please explain how someone can be terrible if their CC breaker is down and they get stunlocked to death and are unable to do anything? you can be the most skillful player to ever exist, doesnt matter if you have zero control over your character from start to finish and are unable to do anything to stop it.

bah, arenas are killing wow now. arenas were fun the first year, but there is a reason why arena participation dropped by 75% between burning crusade when they were first released and the next expansion wrath of the lich king. when everything was new and exciting and you could enjoy moderate success with any spec/combinations to a certain degree, arenas were fun. but when the arena metagame started to form, if you didnt play X spec of Y class in combo Z, dont even bother to queue no matter how skilled you are. some of my fondest pvp memories in wow were playing as strange comps. like shadowpriest/rogue/feral or triple warlock and actually enjoying a fair degree of success.

it could give me 100%, it could give me 0% or anything in the middle. do you see now the flaw in your argument? the fact that you used COULD instead of WOULD merely proves my point. if i pop oil slick, there is a chance that the next 3 attacks will miss. however, unless the opponent has enough accuracy to remove my ability to dodge any attack, the next 3 attacks could also miss even if i didnt use oil slick.

wait a second, beginning of wotlk was dominated by dks and paladins.....

only if we can throw sorcs down the pit when they lose a duel.

over an INFINITE amount of time, yes. are you saying that i am GUARANTEED for my oil slick to give me an overall 20% damage reduction over the course of its duration?

wait wait wait wait.... okay now, ive nearly hit gladiator as a resto druid (a spec that i never played prior and whose gear was two seasons behind) with a warrior partner. and my war partner was TERRIBLE. no shield, no stance dancing, all he did was tunnel. we still made it that high. now, ill admit a warrior in the hands of an exceptionally skilled player is DEADLY, more so than most classes with a really skilled player (hunter being the only other class where if played by the extremely skilled would make me tremble). but the fact that even terribads could achieve a high level of success as a warrior is kinda a black mark against the class. and stunheralds didnt help this.

....accuracy reduction does not equal damage mitigation.... the reasons are obvious. you can pop oil slick and have the next 3 attacks hit you, or they can also miss you. it is completely RANDOM with no input from your enemies affecting its outcome. not to mention oil slick is an extremely SMALL area that takes literally two steps to get out of. the ONLY part that is ACTUAL mitigation is the -4% damage from targets hit by flameburst and flame sweep CC =/= to mitigation because, for one, you can not put a number on this. also, CC is counterable.

warlocks did....okay against warriors until they made their selfhealing affected by mortal strike.

.........so your 50% has no actual basis? i could claim that my assassin reduces all damage from a group of enemies by 100% since he can punt them off the catwalk.

-every class does not have more utility, more control, and adds more to the team than ops. -sustained damage ill give you, but unfortunately your burst overshadows this. -ops and assassins add the MOST to their teams in civil war and void star -ops have a high amount of control, if they didnt, THEY WOULDNT BE ABLE TO STUNLOCK PEOPLE TO DEATH (and yes they still can do this to equally geared opponents) -in huttball, the utility/what you add to your team as a whole is not very important to the huttball metagame. the reason being that stealth, burst, and the ability to assassinate while locking him down is not that important when you can achieve the same result by punting the player into the pit and removing him from the equation for 15+ seconds. but once again, you are turning a blind eye to the WZs in which ops are one of the best classes in the game as stealth is a major gamechanger in civil war and void star.

i found it, good read. not ideal to balance dps around, but its a fair sight better than anything else we got to use.

....either you added an extra 0 to that 50% or for some reason you are running into a pack of enemies to use an aoe RANGED taunt which is not a good idea because a single aoe from those individuals will render your taunt moot.

hey now, rogues hated (frost) mages just as much.

you just answered the question. 1v1 is meaningless unless you are a stealther who is trying to ninja a node. sorcs are literally mandatory for huttball, which ever teams has more assassins and sorcs will generally win. civil war and voidstar, their ability to dps from range, their ability to run away when targeted, and their ability to create opportunities for caps or stop caps is effective. not overpowered, but effective.

1. leveling 2. low level pvp 3. huttball hmm....thats pretty much it for me. whoops, forgot that one. voice acting in this game is great, especially since VA has taken a dive lately in games. and nothing is worst than bad voice acting.

im honestly curious. without target dummies, combat logs, or dps meters, how do you know that ops are performing poorly in pve?

except...there is a reason to bring an op to civil war or void star, a really big one. if we are going to do a comparison to wow, it would be like if a class was weak in 2v2 and pve, but strong in 3v3 and 5v5. even that would be inaccurate as all WZs are of equal importance at this stage. also paladins were the bomb in pve in vanilla wow. they were the main reason why alliance smoked the horde in pve progression since paladins made everything easy mode. hell, they had the best buffs in the game that were literally game changers.

