Bregah
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Posts posted by Bregah
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I may be still new to the game but it still kind of bothers me how many people are judging this game when it is still new. New MMOs need time to become the good MMO people expect it to be despite how you may feel now.
It may be new, but that doesn't give the game the right to suck, which is what you are implying.
If it were new and still free, then by all means they can take as long as they want to fix things, but if I am going to spend $15 a month to play an MMO, then I'm going to choose to spend that where I think I'll have more fun. The newness of the game will never come into consideration when I'm thinking "fun".
As it stands now, I'm still having fun, but I'm having less fun that I was 2 weeks ago, as my server is clearly dying (not even always "standard" in prime time now). PvP is suddenly an avenue of potential fun that doesn't even exist for me 90% of my playtime.
I'm in a guild with over 20 50's, so generally hardmode FP's aren't hard to get going, unless we have a lack of heals around (I'm a tank, so lack of tanks actually makes me more desired), as when you couple a dying server with awful LFG tools, you find it very hard to pug people, especially since my guild is around 1/4 of all online 50's at any given time, and some of those other 50's (around 6 are still left) are begging people to queue for PvP as they only play for the PvP).
Like I said, I'm still having fun, but not as much as 2 weeks ago. Merge my server with 2 or 3 other similarly pop'd ones and I think my fun level would go up instantly (as it would feel like I was playing an MMO again).
Also, along the lines of "give it time so it can develop to be good", um...if there weren't so many subpar things that they have to fix/tweak/upgrade from launch (specifically talking UI, Ilum, lack of dual spec/LFG tools and the like), I might have faith that they WILL get it right.
But at the moment the update I can look forward to will give me resizable UI elements, and the video bills it as a big thing - brand new feature, and it likely won't be out until March.
That fact alone has me worried so much about Bioware's ability to run an MMO, but if you couple that with Ilum, both pre and post 1.1, and the near silence about PvP since 1.1, and I'm confident their PvP team is clueless as well, as it appears to me that they are doing absolutely nothing except letting PvP die (excepting some few servers here and there).
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We don't want a WoW-clone, or any other MMO clone, becuase that old standard is dead and beating. I like that BW is actually doing something different to break away from the mold.
Other than full voiceovers and cutscenes, what are they doing to break away from the mold? And I'll be truthful - while I do enjoy them, I enjoy them exactly ONCE.
Everything else in this game is a clone of other games (mostly WoW), but from about 4 years ago - in other words, a clone of other games before they made substantial (in the eyes of most) improvements.
The only innovative thing I have seen them do (in comparison to every other 2 faction MMO I've played) is include a same faction warzone. But it's the worst map of the 3, and with the faction imbalance, it gets old REAL FAST.
In most areas, I would say this game has taken a significant step backwards compared to others, other than the single player questing experience. The UI is worse than EQ 2's at their launch (in late 2004) in terms of flexibility and customization. It might even be worse than Asheron's Call's was in 1999, but I'm having hard time remembering what AC's UI was at launch.
The PvP system is a mishmash of WoW's and Warhammer's, but not done as well as either (other than the mentioned same-faction instance), and plauged with so many bugs/exploits/etc that I don't see how anyone could consider it "good" or even adequate. And the RNG bags are one of the worst methods of obtaining gear I've ever seen - in a system that aims to have "competitive" rankings. The only time I ranking system ever matters is if the competitors are equal in all areas, except their own skill.
Group content is the same as any other MMO (which is not surprising, and also not really too disappointing), but the method of grouping up is so cumbersome, without a guild, that I know it's putting quite a few people off. But then again my server is nearly dead, so if you're on a nearly full one, I'm guessing your experience is better.
The progression from 4 mans to ops is skewed to the point that the game pretty much NEEDS dual specs to have the progression make any sense. Four 4 man groups need 4 tanks, 4 heals and 8 dps, yet 8 man and 16 man ops groups largely need just 1 tank, perhaps 2, and just 2 heals. That setup is simply screaming for dual spec to be in the game, otherwise you need 20 people to gear up for 16 man Ops, or you force your tanks and heals to run double and triple the amount of FPs to gear everyone equally.
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I don't know how the overall sub rate is, but I know my server has had a pretty noticable falloff since the free month was over.
I don't think we've hit heavy for 2 weeks now, at least, and I've not seen the Imperial Fleet population hit 100 in at least 3 weeks.
