Would it be possible to expain the reasoning behind this rule? I guess it boils down to what the goal of this thread is. If the participants only see it as a standalone competition with no relation to 'real' operations scenarions then likely imposing such a rule does make sense as otherwise for top performance always outside assistance is required. If, however, the goal is to gain insight that will help to gauge the relative performance of the various classes and specs compared to each other that rule is detrimental as it clearly favors classes and specs that either provide an armor debuff themselves or benefit less from it than usual. Typical examples would be Arsenal Merc/Gunnery Commando vs. Pyrotech Merc/Tactics Commando (one has the armor debuff, the other does not) or Carnage Marauder/Combat Sentinel vs. Rage Marauder/Force sentinel (one spends 9 seconds out of every 20 hitting a target with no armor anyways making the armor debuff less essential, while the other due to 30% armor penetration would profit even more from the armor debuff). Not to mention it makes it harder to compare different classes. I personally would be curious to know how big the gap between a Focus Sentinel and a Focus Guardian is, but the Guardian's armor debuff skews that picture. So why not allow at least the armor debuff? Bloodlust/Inspiration is trickier, as you would need one very specific class supporting you to pull this off. Also the flat 15% damage bonus it provides should benefit (or its absence harm) all classes and specs more or less equally. The only valid counterargument would be that this would make external help mandatory for top performance, which is a good point. Just a suggestion.

Paowee, two questions I'd like to ask: 1) Could you elaborate in a bit more detail when exactly in your rotation you are firing Corrosive Dart? Seeing how the base building block of the rotation is SoS - FT - SN- SN - FT - AB - FT - <free gcd> - Repeat the <free gcd> would seem like the best choice, as every other spot would mean fewer FT, and noone wants that. Only if you apply CD every time the <free gcd> comes up you will clip, as the above takes roughly 12,3 seconds. If you only do so every other time there is a lot of downtime on CD. 2) With "only" 100 energy aren't you running a big risk of dipping too low energy wise for Orbital Strike unless you have either Target Acquired or Adrenaline Probe available? Or is there some other trick I am missing?

You confused me there. If illegal mods would run out during aimed shot or charged burst, that also means it will run out during the gcd following explosive probe. So by the time probe is triggered there will be no illegal mods. What am I missing?

Could you please elaborate on what makes up this difference, as the key abilities and talents involved seem to be the same. Except for the Combat Focus <-> Zen substitution, but again Shi-Choo Zen seems to have an effect very similar to Combat Focus.

Are the Focus variants of Sentinel and Guardian really so different that they are the best alternative for one (Sentinel) and the worst for the other (Guardian)? If yes, where would that disparity come from?

Can't Master Strike trigger HoJ as well? Likely one Master Strike has a lower chance to do so than two Blade Rushes, but you make it sound like the chance is 0%. That is definitely true. However II would find it hard to believe that Combat Sentinels are the only ones resorting to such manipulative tricks and all Watchmen choose to play fair.

Thank you everyone - especially keyboardninja - for the precise elaboration on the Combat rotation. Some questions, though: 1) When is the best time to use Zen? Always save it to pair it with PS, or use it on CD? Does the answer depend on whether the 4 piece set bonus is available? 2) Maybe it is my inexperience with the spec, but why would Master Strike delay the HoJ proc? 3) I was led to believe by various posts in various threads that on pure sustained DPS the Watchman spec had a small lead compared to Combat. Then I came across this thread showing several Carnage Marauders claiming top spots. On the dummy no less, which should clearly favor Watchman as without an armor debuff the burns bypassing armor is an even bigger advantage. Is this just an anomaly caused by a lack of parsing Watchman Sentinels, or was the initial assumption wrong and Combat has at least equal DPS?

Just out of curiosity, since both specs are so similar: What is the key difference between Sentinel and Guardian that would allow a Guardian to perform better in Focus Spec?

I wholeheartedly second this. I just don't see the reason why the spec with the longest ramp up time in the game is punished that severely by break-inducing boss mechanics. Why not extend the buff to 30 seconds, or do as has been previously suggested and merely reduce the stack size by 1 every time the buff expires. Would that be so bad (ie. overpowered)?