.......what? i wasnt around for cata, but rogues were great in wotlk. ret pallies? really? they were great for ONE maybe two seasons and downright terrible for the last two seasons. lets not forget that mutilate rogues were blatantly overpowered in wotlk for their ability to stunlock people to death. and BM hunter in burning crusade? hunters were the bottom tier class in EVERY bracket of arenas for ALL seasons in that expansion. and sure, druid/hunter was by far the most annoying combo to face, but for every 1 druid/hunter, there were 5 druid/warrior, druid/rogue, or druid/lock. and yes, a rogue was my first main (my feral druid was second). ill admit that i had a load of fun with him in vanilla and even BC wow, but the rogue class in general got really stale as they were the only class that did not change at all. especially in pve where they played exactly the same as they did 4 years ago. the only season in which rogues were weak was season 5.

and here i thought mages were the whiners in wow. things must have changed since i left in late wotlk.

okay, ive had a different experience from you. once again, im going to use an example from wow. years ago, i played as a horde feral druid. it was not a competitive spec, in fact the number of feral gladiators in the entire world was in the single digits (in game with...i think at the time 10 million players). anyways, this spec could however wreck warriors 1v1, one of the best competitive classes. found an alliance warrior who wanted to duel. I figure it would be an easy win. even against gladiator ranked warriors, i would have to try harder its true, but ill still carry the day. i got wrecked....horribly and i was one of the best ferals on the medium pop server (the feral fraternity back in those days was very small however). even using every single trick in the book, even a few underhanded ones, i still lost. He actually knew how to fight my class and knew everything about it. that may not sound shocking to you, but people (who were not ferals) that knew how to fight a feral druid were extremely rare, even at the very top. the reason was because a good feral was extremely rare (like an albino croc rare), and even then you didnt really have to know how to specifically fight one in arena since you can use common arena tactics with a fair degree of success. years later when feral was buffed, people STILL didnt know how to fight one, hell they didnt even know common counters against it. this same warrior would sell his services and partner with any class in order to get that person to gladiator rating (and he charged a lot of money). he actually had some streams where it showed him partnering with literally the worst of the classes and basically soloing the enemy team (2v2 arena). his partner, while he was playing a terrible class, was also just terrible at his class and was one of the worst players ive ever seen. they still easily made it to gladiator. granted, ive only met/fought 3 people in my 5 years in wow that would fit my description of top tier player, but they play at an entirely different level that im possibly capable of. maybe its different in FPS. although quite honestly CoD hasnt felt competitive since MW1. too much cheesing for my taste, too many campers/nade spammers.

no... what they have over you is more survivability, knockback, CC, and stealth.....on top of being able to run away. my level 25 assassin has more tools to survive than my level 50 pt. and lol, pyro pts have the worst survivability in the game, they have practially zero defensive tools. their energy shield is about as effective as a single sorc bubble with 6x the CD assassin/shadow are better than pts/vangaurd in every way imaginable.

well, then i guess we have a difference in opinion of what the top players meant. also, youtube videos....really dont show anything because the video can be editied or more specifically cherry picked unless it shows some sort of exploit. he may have a WZ where he wrecked face, and another 10 WZs where he got wrecked. but okay, you are talking about people, in my example, who would be in the gladiator range. now, i do believe pvp should be balanced around that (whatever it turns out to be in swtor) because it is a reasonable goal for the average person to achieve and it is high enough that most people would be happy with that.

in huttball? ill agree that there i little to no reason to take an op in civil war and void star, however, ops are one of the best classes. you would be a fool to pass them up. even better if he is paired with an assassin! the thing is, you are concentrating on one specific WZ while turning a blind eye to how powerful your class is in the other two. this is EXTREMELY disingenuous to the point where it shows blatant disregard for overall pvp balance. now, if you want your class to be better in huttball while making them weaker in voidstar and civil war, i would be all ears. hell, ill even silently applaud your integrity. and keep in mind, you are not the only class that is overshadowed by assassins.

ehh, this is kinda shaky ground. im going to use wow as an example. there were two common schools of thought as to what data to use to balance classes. some people wanted to use the top 10 teams on each battlegroup (i think it ends up being like 100 teams total) to balance around. another group wanted to balance around people in the gladiator range (top 100 or so teams on each battlegroup, think it might have actually been mroe than 100). now, the vast majority of people would be happy with being a gladiator, as it was something to brag about. the thing is, just as the pvp metagame changes between a scrub player and a good player, so to does it change between gladiator and the top 10 teams. let us be honest here, we are talking about people whose skill levels are good enough to let them make a living off of playing video games. i highly doubt anyone on these forums, myself included, has the potential to be that good. balancing around a bracket that the vast majority has no hope of ever seeing, in my mind, is not a good idea. add to this the fact that technically its a smaller sample pool. of course, in this game we have no data to use, not even a combat log.