8:30p EST on an East Coast server, M-Thurs night averages about 65 level 50's.
Level 50 pvp queue pops can take upwards of 1 hour if you queue after 10p EST, or 4 hours if you queue anytime before 6 p EST.
I was able to farm 120 armaments last Saturday night without seeing a single other person (Rep or Imp), granted, this was after midnight, but 90 minutes passed without another person on the server entering the PvP area on Ilum.
I am in a guild with about 1/4 of the online 50's (at any given time), so flashpoint groups aren't impossible to find, but pugging is getting very very hard to do (healers lacking - I'm a tank).
What this means for the game as a whole? Probably not much.
What it means for the people who play on my server? Our gaming experience feels dead.
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4 bars at 12 slots per bar equals 48 slots in total. Just checked my BH and they don't have anything close to more then 48 abilities that need to be Key-bound. And as you cannot make a macro I don't see the need for more.
Good for you.
As a Juggernaut, I don't have enough buttons for everything I want to put on them.
And it's 45, not 48, as the in-zone Voidstar map covers the top 3 on the right bar. Sure, you can make sure you put non-pvp abilities there, but honestly the top right location is where I want medpacks/consumables - things I would use in PvP.
Simply not being able to move the 4 given hotbars was an incredible oversight for an MMO (and I know it's being "fixed"), but only 4 hotbars was another incredible oversight, as is the lack of UI scaling/unable to not show portraits, etc.
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um... no one hangs out by the flashpoint portals. ur supposed to spam general chat for a group.
That is, according to the anti-LFD tool crowd, called "community building".
(I don't have much of an issue finding a flashpoint at 50, because I'm in a guild that has about 1/4 of my low pop server's 50's - but when we're short a heals - as I'm tank - low pop and no LFD tool and no dual specs means no Flashpoints)
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I'm 50 on my main (juggernaut tank).
I'll do warzones for my weekly, and daily if I can, but no more than that.
I'll stop PvPing on any 50 once it's noticably as fast to gear via PvE than PvP. My server is very low pop, so that day is coming soon.
Expertise (and resilience before it) is a terrible idea. 50's only bracket and no cross server queues means there can be hours between level 50 pops, so much of the time I as "what pvp?".
Being in the central area of Ilum for 90 minutes farming armaments and not single a single soul (either Rep or Imp) is..pathetic. But then again the PvP design on Ilum is equally pathetic.
Merge my server with 2 like-sized ones soon, please.
I will continute to use PvP for alts, until even the 10-49 bracket stops popping on my server, but 50 pvp, when it happens, is only an alternate gear path for raiding, as the champion pvp gear is simply better, in most cases for my Juggernaut, than T1 PvE gear, and generally faster to get (though RNG is awful).
I firmly belive that the team that designed the PvP in TOR is simply the worst developement team I've come across in any MMO I've played.
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Does anyone seriously believe BW wasn't aware of this topic before the game was released? I rather doubt they aren't informed about current gameplay mechanics in the different games of the genre.
My guess would be, that the reason many new MMORPG miss a few known and expected game mechanics at launch because they want to keep some cards in their hands for later use (updates with gameplay enhancements are always appreciated by the players).
While I tend to agree with you in this, that's a dangerous thing to try.
MMOs are very much "first impression" games. Not having key and/or common features from other games at launch creates a very poor first impression.
While I am still having fun (though as my server's population drops, so does the amount of fun I have in any given play session), I can not rememer an MMO lauching missing so many expected (for it's time) features, or having so many seemingly sub-standard versions of systems from other MMOs.
To take Rift as an example (which I played for the free month and 2 paid months) - in every way I can think of, systems-wise, it was a far superior game to TOR at launch. Interface, grouping method, performance/visual quality, bugs. I can not think of a system in TOR that, as it stands now, is better designed and/or implemented that the version of that same system in Rift.
But, for me, the world that Rift is set in holds nothing for me. The story was uninteresting, and I came away feeling that it was a very good clone of WoW, that looks better, but ultimately was an inferior (however slight) game set in the same basic setting - thus not worth moving to.
My first impression of TOR is that I love the setting of the story, and most of the stories, but the actual mechanics, system designs and performance (meaning bugs and also quality of gameplay vs system resources used) is actually pretty poor. Lack of dual specs, lack of useful LFG tools, multiple versions of sparsely populated planets, absolutely terrible PvP design (mostly with regards to Ilum) and the like - so much of the actual design and implementation in this game is, to me, subpar.