This is actually incorrect for two reasons:. 1) Put in another Cull and Takedown before going to the repeat step. 2) Assuming that each dot ticks once every three seconds you are wasting weakening blast charges if you fire it before applying the dots, since by the time its 15 second duration has expired the dots woudl not have had the time to tick five times each. Therefore Weakening Blast should be used after applying the dots. Which leads to: Corrosive Grenade > Corrosive Dart > Weakening blast > Cull > Takedown > Series of shots > <1 GCD of filler> > Cull > Takedown > Repeat Of course I may be just as wrong my self, in that case feel free to point out the error of my ways. And this would be the rotation for a full Lethality spec.

Well, the 'problem' here is that MM snipers have no energy issues as long as they stick to their rotation. So what are you going to do with that extra saved energy?

Exactly. Which is why I am advocating a simulation, not a calculation. I do not know whether you ever played WoW and are familiar with the program Simulationcraft that was developed for that game, but suffice to say that was one great and helpful tool.

Did a little bit of math myself. The usual shaprhooter rotation of SS - TS - CB - CB - TS - AS - TS - <filler> - Repeat with two points in Black Market Mods takes 12,35 seconds to execute (assuming the filler is just a single GCD). Getting that down to exactly 12 seconds would be a DPS gain of about 3 percent, and that can be achieved with 214 alacrity. Quite doable. Of course swapping 214 surge for alacrity will in turn lower the damage of each individual shot. So what is better in the end? Only a good simulation can tell for sure. Gunslingers are the minority then with our talent that boosts Cunning by 9%. Combined with the 5% buff from consulars that makes skill augments the clear winner. Unless I misssed something.

Hmm, so from your experience what is a good range of crit rating to shoot for in order to minimize energy issues without sacrificing too much dps?

And once we rach that point, will it still be worth it to put points into Independent Anarchy for MM and Full Lethality Specs?

The sad thing is the 4 piece PvE bonus is almost worthless for SS. If you have no energy problems without it, what good is it supposed to do for you?

1) A game mechanics question that immediately occurred to me when you mentioned to use Illegal Mods/Adrenall/Click Relic right AFTER XS. Is it confirmed that the damage of DoT ticks changes to accomodate power changes that occur AFTER the initial cast is complete? I remember that in WoW DoT tick damage was locked in the moment the DoT was applied. Which was why on occasion it was a good idea to prematurely refresh a DoT in the last second of a power boost trinket's duration. Of course SWTOR can be different here, hence the question. 2) In your post on several occasions you use an 'Instant CB'. I am assuming this is a CB made instant by leaving and re-entering cover, using the Snap Shot talent. I am wondering, though, whether this is really worth it. After all CB only has a 1.5 second cast time, so there should be no gain by going from a 1.5s cast to an instant cast followed by waiting 1.5 seconds for the GCD to finish. Unless the target will be dead by the end of those 1.5 seconds. 3) Are there situations where it would be worth it to use Aimed Shot with less than two Charged Aim charges? Say in an encounter you had to move, interrupting your rotation. When you are finally back in cover you have one charge of Charged Aim up, Aimed Shot is off CD and Speed Shot has about 3-4 seconds left before it is available again. I am wondering if in this situation using Aimed shot with a slightly loger cast time would be the better choice rather then first using CB. 4) Is it worth it to go the Independent Anarchy route and/or use the 2 piece PvP set bonus (extra tick on XS) if I have no access to the old PvP armorings? If yes, which points should be dropped for Independent Anarchy? 5) Has anyone tested to go for Alacrity instead of Surge? SS seems like a spec that could benefit from this move. Con: No matter how much Alacrity you stack you won't get more than one Speed Shot and one Aimed Shot every 12 seconds, and with less surge those you get will not hit as hard, so maybe it is not such a good idea. Pro: Surge does have diminishing returns, so maybe it is beneficial to stack just enough Alacrity to be able to pull off the following:: SS -> TS -> CB -> CB -> TS -> AS -> TS -> CB -> CB -> TS ->Repeat with SS coming off CD right as that last TS fires, instead of the 0 Alacrity rotation of SS -> TS -> CB -> CB -> TS -> AS -> TS -> <1 gcd worth of filler> -> Repeat Squeezing in that extra TS might tip the scales.

