skill or a bit more AC - it won't handle anything, just would lead to unbalance and would open threads like "Vicious Slash, Charge, Smash OP nerf them" - it don't serves the game in my eyes... The reason way I opened this issue in this chaotic way and not coming out with spec skills, ability, that it would be way to subjective and split by supporting my subjective view about that skill or not . But it would be more a lobby for your favorite class , ) So has no meaning. I'm more interested about the tools, what a class can use till game play, then the power of the existing spec skill. And ones more, we all know this classes, we all know how they work, what they can do with there tools and if some one not, then he should go and try them (its not a tutorial, ))

You are not next to them and you are not in a huge mess of AOE, till they don't want you to be there, the question is, can you move your self out if they focused on you? (insta move out, changing place in a fast way - mobility, by keep your self alive with heals till you flee)) Can you handle the upcoming dmg by your defense? Can you resist the cc for mobility? So what tools classes have and what not. Now you will say, its more chaotic, like it was, but its not about animation, RP, fantasy (this time) no matter that your fantasy project something, like you are a close combat jedi knight or telekinetic ranged sage, but more about the tools. Forget the background of the class this time and see the pure gaming tools, and if you have all this classes and you play a lot of pvp, pvp you will see what is my issue , )

And allow you to handle dmg (I don't care about the upcoming combo, that how this time)Ignoring the walkable terrain. So I can see its clear for both of us what ranged tool means in SWTOR , )

Sorry, that I didn't made separate advanced class pro/con, but this thread is for players with expert knowledge about the game, till they can handle an issue, make opinion about a thread like this. And I assume, that they all know well this classes , ) If the thread moves the community I will gladly involve my self to a discussion in deeper way, not just separate my opinion to advanced classes, to even for skills, gears, team play, solo play issues. In my eyes ranged combat in SWTOR means : when you see a character (opponent) in 10-30m range and you can interact with it, then the played class HAS the range ability. For me its no matter if the character shots space shuttle travels the seed of light, or handle a short knife by the game animation, if its within 4m, the ability is a melee one, if its has the ability to bypass 4 to 10 or 30 (35)by ignoring walkable terrain, then its a ranged. We can say, that Shadow has 10m skills, but he can't bypass that 10m for his 4m skills and from this reason has absolutely zero advantage till he can't make distance from 10 (lets don't count a 2 minute cool-down skill with 2 shots - force potency) to have shelter, or can't bypass the distance to use his 4m tools (I don't count force speed, till it can be used just in walkable terrain - not range)

Trooper - incredible high armor rate(tank), shield enable, ranged, can roll hybrid - tank can have good dps, dps can have great defense, healer - 70% mobility till use heal skills, guard (tank) con - healer a bit lacking till the nerf, Vamguard needs support till his survivor skills lacking vs other (Adrenaline vs Guarded by the Force) Jedi Knight - incredible high armor rate(tank), shield enable, dual wield enable, ranged (lets don't be mislead by the saber in there hands , )), can roll hybrid, most DMG, best DPS, best mobility, best immunities , guard (tank), CC with dmg (best CC), best CC immunity, can hide - have to go class con - no heal skills, boring to play Smuggler - ranged, can roll hybrid, 99% mobility till use heals, great DPS, high DMG, cover, can hide, most skills to use (fun to play), can have medium armor, best aoe CC con - worst immunity skills, don't have tank, cover is more a stationary target then shelter Consular - shield enable, guard, best support healer (?), force speed, can hide, good aoe CC from skill tree(Cinetic Collapse) con - nearly zero mobility till heal, can have just light armor, force shield obsolete till now days dmg, has the only tank spec that not ranged (30m attack) but has the worst armor rate like a tank , no chance for hybrid, zero self survivability for healer compared to other classes, "slave class" - to play effective you can interrupt and sacrifice with shadow dps, or support with heal other till the end of the world like sage. Thread? (I have lvl 50 from all classes)

Dear BioWare ! First of all, in my eyes this game is unique from other 1000+ mmo's from the reason, that it has incredible well designed maps, what brings atmospheric experience till our journeys! Best, most well made story line what I ever get from an mmo, with very well handled movie blocks! And last but not least its Star Wars based , ) BUT and its a great but... there are some things what makes me mad. Not just disturbing my online adventure a little bit, but makes me mad... Delete expertise and pvp gear from the game : (I'm a HC pvp player and I play in pvp server) People who play MMORPGs are like challenge vs other persons. I don't wanna go to deep way every one wanna get WH pvp set. So after lvl 50 the mindless grind begins. Sometimes I wanna go out from the fleet, but then I realize, that there is just a 2 hour left from my free time what I could spend by mmo (you know that mysterious RL , )) And I still need a bunch of commendations, so I stay and just queue for again, and again and again.... And I would like to go out and have ultimate fun, by adventuring in the great world of SWTOR, enjoy the open pvp in well built atmospheric maps and spice my journeys with a few quest and with the story line - by the way, this kind of game play would be not just fun, but the respect and use of few thousand hours of game development work. But you should grind for the WH gear (for + expertise) unless if you wanna RP the weakest creature in the galaxy and like a pvp player and who know the game mechanics well , you never will make a decision like this , ) To a pvp server you go for the open world pvp and for challenging other players, you play an mmorpg's pvp server, not a LOL, of an FPS round game because, you like adventuring and enjoy a story line like a background of your pvp game. In every planet after lvl 21 the pvp is allowed in the adventure map what you try to avoid, till you don't have that amount of expertise and you don't wanna RP the weakest creature of the galaxy. So insta, insta, wz, wz, wz.... till you uninstall... what is happened a few times in SWTOR 's history , ) To handle this (imo) expertise should be bane from the game, a bunch of new gear recipes, mods should be add and be able to loot till your journeys. (The gears should be absolutely mod-able in a creative subjective way, now its not like that) So ppl would go out and enjoy the well made maps, the Game! And they could not dodge "the game" from gear disadvantage, coz the gear what they should use to survive till there journeys would be loot-able from the maps, not by wz commendations. So its like you made a great mmo by few years of hard and and talented work and then you mad a rule in 10 minutes ( ok lets say made this brilliant idea by 1 week of brainstorming , )) that makes your players to avoid what is the value of your work, till they leave and you have to make the game FTP insta wz, insta wz, insta wz...... uninstall. And now, that you expect a bunch of new players, what do you think, how they will react to this existing WH geared opponents? (I bought and played the game till the day of release its not about me with this issue.) So you want us to gather commendation or you wanna gather the deserved money for your few years of hard work? If you want money and respect, then don't hide the beauty of SWTOR behind the curtains of expertise! Show us the journey what you built up! Dear player base, if you have the same opinion, or have any idea connected to the issue, please share.