But it's set in Star Wars, and so I still have fun (more fun than I ever had in the much better, technically, Rift).
I do know quite a few people who have left this game due to missing what they (and many others) consider key features. I also know that my own server is nearing ghost town status compared to Christmas time, and it's not a very fun place to be if I need to pug someone (usually a heals) for something. Dual specs and/or LFG would most definitely help this feeling, but also server merges or free transfers.
If this ghost town status doesn't show signs of going away by the end of the 1st paid month, I can promise there will be more people that leave the game. I am not saying dual spec would save that, but I know that if dual spec was in the game (or a good LFG system), I would have spent less time waiting around doing nothing and more time playing the game. And that's coming from a tank in a guild with 1/4 of my server's prime time population of 50's (which is 15~17 of 60-70 on any given evening at 8:30 p EST).
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Ugh, all I know is.. I have held out for as long as I can on a dead server. I know re-rolling on a higher pop server, I would forget about how it was on a dead server.. I just cant help but ask myself, why is this my problem?
It shouldn't be.
I'm on a nearly dead server as well. I'm having fun despite the problems with the game, except when it comes to needing other people, and I don't have guildmates available.
My guild has roughly 1/4 of the level 50's online during prime time (15-16 out of 60-70), so usually we can group up together. But with no dual specs, an awful LFG system, and very low population, if a key role (usually heals) isn't online in my guild, many of us are hosed (I'm a tank, BTW).
I will not be re-rolling on another server. But what I can almost promise you is that as the end of the first paid month rolls around, I will likely simply unsubscribe. Very few warzone pops, nearly impossible to pug outside of my guild, and so many group H4's left undone across all levels.
Merging my server with 2 or 3 others of the same size seems like a no-brainer.
Unforntunately I get the impression Bioware will have to "learn" about this, as like so many other areas, they seem to not have taken into account lessons learned over the years by other MMOs.
I may be crazy, but less than 100 people on the Imperial Fleet at all times, and 65 or level 50's on at 8:30 p EST on an east coast server is, in my book, pretty dead at this stage.
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Ive had quite a few conversations with people saying that they prefer to do pre 50 PVP because its more fun and dont really care about the gear.
Just wondering if others have seen this trend?
Personally I prefer sub-50.
No stupid pvp stat, so it's easily more fun.
My 50 does enough to get the weekly done (may or may not get every daily done), but the moment my PvE gear is equal to Champion PvP gear, I will forgo 50 warzones entirely.
Sub-50 is simply more fun. You could say that's because it's less organized (it is), but it's also due to no expertise.
Even 10-50 groups were fun until expertise started showing up. I know when members of my guild were under 50, we would still queue as a 4 man and find other premade 4 mans that were sub-50 (or had a member or two that had hit 50). It was still fun then.
But expertise has killed it, IMO, for anyone who's not fully geared.
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I'd suggest holding tight...don't let the tanks in your guild get bored or drift away, trust me you'll need them very shortly.
I'd assume (and hope) that the next tier of raids will require off tanking, greater coordination, greater dps and competent healing. Much like you want.
If you were a dev, I'd be thanking you for making this post, but you're not, so why should I trust you?
Not trying to be rude, but I really don't want to "hope" the devs get it right. They already post so very little about stuff as it is, and I base my expectations on the future from Bioware on what they've already delivered.
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It's amazing how Bioware seems pretty much unable to learn from the mistakes of past MMO devs.
That does seem to be an overriding theme in this game across multiple systems.
On the thread topic - I'm a tank. My guild has, currently, 3 level 50 tanks. We figured 1 of us would be extra, but not 2.
I'm barely behind 1 of the tanks in gear levels. It's so close it's not really noticable. I'm pretty far ahead of the 3rd one. But that 3rd tank has made it clear he's unwilling to DPS, so this is going to cause an issue.
I have no problem swapping to DPS for raids, and am gearing up a DPS set, but would seriously like dual spec because of this (among many) issues in the game. If I know my role in my guild is to tank 4 mans, but DPS raids, for the love of god give me a 2nd spec.
Especially since we are trying to build to a solid 3 4 man groups most nights (heals are the issue right now). What's the point of 3 4 man groups doing flashpoints if 3 of those 12 (1 heals and 2 tanks) know they are simply not needed for raids?