Well, I am not really giving away the full 3 seconds on Force Scream since the more limiting factor for its use currently is not its CD but whether you have the two Savagery stacks. You are correct on the Impale of course, but even here your figure of 3-6k every three rotations has to consider that Impale is not skipped for nothing. Some other (likely inferior) damage skill is used instead, lowering the loss. A loss still, no doubt. So on to trying to mix it all up in one big mess of a rotation.

All these IFs and WHENs are what made me come up with that simplified Shatter -> Impale -> Force Scream -> Filler (Vicious Throw, Ravage, Rage builder, whatever) -> Repeat As long as you always use Shatter/Impale/Force Scream as a triplet in that order the main boundary conditions are automatically fulfilled. You will always have your two stacks for Force Scream, you will get the most possible Rampage Procs since the next Shatter is 10,5 seconds after the last Impale and as you said nothing is lost by delaying Vicious Throw or Ravage until all three are fired off. If only I would not delay Impale 3 seconds longer than would be necessary every time.

I am relatively new to Vengeance DPS, and as such I am wondering how you all handle the different Cooldowns on Shatter (12s) and Impale (9s). The rotation is a lot more compact when they are always used together, i.e. Shatter -> Impale -> Force Scream -> Filler (Vicious Throw, Ravage, Rage builder, whatever) -> Repeat, however this would mean 'loosing' 3s on Impale. The other option is to hit both whenever they are off CD, turning it all into a big mess. What are you doing?

To add to what the previous posters said (that pre 2.0 a bit of crit was not a bad idea) there is also the fact that Annihilation Marauders now got this new nifty little talent that generates a point of rage every time we critically hit a bleeding target. Therefore while the contribution of crit to the average damage per hit likely has gone down this may make up for it to some extent. Or not. Which a test could tell. Also, why is everyone treating Malice as a straight 2% crit per point, when in fact it only affects force attacks, i..e the bleeds?

All right, next question: I know the spec isnot built for it, but sometimes you nevertheless have to kill low HP adds. Like the small portals in phase 2 of the TFB fight. How do you proceed in such situations (other then respecc to MM), i.e. what shots do you use? A mini rotation of CG - CD - Cull, or something else?

I have been experimenting with the Hybrid spec for a bit now (who would not want to impress on the meters on single target fights ) and paowee put it together rather well. What so far is working best for me is to go DoTs -> 1st Cull -> 6 Seconds of other shots -> 2nd Cull -> RS -> Repeat A comment on that last RS: I have found that if I immediately reapply the DoTs after the second Cull then a) I will have to wait for the 1st Cull anyways b) I will clip IP So might as well do that gap filler before reapplying the DoTs and usually RS is the best choice there. Still I have at least two questions left: 1) When doing those "6 seconds of other shots", have you found it more beneficial to stay as close to those 6 seconds as possible and try to hit Cull as soon as it comes off CD since Cull is doing so much damage, or is it better to extend that 6 second window in favor of a bigger, more damaging shot like Ambush? 2) How do you manage to work in Orbital Strike without digging a big energy hole. I have found that I better don't even think about Orbital strike unless either EP or AP are off CD, and even EP is cutting it close at times (going 1st Cull -> EP -> OS -> RS -> 2nd Cull -> ...) Hints here are definitely appreciated.

Not only that, as long as it does not make your DoTs tick faster it also has no effect on more than 1/3rd of your damage. WoW learned that, there haste eventually did affect DoT ticking speed. Let's see how long it will take for the SWTOR designers to catch up.

It seems you have unfortunately and completely missed the point I was trying to make. Let me therefore try one more time, a bit more explicitly now: - DoTs per se in no way make a spec more suitable to movement heavy fights. - DoTs per se in no way make a spec easier to execute. As to what makes me think that way, just go back to the little thought experiment above. A little elaboration maybe on the second one. It is imho pure coincidence that currently the MM spec is the one that has to deal with the Followthrough mechanic. That could just as easily swing the other way. I still remember the time where the Affliction Warlock was the hardest to pull off DPS spec in WoW, with 4+ DoTs to juggle and some extra spells to boost them. Does this apply directly to the question which of the actual MM specs is best? No. But wrong reasoning is wrong even if it happens to lead to the right conclusion, and from time to time I like to point that out.