WoW has this issue with 25 man raiding (you never need 5 tanks, and if you did, whatever fight that was would feel very clunky), but did 10 man raiding right. Why Bioware couldn't mimic this I have no idea. But they've demonstrated the ability to fail to mimic successful systems all across this game.
That being said, I'm still having fun when in-game, but I do wonder how long it will last.
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Got to love it when rather than face the fact that on some servers groups are difficult to put together for things someone chooses to insult people. Nice group of players this game has.
Myself, on my low pop server, I have no problems finding groups (Jugg tank) in my guild. The only issue my guild has is less 50 healers than 50 tanks, so there are times where we have extra 50's wanting to run FPs, but not enough heals. We have had 3 full guild 4 mans running at once occasionally. Dual spec would help with our spec issues, as sometimes with 16 50's online, we can only run 2 4 mans.
The issue is trying to PUG someone to fill up a 3/4 full guild group is near impossible, as my guild is around 1/4 the server's online 50 population at any one time.
The other issue is warzones simply not happening, and the failure that is Ilum.
The past 2 (Tues and Weds) nights, our level 50 server pop at 8:30 p EST was 68 (tues) and 66 (Weds). 15 and 16 of those, respectively, were guildmates.
Imperial Fleet doesn't ever hit 100 pop on my server.
If Bioware is waiting for me to voluntarily reroll on a higher pop server before addressing the server pops, I'm afraid what they'll get (from me) is a voluntary unsubscription instead. I simply don't want to level up another Juggernaut, no matter how fast it is. I've done it once, I shouldn't have to do it again just to play on a decently populated server.
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That's about the only point I think you're accurate on.
Anyway, you completely ignored my point that there are 12 east coast PvE servers that have light populations during prime time.
They should be merged, no questions asked.
EDIT: One of those servers is a test realm, so make that 11 east coast PvE servers with light populations during prime time. And a refresh of the server status page now returns only 10 east coast PvE servers with light populations during primetime; it's worth noting that the test realm moved to standard.
10 east coast PvE servers with lower populations than the test realm....
How can you say they don't need to be merged?
I'm on one of those low pop east coast servers - please merge me!
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So 1 am EST last night (I'm on an East Coast server). Sure, that's a little bit late, but not awful.
9 of us at the PvP quest giver (level 50), solo queued for Warzones. One never pops (I/we are Empire).
8:30 pm EST last night, log in, do a /who 50, and find 66 people. It was 68 the night before, so this is, generally, the level 50 pop on my server. 1/4 of those people are in my guild.
Last Saturday night, around 2 am, I go to Ilum to collect my 30 daily armaments. I'm 0/30 and 30/150 for the weekly. Leave at around 3:30 am 150/150, having not seen a SINGLE SOUL, Rep or Imp, the whole time.
As I mentioned up above, I have a pretty active guild (regularly 12-16 50's on in Prime Time and a bit after). We don't always have the right class balance to run more than 2 Flashpoints, but we have many active level 50's. I ran 2 last night, 2 the night before, etc.
But I have a dead server!
I'm not going to be a PvP nut in this game, but I'd like to be able to do it at times. Please merge my server with 1 or 2 or even 3 other similarily dead servers.
(I will unsubscribe before I reroll, so that's not an option)
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It doesn't help that Black Talon Hardmode doesn't give social points.
I've run it every day for over a week and still am social 1 (as well as Foundry a few times and Boarding Party).
Not sure why this is, I figured hardmodes would give the same rewards with regards to social and light/dark as normals.
But I can run BT normal, at 50, with a group, and get social...
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Nearly all of them past Drummond Kaas. (but I am not including the two level 50 dailies on Belsavis in that - my guild does them, and random people seem to be eager, as well)
There was just never enough people around to do them leveling up, or more likely, THE LOOKING FOR GROUP TOOL IN THIS GAME IS CRAP, even on a then heavy to very heavy server (first few weeks - now it's light to standard).
I do remember doing one on Nar Shaddaa, and in the end, the time needed to do it vs the rewards - it just wasn't worth it.
Flashpoints were the same leveling up - did Black Talon and Athiss, and that's it until 50.
(this is as a tank, so I was half of the hard to find roles needed - finding the other half was just impossible without mindlessly spamming /general and hoping, or messaging every potential healer in the level range, which I was not going to do.)
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My server really needs to be merged with another one (or 2!).
Despite all of the issues (and I think there is a LOT wrong with this game), I am still having fun. Intellectually, I don't believe I should be, but I am. I think it's all down to lightsabers, to be honest.
But my low pop server is not great.
At around 8:30 p EST on Tuesday night, the 24th, I did a /who 50 (this is empire side), and there were 68 results - 15 of them were guildmates.
I think at 8:30p EST on a Tuesday, this long into the game, there should be more 50's on a given server.
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It isn't that I don't understand the issue you are describing, but the solution isn't to introduce cross-server queing for the game. It seems like a server merge with another low pop server would be best.
Oh I agree, which is why I mentioned it.
But I suspect that server merges are the last thing Bioware wants to do, so for myself to get any enjoyment out of PvP, cross-server queues are the most likely way it's going to happen.
If I was offered a free transfer right now, I'd take it. If paid transfers came out right now for the same price in that other game, I'd probably do it. But I won't reroll when it's in Bioware's power to do something about low population servers (and mine was "heavy" in prime time the entire first 10 days that I played, but it's one of those that has had it's population dwindle pretty dramatically).
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ETA = Never. If you're waiting on cross-server anything, unsubscribe now. Bioware has said they do not want to implement cross server queues. This is a good thing.
It's only a good thing if every server has the population to support itself.
Many don't, including mine (and no, I don't want to reroll - I will unsubscribe before I reroll).
My server has enough queuers in prime time for 2 warzones at a time, max. We have 1 guild that is very hardcore PvP (a few of them are Battlemasters, and since no one ever goes to Ilum on my server, it's probably 99% from warzones). They queue as a premade, and don't lose.
What this has done is create a situation where everyone that's not in this guild simply queues solo until they get on their team 3 times, and then they stop queueing. Only one other guild queues as a premade 4, and they only win when they team up with the better guild.
I happened to be off work yesterday, and the weather was crap, so I did all my dailies and got my 9 weekly wins, as well. I probably entered 15 or so warzones (and 3 of them were vs Republic).
Of the dozen or so vs other Empire, the 2 best were the ones without that premade. The second of those started as 6 v 6, and was that way for 2 or 3 minutes. At that point the 4 man premade entered, 2 on each side (as they probably didn't want to wait 15 minutes to get in one). It was easily the best match of the day (ending 5-4 at time), as they weren't favoring each other - but actually going after each other.
But my point is, on a server such as mine - low pop and very low warzone participation at 50, the gear difference is such that you know, upon entering, whether you will win about 95% of the time. If you face Republics, you win (even a full on Empire pug), if you get the good premade guild, you win (they never queue more than 4 at once, ever), if you go against the good premade guild, you lose.
Most are ok with that, because if you queue solo, it seems you have about a 50% chance of teaming with the premades, so 5 or 6 queues and you should complete your daily - and that's all most people see PvP as now - a daily.
With Ilum so awful and expertise so dominant, I don't know of anyone on my server who actually "takes PvP seriously" as a competitive event. It's a joke, but it's a faster way than Flashpoints to get decent gear (removable mods, etc). But once people start getting raid drops, the warzone participation will drop dramatically (at least on my server).
So merging my server's queue with 3 or 5 other similar servers (or just merging the servers!) would spice things up and make it a bit unpredictable.
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Kill swapping on Ilum? Yes, I've seen in on my own server... But then were actually swapping at center.
I've heard guildees talking about it on my server, and mine is a low pop server where I've seen a grand total of 3 Reps on Ilum since 1.1.
And I was able to grind 120 armaments in one sitting without seeing a single soul (Imp or Rep).
Even on a server like mine kill swapping happens, because it's still faster than farming nodes.
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Never on my first character and on class quests.
Always on the second character of that faction. seeing how all the quests are the same and the game is so linear.
This.
I did all solo quests on my first character (though not all bonus series), except Corelia, because I was 49 when I landed there, and did only class quests.
On any alt of the same faction, I will most definitely be skipping any non-class quest I can. No real point to seeing things twice if I can have more fun doing flashpoints and warzones on the way up.
The only current issue I see with doing it this way is light/dark side points. But perhaps "gray" items will come in, like the devs hinted at. But the light/dark side is so..not interesting (and also so forced) the way it's implemented that I don't really mind not making the choices, because there comes a point (when you are 10k either way, and a gear or 2 depend on staying there), that the choice is made for you.
That's not exactly an exciting "choice".
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With "we" you mean yourself, I presume.
As the only options (when it comes to WoW and TOR) for playing, right now, is WoW now or TOR now, I don't understand why anyone would compare TOR now to WoW 7 years ago.
It's pointless because my choice of game to play are how they are NOW, so 7 years ago simply doesn't matter (except with regards to some "features" of TOR's are lacking compared to multiple games 5, 6, 7 or even 12 years ago).
To make a somewhat tenuous comparison - tires were originally solid rubber. Later on tubes were added, and tires became better.
But I don't think, if a new tire company showed up, and made tubless tires again, people would be like "Well what kind of tires did Goodyear make in their first year?".
Now I actually have no idea of Goodyear was making tires before tubless ones or not, but I hope you get the point.
However much I am enjoying playing this game (I attribute it mostly to lightsabers), I DO feel I'm playing an "old" game, in that I feel it's about 5 years behind the times - in that many of them feel just like systems other games had 5 years ago, but have since changed to something better, and that TOR is going to have to change them as well - but that they should have been making these changes in development.
Highest on the list is the awful UI, and next would be either/both dual specs and a dungeon tool. PvP - well that has (on my server) been a complete failure both pre and post 1.1, so I can't say much except that it was clearly designed by people who had no suspicion that factions would be imbalanced, or that people are efficient and look for the path of least resistance - in other words designed by someone who shouldn't be designing systems.
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I wish Ilum was like that on my server.
I was able to get 120 armaments Saturday night in about 90 minutes due to not seeing a single soul (Republic OR Empire) for the entire time. It would be nice if they spawned faster.
Actually it would be nicer if there were people from both sides there.
I did get a single message about another person entering the area (he was Empire like me, so no PvP fight was possible, unless node comeptition is considered PvP now), but he didn't approach the center.
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Since what Ilum is now is awful, it would just be better if the Empire was declared the Victor on Ilum, the Republic PvE quests were relocated to a hastily designed moon (perhaps a moon of Ilum), given some re-texted changes (so that Republic isn't shafted on level 50 dailies).
I would imagine if Bioware did something so drastic (at least a humorous way of acknowledging Ilum was a failure), they'd garner a bit of respect for admitting their mistake.
I only half-heartedly suggest this, because there'd need to be a mostly designed planet in their offices they could relatively (in MMO time) quickly develop into a completely different World PvP area, but with the faction imbalance on the majority of servers, I can't honestly see Ilum being any good for many, many months as they work on changes.
And in the end, if it's pop capped, it's really not open world - it's just a warzone that doesn't end when one side has too few players.
I'm sure this would never happen, as the combination of factors to allow such a thing are so incredibly unlikely to exist (a nearly finished planet that could quickly be converted to a workable open world pvp area in a game with such a huge faction imbalance, as well as Bioware's entirely understandable, however frustrating, reluctance to flat-out admit they royally screwed up.
But if a developer had the balls to basically come out and say "man, we REALLY effed this up so bad it's unrecoverable, so we're just going to have a sense of humor about it and completely change our future plans for open world PvP, add a few dailies for Empire in the destroyed Republic areas, and come up with a workable alternative" and actually pulled it off in a reasonable timeframe, I bet the PR Bioware would receive would be, on the whole, positive, in the long run.
More importantly they'd have to stay in constant communication with the player base. I was shocked at how little was said about Ilum by devs during the first few days of 1.1 in any sort of frank and candid manner. But when you make a mistake, and EVERYBODY sees it and points it out (even ahead of time, as the PTR forums will show), it's just better to come right out as soon as you can and be up front about it, instead of say nothing, and then when you do finally say something, it's PR gibberish about bugs (because it was untested) and the like.
To those judging SWTOR for now.
in General Discussion
Posted
The other thing that Rift lacked (which I admit, for me at least, Star Wars has) is an interesting world.
By that I mean that Rift's world may be interesting, but for me, it was so close to WoWs that it wasn't interesting ENOUGH.
Rift did have the best feature set at launch I've ever encountered, and if you could take Rift's systems designs and put them into TOR, I think you may have a game that rivals WoW.
But for anyone who likes/loves WoW, TOR's features/interface/systems are turgid pieces of poo, and I can't see many switching (unless they are looking to get away from WoW at nearly any cost - but if someone is looking to get away from WoW at any cost, Rift is easily the better designed game, albeit in too much of a similar world to WoW's for me).